I'm Pretty Sure That Jesus Wasn't Talking About This

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quietthinker

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When He was talking about letting people slap us and just stand there and take it, I don't think He meant for us literally to become punching bags,.. so if that's why you guys don't believe in self-defense then that's just crazy in my mind. :rolleyes:
We have a non violent God...Jesus demonstrated this. When he said turn the other cheek, he meant exactly that.

So let me ask, why don't you think he meant what he said?
 
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Grailhunter

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We have a non violent God...Jesus demonstrated this. When he said turn the other cheek, he meant exactly that.

So let me ask, why don't you think he meant what he said?

So you think that our God is non-violent? You are wrong and I will prove it to you. Don’t get me wrong, I think the peace lovers and the sheep and the innocent are the best that Christ has to offer. So if you are a sheep, I am not asking you to change. But there is a reason that sheep have shepherds. There has to be those that will go the extra mile to protect them. They fight and bleed and die and when they come home they are ridiculed by the sheep. Par for the course…slings and arrows that the brave have to endure.

Ecclesiastes 3
1 There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens:
8 a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.

Certainly violence is best avoided but violence in itself is not evil or a sin. It all depends on the reason, the purpose, and the intent of the violence. Now when Christ walked among us…that is, God walked among us, He promoted none violence and no resistance to evil…let evil have its way with you and your family…and that occurred during the persecutions. Now He intended to avenge all that in the end…and Christian were told that his return would be quickly…soon…that they were living in the last days.

Well that did not happen. What did happen was that Christ moved to join Christianity with the most powerful empire on earth. The Roman Catholics were not pacifists and when the Protestants came along, most of them were not pacifists either. So did something change that made it so that the Church and Christians had to defend themselves? Was there something that the biblical writers misunderstood? Was there something that we misunderstood? A lot of water under the bridge. This is something that Christians as a whole can debate and opinions vary and that is fine. But there is no way of proving anything.

But as far as your statement that our God is peaceful, that I can prove wrong. There is a time for peace and there is a time for war and that is how God, has always operated.

Numbers 31-1-54 17-18 presented here and it starts out with Yahweh telling Moses to take full vengeance for the sons of Israel on the Midianites…
7 So they made war against the Midian, just as the Lord had commanded Moses, and they killed every male. [So then they addressed the children and the women.]
15-18 And Moses said to them, “Have you spared all the women? Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
35 and of the humans beings, of the women who had not known a man intimately, all the persons were 32,000.

Deuteronomy 20:13-17 This is actually one of the Mosaic Laws.
When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

Numbers 33:55-56
But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from you, then it will come about that those whom you let remain of them will be like thorns in your eyes and like pricks in your sides, and they will trouble you in the land in which you live. And just as I plan to do to them, I will do to you

Exodus 21:23-25
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Now Christ disagreed with this Mosaic Law and I also have issues with the Spirit of the Mosaic Laws but what do you think the Spirit of this Law is?
Of course there are other things to consider, Christ did make a scourge of small cords and drive out the money changers.

Luke 22:36 And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his cloak and buy one.
He was telling His Apostles to buy swords and in fact they did.

Matthew 12:29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.

Luke 11:21-22 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up his plunder.

You can read through Revelation and see a lot of violence, but here are some highlights.

Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 9:13-21 15-16-19 presented here.
So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million;
And the rest with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
 
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quietthinker

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So you think that our God is non-violent? You are wrong and I will prove it to you. Don’t get me wrong, I think the peace lovers and the sheep and the innocent are the best that Christ has to offer. So if you are a sheep, I am not asking you to change. But there is a reason that sheep have shepherds. There has to be those that will go the extra mile to protect them. They fight and bleed and die and when they come home they are ridiculed by the sheep. Par for the course…slings and arrows that the brave have to endure.

Ecclesiastes 3
1 There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens:
8 a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.

Certainly violence is best avoided but violence in itself is not evil or a sin. It all depends on the reason, the purpose, and the intent of the violence. Now when Christ walked among us…that is, God walked among us, He promoted none violence and no resistance to evil…let evil have its way with you and your family…and that occurred during the persecutions. Now He intended to avenge all that in the end…and Christian were told that his return would be quickly…soon…that they were living in the last days.

Well that did not happen. What did happen was that Christ moved to join Christianity with the most powerful empire on earth. The Roman Catholics were not pacifists and when the Protestants came along, most of them were not pacifists either. So did something change that made it so that the Church and Christians had to defend themselves? Was there something that the biblical writers misunderstood? Was there something that we misunderstood? A lot of water under the bridge. This is something that Christians as a whole can debate and opinions vary and that is fine. But there is no way of proving anything.

