I'm Pretty Sure That Jesus Wasn't Talking About This

[amadeus]

Because Jesus came to die on a cross, so of course He didn’t fight back when they came for Him.

As someone posted, when Jesus was about to ascend to heaven, He told the apostles that when He was with them, He told them to take no purse or sword in their travels, but now it’s time to take both.

Romans 13 is pretty specific that Gods servants were to use a sword against evil doers:

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Shalom.

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: " Eph 6:17

 

[dev553344]

@April_Rose I think the point is to know when to fight, like the slave wars of the USA to free slaves, like God did in Egypt. And also to know when to have patience in Long Suffering and turn the other cheek, which is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-25).

 

[dev553344]

Let me explain my beliefs. If I'm in an argument, I like to be passive and not argue, thus turning the other check in a verbal sense. If I get slapped or struck just once out of anger, I won't fight back, no harm done. But if I'm attacked with the intent to harm me, then I will defend myself.

 

[amadeus]

@Grailhunter.....I understand the position I have put forward creates lots of questions in the light of the various texts you have quoted in post #102
A short answer would be there are other ways of understanding these texts.......ways that do not make God contradictory.

And when and if we both want and need to know other understandings according to God, He will share them with us!

 

[April_Rose]

And when and if we both want and need to know other understandings according to God, He will share them with us!

I asked you why you didn't think that patriotism and Christianity didn't go together and you never answered my question. :/

 

[Grailhunter]

I would say your debate is with the character of God.

No I am quoting scripture....why do some Christians have trouble with scriptures. You quote scriptures for the OSAS people and it is "Oh my God you are quoting from the legalist part of the Bible!"

s you are saying; one day he behaves like this and another day he behaves like that

I have corrected you once already. Do not put words in my mouth...I will spit them back at you.
I said God has never been a pacifist. He has not changed.

 

[Grailhunter]

I am an ex Muslim. I have no problem talking with Muslims. I am learning Christianity right now. When I'm done I'll be doing more of that.

That said, Jesus said "be shrewd as serpents"--it would be a breaking of this commandment for me, a White looking person who stands out like a sore thumb among them, to go preach the Gospel (unless I have some special gift to protect me). Better one of their own convert and secretly preach pretending to be an Imam (which happens).

Moreover, no one decides "I will go", God has to send them--not based off internet goading or a dare. That is foolish.


I'll leave that to the readers, who can read your comments for themselves, to figure out what you said.


Again, you joined their religion--they are authoritative in it not you.
If you disagree with them on their religion, saying they erred, guess which of you are wrong.


Well you go back and forth--you argue from the text, then argue against it.

Nope

 

[GracePeace]

Nope

Yup.

 

[amadeus]

I asked you why you didn't think that patriotism and Christianity didn't go together and you never answered my question. :/

We had just settled our differences on another subject. I do have answers but you may not like them. You did ask.

American patriotism only in a very ideal form in the minds of a few idealists may resemble slightly the ways of Jesus. Was our patriotism better in the past? What I know of history now and what I have experienced personally tells me, No! Of course I grew in a nice quiet small California town where the Mexicans, Filipinos and Japanese were my friends. [There were no blacks in that town.] In the first grade in school [about 1949], my very best friend was Japanese. I did not know it then but probably his parents and grandparents had been in American concentration camps because they looked too much like that acknowledged enemy. No due process of law even though they were natural born U.S. citizens who had lived all of their lives in the USA. Due process was suspended twice that I recall in spite of the Bill of Rights. Once was by FDR in WWII. The other it was done by one our best Presidents, Abraham Lincoln, during our Civil War. Both times it was illegal and finally declared unconstitutional. That belated Supreme Court action did not help the citizens who had their rights removed. Of course patriotic Americans supported the actions so the illegality it did not matter, did it?

The men who put together the U.S. Constitution with its first 10 Amendments [Bill of Rights] did a pretty good job and maybe some of them may have been guided in part by God, but their purpose fell far short of lining up with God and His Son at least as I know them. The aftermath?