But as far as your statement that our God is peaceful, that I can prove wrong. There is a time for peace and there is a time for war and that is how God, has always operated.

Numbers 31-1-54 17-18 presented here and it starts out with Yahweh telling Moses to take full vengeance for the sons of Israel on the Midianites…
7 So they made war against the Midian, just as the Lord had commanded Moses, and they killed every male. [So then they addressed the children and the women.]
15-18 And Moses said to them, “Have you spared all the women? Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
35 and of the humans beings, of the women who had not known a man intimately, all the persons were 32,000.

Deuteronomy 20:13-17 This is actually one of the Mosaic Laws.
When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

Numbers 33:55-56
But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from you, then it will come about that those whom you let remain of them will be like thorns in your eyes and like pricks in your sides, and they will trouble you in the land in which you live. And just as I plan to do to them, I will do to you

Exodus 21:23-25
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Now Christ disagreed with this Mosaic Law and I also have issues with the Spirit of the Mosaic Laws but what do you think the Spirit of this Law is?
Of course there are other things to consider, Christ did make a scourge of small cords and drive out the money changers.

Luke 22:36 And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his cloak and buy one.
He was telling His Apostles to buy swords and in fact they did.

Matthew 12:29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.

Luke 11:21-22 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up his plunder.

You can read through Revelation and see a lot of violence, but here are some highlights.

Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 9:13-21 15-16-19 presented here.
So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million;
And the rest with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
The testimony of God himself on the mount of transfiguration was, 'this is my son, listen to him'. All other representations of God in past accounts were flawed ie, misrepresented but Jesus as the book of Hebrews states is the express image of his person.

Here we see a God who would rather die than kill.....here we see a God contrary to all human understanding, imagination and construct.....here we see a non violent God.....here we see the humanly unthinkable!....and I would go so far as to say even the demonic world were alarmed.

The God of violence is Satan and with his super intelligence has superimposed his own character onto our merciful God persuading men of all stripes that the Creator is violent.
 
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Grailhunter

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The testimony of God himself on the mount of transfiguration was, this is my son, listen to him. All other representations of God were flawed but Jesus as the book of Hebrews states is the express image of his person. Here we see a God who would rather die than kill.....here we see a God contrary to all human understanding, imagination and construct.....here we see a non violent God.....here we see the unthinkable!

I already described Christ's actions on earth as mostly non violent. I was responding to your statement that God is non-violent. And I proved to you biblically, that that was wrong...Old Testament and New Testament that God is violent. God was violent in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament He had His moments and Revelation shows that Christ will go to war against evil in the end.
 
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quietthinker

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I already described Christ's actions on earth as mostly non violent. I was responding to your statement that God is non-violent. And I proved to you biblically, that that was wrong...Old Testament and New Testament that God is violent. God was violent in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament He had His moments and Revelation shows that Christ will go to war against evil in the end.
Even the prophets could not see past a God of violence but Jesus who was the ultimate revelation of God revealed otherwise.
 

Grailhunter

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Even the prophets could not see past a God of violence but Jesus who was the ultimate revelation of God revealed otherwise.
Does this statement mean anything.
Are you thinking that it is not Christ at Armageddon?
I do not mind you having a belief, based on your opinion. Hey freedom of religion...
But I gave you a lot of scriptures proving that God the Father and God the Son...Trinity can be violent.
 
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quietthinker

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Does this statement mean anything.
Are you thinking that it is not Christ at Armageddon?
I do not mind you having a belief, based on your opinion. Hey freedom of religion...
But I gave you a lot of scriptures proving that God the Father and God the Son...Trinity can be violent.

Don't be in such a hurry to justify a violent God Grailhunter. The way Jesus disarms principalities and powers is by a method unfamiliar and unknown to men....he submits and absorbs the violence....he doesn't perpetrate it or respond with violence.
Jesus speaking says 'you have heard it said an eye for an eye but I say unto you, do not resist an evil man', so I ask, where did they hear it said? in Old Testament law. Jesus takes the superior position and states 'but I say unto you....' the 'but' challenges and supersedes their previous understanding.

An example of God's punishment, the punishment of Judas ....his death, but who killed him? didn't he kill himself?
Was it that God would not forgive him or was it that he refused to see that God would forgive him?

When Jesus finally appears in the clouds there will only be two groups of people; those who long for his appearing and those who cry for the rocks and the mountains to fall on them.....one group trusts in Gods judgement of forgiveness the other doesn't and suicides.....just like Judas.
 

quietthinker

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I would add as an aside, Gandhi didn't learn the non violent approach from the Hinduism he grew up with even though he identified as a Hindu....he learn't it from Jesus.....and changed that nations history
 

quietthinker

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@Grailhunter.....I understand the position I have put forward creates lots of questions in the light of the various texts you have quoted in post #102
A short answer would be there are other ways of understanding these texts.......ways that do not make God contradictory.
 