The purposes and efforts of our leaders in the USA have had their ups and downs since it beginnings. Even in the best of times, they were not even close to what God's kingdom is supposed to be.

If you were a White Anglo Saxon Protestant [WASP] male living above the poverty level your lot for many years may have been pretty good... especially compared to those not in that group. So everyone wanted to come to America for land, opportunity, freedom and easier money.

For women, blacks, native Americans and other groups visibly different [Japanese, Chinese, Mexicans and so forth] how was it? Even white, well to do men, who were Catholic were second class citizens when it came to political leadership. John F Kennedy went against the odds as a Catholic even though he was a millionaire when he became a Catholic President.

I believed strongly in our government in the days of JFK, but I was naive and ignorant as well. When Kennedy was assassinated I was at the U.S. Army Signal school at Ft Monmouth, New Jersey. I was proud to be an American and to be an active duty soldier. It warmed my heart and spurred my patriotism to see everyone everywhere crying tears at his death, Our classes were suspended for the day when we heard of his death. The whole complement of the military post joined together in a parade in our best dress uniforms for our beloved and deceased Commander and Chief.

From there LBJ [President Johnson] sent me and most of my signal radio class to Viet Nam in 1964 . I did not volunteer but Pres. Johnson said only volunteers were going to Viet Nam so I must have. In spite of my doubts about our President, I did then volunteer for duty in the Dominican Republic during a crisis in that country as part of an OAS [Organization of American States] force sent there in 1966 at the instigation of the USA. Not a much later when I was a civilian college student another Kennedy brother and Martin Luther King Jr were assassinated. As a student and a Vet I was proud still but not all of my fellow students were proud of me as a very unpopular war was raging across the Pacific. I was still too naive to understand... why? They be crazy those student protesters. We were really working toward the greater good, weren't we? I thought so. I had U.S history in both elementary and high school, but a whole lot of facts and points of view were omitted from our text books.

I never liked Nixon as my governor in California nor as my President later. Smart perhaps but not a nice guy. When he did that which caused him to resign it made deep inroads against my faith in America as a great nation. How had such a man become President? What else was there? I believed in God already but it was a superficial thing for I did not really know God at all... In 1976 I met Jesus for real and began a slow and long journey toward God and His Son which along with it brought a whole lot of my own ignorance and naivety into the light. As God went "up" before me, America and mankind went "down". That message is in the written Bible, but surprisingly few who called themselves believers seemed to have received it... That was then and it really has not improved, Donald Trump notwithstanding.

Our first president venerated by nearly everyone of his time that mattered and many people today was a slave owner and never came out against slavery. That was OK for him and for others... But did anyone ask for the slaves' opinions?

Thomas Jefferson our 3rd President was also a slave holder and wrote some powerfully eloquent condemnations of slavery, but he never lived by what he wrote. His slaves were part of the reason he could live 'high on the hog' in his day. He would not free his slaves because it would have force him to change his life style. Even when he died, he did not free his own slaves as some other presidents did.

Lots of other Presidents, with most of them prior to Lincoln being slave owners. One of the most popular Presidents while actually in the office was Andrew Jackson. The so-called Civilized Tribes among the native Americans probably remember him best for what is known as the Trail of Tears. Those tribes were called civilized because they made the transition to the white man's way of life, buying property, farming, paying taxes to local and federal governments and so on. Under the leadership of Pres. Jackson their land was taken away from them and given to whole bunch of greedy white men, many of course well known to the President. The Indians? They were told to walk to Oklahoma from their confiscated homes in mostly the southern states of Georgia and Alabama. It was called the Trails of Tears because so many of those dispossessed people died along that long barren trail never reaching Oklahoma at all. Of course the civilized "Indians" were not the only ones to suffer loss at the hands of selfish greedy white men. Their uncivilized brethren of many other tribes farther west who were only uneducated heathen [not Christian] savages, so it was even easier to take away what they had.

Then there were other American patriots who dealt with Spain, Mexico and the Philippines. A principal leader in those instance was the first President Roosevelt [Teddy] with his Manifest Destiny policy. Following him the WASPs knew they were destined to rule and of course. no one should ever compare what they did with Adolf Hitler's Lebensraum policy toward Poland and any Slavic nations a few decades later. Was that policy better than his Jewish policy? Was our Manifest Destiny Policy strictly according to the teachings of Jesus?

But, we were always the 'good guys'. Didn't anyone ever watch the movies or read the history books carefully emphasizing all of our good points and our good causes?

 

[MatthewG]

Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.

Jesus Christ speaking to his disciples on the mount of olives; taught to them which was heard about around in their time, of around 30-33ad. He was telling the disciples a quote they had heard going around at the time of their living culture about how He spoke If someone does you wrong you do wrong to them, even if it is involving fighting.

He then goes on to speak about to not resist evil person

( if they desire something from you (Evil person; someone who might just have heart problems with greed, hate, anger, lust, whatever type of problem they are facing as Christians should not be resist and be understanding and discerning the actions of others in response with kindness, and compassion, and allow free thought. )

IF any abusive things are going on those should be addressed, especially if it is abusive of family members, or others, or children, because abuse is not good and should be addressed and found a solution so that the abuse stops and freedom can continue. (Especially in todays time inform the police)

He goes on then after saying If someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn the to them other cheek also; to me personally I believe that this has to deal with for and example if someone is lying about you doing something, and instead of seeking retribution you just do not care and basically let it go give thanks to God and pray for them.

Then He goes on to talk about people who may try to take you to court and try to get you for everything; to try and settle disputes quickly before they come to far out of hand, and a jumbled mess comes because of it.

 

[Grailhunter]

We had just settled our differences on another subject. I do have answers but you may not like them. You did ask.

American patriotism only in a very ideal form in the minds of a few idealists may resemble slightly the ways of Jesus. Was our patriotism better in the past? What I know of history now and what I have experienced personally tells me, No! Of course I grew in a nice quiet small California town where the Mexicans, Filipinos and Japanese were my friends. [There were no blacks in that town.] In the first grade in school [about 1949], my very best friend was Japanese. I did not know it then but probably his parents and grandparents had been in American concentration camps because they looked too much like that acknowledged enemy. No due process of law even though they were natural born U.S. citizens who had lived all of their lives in the USA. Due process was suspended twice that I recall in spite of the Bill of Rights. Once was by FDR in WWII. The other it was done by one our best Presidents, Abraham Lincoln, during our Civil War. Both times it was illegal and finally declared unconstitutional. That belated Supreme Court action did not help the citizens who had their rights removed. Of course patriotic Americans supported the actions so the illegality it did not matter, did it?

The men who put together the U.S. Constitution with its first 10 Amendments [Bill of Rights] did a pretty good job and maybe some of them may have been guided in part by God, but their purpose fell far short of lining up with God and His Son at least as I know them. The aftermath?

The purposes and efforts of our leaders in the USA have had their ups and downs since it beginnings. Even in the best of times, they were not even close to what God's kingdom is supposed to be.

If you were a White Anglo Saxon Protestant [WASP] male living above the poverty level your lot for many years may have been pretty good... especially compared to those not in that group. So everyone wanted to come to America for land, opportunity, freedom and easier money.

For women, blacks, native Americans and other groups visibly different [Japanese, Chinese, Mexicans and so forth] how was it? Even white, well to do men, who were Catholic were second class citizens when it came to political leadership. John F Kennedy went against the odds as a Catholic even though he was a millionaire when he became a Catholic President.