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Brakelite

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Does this statement mean anything.
Are you thinking that it is not Christ at Armageddon?
I do not mind you having a belief, based on your opinion. Hey freedom of religion...
But I gave you a lot of scriptures proving that God the Father and God the Son...Trinity can be violent.
Armageddon if understood correctly is not a battle between nations, not is it a battle between God and humans. It's a battle between God's people and the rest of the world. And God's people are not armed with guns and knives fighting off hordes of atheist barbarian globalist socialist left wing anti Trumpers.
God has not called us to live and behave like gentiles. We are different.
KJV Matthew 20:25-28
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The promise, and the inevitable destiny of sinners, is death. The responsibility for that death is not God. The promise to those who are His is that they shall stand in the midst of everlasting burnings; God is a consuming fire, it's your own fault if you can't stand in His presence. He has provided the way of escape. Your destruction if you reject Him is entirely on you.
 
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quietthinker

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The crucifixion was where the powers of good and evil met their climax and each displayed their character to the full.

The question, do we have a God who is consistent, one that does not change or do we have a God who is a carbon copy of all the Gods men have created.....one who is fickle and unpredictable?
 

Grailhunter

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Don't be in such a hurry to justify a violent God Grailhunter.

Neither of us can justify God...or judge God...kind of above our pay grade.
I just gave you the facts as laid out in the Old and New Testament. No offense...a lot of Christians do not like truth.
The discussion on eye for and eye and then turning the other cheek and not resist evil...He is disagreeing with the Mosaic Law...and that is not our law. But that does not mean that the Apostles did not understand the Gospel of love and peace. Why would Christ want blood on Christian hands, when He intended to take care of everything in the end. And at times Christ exhibited anger and violence in the Gospels.

I am not saying that Christ and the Apostles did not preach love and pacifism. What I have proven biblically is that God is not a pacifist. That I have proven, unless scriptures do not mean anything to you.

I understand the position I have put forward creates lots of questions in the light of the various texts you have quoted in post #102
A short answer would be there are other ways of understanding these texts.......ways that do not make God contradictory.

Understand this...the Bible does not condemn God. You do not have to mark out scriptures or stick your head in the sand. Truth does not offend God. You do not want to try defending God against the Bible....People get things in their head and when they run into truth, it offends them...Oh no! That could have never happened. Truth is truth, do not be afraid of it...God is not.
 
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Grailhunter

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The crucifixion was where the powers of good and evil met their climax and each displayed their character to the full.

The question, do we have a God who is consistent, one that does not change or do we have a God who is a carbon copy of all the Gods men have created.....one who is fickle and unpredictable?
I am the one that says God did not change. He was never a pacifist. As He said...a time for peace and a time for war. Armageddon will not be like powder puff football.
 

quietthinker

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Neither of us can justify God...or judge God...kind of above our pay grade.
When we reject Gods judgement on our behalf we are judging God as not worthy of our worship.
When we pray, hallowed is thy name, we justify God by saying he is worthy of our worship.
 

Grailhunter

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Armageddon if understood correctly is not a battle between nations, not is it a battle between God and humans. It's a battle between God's people and the rest of the world. And God's people are not armed with guns and knives fighting off hordes of atheist barbarian globalist socialist left wing anti Trumpers.
God has not called us to live and behave like gentiles. We are different.
KJV Matthew 20:25-28
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The promise, and the inevitable destiny of sinners, is death. The responsibility for that death is not God. The promise to those who are His is that they shall stand in the midst of everlasting burnings; God is a consuming fire, it's your own fault if you can't stand in His presence. He has provided the way of escape. Your destruction if you reject Him is entirely on you.

Those that die during Armageddon, that is not Christ's fault. Those that get cast into the lake of fire, that is not Christ's fault.
But there will be violence.
 
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quietthinker

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I am the one that says God did not change. He was never a pacifist. As He said...a time for peace and a time for war. Armageddon will not be like powder puff football.
God has never been a pacifist.....the incarnation is evidence of that
...and yes, Armageddon will not be powder puff football with humanity blaming and slaying each other and themselves.
 

Grailhunter

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When we reject Gods judgement on our behalf we are judging God as not worthy of our worship.
When we pray, hallowed is thy name, we justify God by saying he is worthy of our worship.

You are talking in circles...who is rejecting what? Who is judging God, I just got done saying we cannot. And who is talking about worship?

If you are a pacifist ...I am ok with that...if you tell me that God is a pacifist ...I have already given you the scriptures that prove you are wrong hands done....so now your debate is with the Bible...not me.
 
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