I believed strongly in our government in the days of JFK, but I was naive and ignorant as well. When Kennedy was assassinated I was at the U.S. Army Signal school at Ft Monmouth, New Jersey. I was proud to be an American and to be an active duty soldier. It warmed my heart and spurred my patriotism to see everyone everywhere crying tears at his death, Our classes were suspended for the day when we heard of his death. The whole complement of the military post joined together in a parade in our best dress uniforms for our beloved and deceased Commander and Chief.

From there LBJ [President Johnson] sent me and most of my signal radio class to Viet Nam in 1964 . I did not volunteer but Pres. Johnson said only volunteers were going to Viet Nam so I must have. In spite of my doubts about our President, I did then volunteer for duty in the Dominican Republic during a crisis in that country as part of an OAS [Organization of American States] force sent there in 1966 at the instigation of the USA. Not a much later when I was a civilian college student another Kennedy brother and Martin Luther King Jr were assassinated. As a student and a Vet I was proud still but not all of my fellow students were proud of me as a very unpopular war was raging across the Pacific. I was still too naive to understand... why? They be crazy those student protesters. We were really working toward the greater good, weren't we? I thought so. I had U.S history in both elementary and high school, but a whole lot of facts and points of view were omitted from our text books.

I never liked Nixon as my governor in California nor as my President later. Smart perhaps but not a nice guy. When he did that which caused him to resign it made deep inroads against my faith in America as a great nation. How had such a man become President? What else was there? I believed in God already but it was a superficial thing for I did not really know God at all... In 1976 I met Jesus for real and began a slow and long journey toward God and His Son which along with it brought a whole lot of my own ignorance and naivety into the light. As God went "up" before me, America and mankind went "down". That message is in the written Bible, but surprisingly few who called themselves believers seemed to have received it... That was then and it really has not improved, Donald Trump notwithstanding.

Our first president venerated by nearly everyone of his time that mattered and many people today was a slave owner and never came out against slavery. That was OK for him and for others... But did anyone ask for the slaves' opinions?

Thomas Jefferson our 3rd President was also a slave holder and wrote some powerfully eloquent condemnations of slavery, but he never lived by what he wrote. His slaves were part of the reason he could live 'high on the hog' in his day. He would not free his slaves because it would have force him to change his life style. Even when he died, he did not free his own slaves as some other presidents did.

Lots of other Presidents, with most of them prior to Lincoln being slave owners. One of the most popular Presidents while actually in the office was Andrew Jackson. The so-called Civilized Tribes among the native Americans probably remember him best for what is known as the Trail of Tears. Those tribes were called civilized because they made the transition to the white man's way of life, buying property, farming, paying taxes to local and federal governments and so on. Under the leadership of Pres. Jackson their land was taken away from them and given to whole bunch of greedy white men, many of course well known to the President. The Indians? They were told to walk to Oklahoma from their confiscated homes in mostly the southern states of Georgia and Alabama. It was called the Trails of Tears because so many of those dispossessed people died along that long barren trail never reaching Oklahoma at all. Of course the civilized "Indians" were not the only ones to suffer loss at the hands of selfish greedy white men. Their uncivilized brethren of many other tribes farther west who were only uneducated heathen [not Christian] savages, so it was even easier to take away what they had.

Then there were other American patriots who dealt with Spain, Mexico and the Philippines. A principal leader in those instance was the first President Roosevelt [Teddy] with his Manifest Destiny policy. Following him the WASPs knew they were destined to rule and of course. no one should ever compare what they did with Adolf Hitler's Lebensraum policy toward Poland and any Slavic nations a few decades later. Was that policy better than his Jewish policy? Was our Manifest Destiny Policy strictly according to the teachings of Jesus?

But, we were always the 'good guys'. Didn't anyone ever watch the movies or read the history books carefully emphasizing all of our good points and our good causes?

The United States is not perfect...but do not hold your breath trying to find a better country or one that considers God as it's guide...and of all the countries in the world, what other country supports Israel, at least when there is a republican president.

 

[amadeus]

The United States is not perfect...but do not hold your breath trying to find a better country or one that considers God as it's guide...and of all the countries in the world, what other country supports Israel, at least when there is a republican president.

I am not looking for a better country. I see no such place among carnal men. I am looking for a city which has foundations whose builder and maker is God!

 

[April_Rose]

You know for not being a Christian nation God's name is literally everywhere. In the pledge, on our currency and in many patriotic songs like "America The Beautiful," "My Country Tis of Thee," "God bless America," Etc.

 

[amadeus]

You know for not being a Christian nation God's name is literally everywhere. In the pledge, on our currency and in many patriotic songs like "America The Beautiful," "My Country Tis of Thee," "God bless America," Etc.

You apparently do not understand at all where I am or what I am saying much of the time. I am sorry for that. I wish I could communicate these things better, but God does know all of the answers. Stay close to Him and trust in Him first before everything else.

 

[April_Rose]

You apparently do not understand at all where I am or what I am saying much of the time.

I guess not. This song ring a bell? It literally talks about Christ in it.

 

[Grailhunter]

I am not looking for a better country. I see no such place among carnal men. I am looking for a city which has foundations whose builder and maker is God!

Well ya know...we will get there.

 

[amadeus]

I guess not. This song ring a bell? It literally talks about Christ in it.

Of course, sister, it is one of the first, if not the first Christian songs I learned to play on my harmonica many many years ago. That would have been in the 1960's after returning from Viet Nam and before I really met Jesus... I remember a young Texas man in Viet Nam who played the harmonic beautifully. The song he played that I loved was "Tammy" which was to become very popular after the movie with Debby Reynolds singing that song was a big hit. It was not a Christian song, but the man was one of two men I met in Viet Nam who loved God at the first.

The other one had a girl at home he was going back to marry. He was faithful to her months and then it all fell apart for him. He got drunk took up with one of the local prostitutes and stopped writing home. His parents got the Red Cross on his case because he wrote no letters to no one. From angel to devil.

My harmonica playing man from Texas also had a girl at home waiting for him. He remained faithful to her his entire tour and went home and married the girl. He never lost his love for God or his wife to be... He was one of my inspirations long before I really came to Jesus myself.

I came home and bought myself a harmonica and began to play and I learned "Tammy" and I learned "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" and I learned to love God.

 

[amadeus]

Well ya know...we will get there.

Yes, if we endure with Him to the end!

 

[April_Rose]

So then I guess I'm afraid that I don't get your point.

 

[Amazed@grace]

If I misunderstood you I apologize.

Wasn't it your intention to object to my rejection of violence based on Peter's violence in the Garden?

You said it.
Peter's violence in Gethsemene occurred when?

What was the point? He offered no violent resistance. Even if you reject what is obvious reality that he died and afterward was resurrected through prayer it means nothing--that wasn't my point. As you see, no violence occurred to protect him nor as a reprisal.

Try this on if you will.
The NT tells us of Jesus' birth.
Thirty years later it tells us of Jesus being Baptized and beginning his ministry.
What happened to 30 years of information pertaining to his life?

The point being, if Jesus and his apostles were passivists, remembering Jesus is the same God of the OT, why did he tell his disciples to arm themselves? Even if they had to sell something to afford the most formidable weapon of their time, the sword.

Peter didn't cleave the ear off the temple guard using harsh language. And a deft stroke like that, cleaving just the ear from the side of the guards head, is skill arrived at through practice.

Jesus cleared the temple of the money changers using a whip he fashioned with his own hands.
There are those who insist, staying with the idea Jesus and his Disciples were Passivists, that the scriptures never report he actually struck anyone.
Then why fashion a whip? When, with the power of God within him, Jesus could have spoken and cleared the temple.
But he used violence instead. What? He fashioned a whip with his own hands just to appear threatening?

The point being, we can't say passivity is the message of Christ when he and his disciples exhibited the opposite.