About the Signs of the Second Coming of Jesus

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,574
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, how do you that that is true?

I believe that the hints in the Bible clearly show us that the Beasts and the Little Horn of Daniel 7 are indeed angels as they are described as "the four winds of Heaven" and we know that metaphorically, wind is used to describe spiritual entities. These spiritual entities are able to entice people to inhabit their dominions and take on their primary characteristics.

Now where is your proof that they are not Angels?

Shalom

The first beast comes out of the sea, which represents humanity.

This Beast also has a proper name - a name expressive of a particular number, and that number ‘a number of a man;’ which cannot be conceived except on the idea of an individual person.” (Seiss)

With all this in mind, we agree with Seiss: “We would therefore greatly err from the Scriptures, as well as from the unanimous conviction and teaching of the early Church, were we to fail to recognize this Beast as a real person, though one in whom the political power of the world is finally concentrated and represented.”

The beast is not an ordinary man. He is called the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (Rev 11:7; Rev 17:8), and ordinary men do not come from there. “One who hails from that place must either be a dead man brought up again from the dead, or some evil spirit which takes possession of a living man . . . In either case, the Beast, as a person, is an extraordinary and supernatural being.” (Seiss)

ii. It may be that Satan himself takes possession of this man, and this is what makes him exceptional. This was the case with Judas, who was possessed by Satan (Joh 13:27).

Beast number two:

The beast rising from the land.

1. (Rev 13:11) John’s initial description of this second beast.

Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.

a. Then I saw another beast: This creature represents someone like the beast rising from the sea, because the same word beast is used to describe them both. At the same time, this beast is different.

i. They are different in origin, because one comes out of the sea, the other out of the earth.

ii. They are different in rank, because the second is subordinate to the first (causes the earth . . . to worship the first beast, Rev 13:12)

iii. They are different in appearance, because the second has a mild, “lamb-like” appearance.

b. And he had two horns like a lamb: The two horns may express the fact that this beast has authority in two realms, such as religious and political authority. Or, he may have two horns simply because that’s how many horns lambs have (two horns like a lamb).

c. Spoke like a dragon: Despite his lamb-like appearance, the message of the second beast is the same as the message of the first beast.

i. This second beast is called the false prophet (Rev 16:13; Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10), as someone distinct from the first beast (the Antichrist) and the dragon (Satan).

ii. With the dragon, the beast rising from the sea, and the beast rising from the land we have an unholy trinity. The dragon is the anti-Father, the beast rising from the sea is the anti-Christ, and the beast rising from the land is the anti-Holy Spirit.

2. (Rev 13:12-15) The second beast’s “job description.”

And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

a. He exercises all the authority of the first beast: The beast rising from the earth is essentially a Satanic prophet, who leads the world to worship the beast and the dragon.

i. It may seem fantastic to some that the world would be led into worship of a man and of the devil. But by nature, men have an undeniable religious impulse, and they also have an undeniable rebellion against God. What men want most is not the elimination of religion, but their own religion. They say they want the kingdom, but they don’t want God in it.

b. He performs great signs: The beast rising from the sea has the “signs and wonders” to back up his false teaching. A specific miracle of the false prophet is described: he makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. It is important that John highlights this miracle. In the eyes of the deceived world, it answers the miracle of the two witnesses, who minister during this period and are persecuted by the Antichrist and his false prophet (Rev 11:5). To the deceived world, this also puts this false prophet in the class of Elijah (1 Kings 18). We can imagine the false prophet as saying, “Let the true God answer with fire” and then performing his deceptive wonder.

i. “There is a supernatural power which is against God and truth, as well as one for God and truth. A miracle, simply as a work of wonder, is not necessarily of God. There has always been a devilish supernaturalism in the world, running alongside of the supernaturalism of divine grace and salvation.” (Seiss)

ii. In the days of the Exodus, Aaron performed miracles, and up to a point was matched miracle-for-miracle by the magicians of Egypt (Exodus 7-9).

iii. In Deu 13:1-5, God assumes there will be supernatural works on behalf of false prophets and idols, and He warns His people to judge a worker of miracles by their message, not only by their works.

iv. Jesus said that some who worked miracles - even in His name - were false followers and would perish in hell (Mat 7:22-23).

v. Jesus said that in the end times, false prophets would emerge and show great signs and wonders to deceive (Mat 24:24).

vi. Paul said that the Antichrist will come with all power, signs, and lying wonders (2Th 2:9).

vii. Knowing all this, the emphasis on signs and wonders among some Christians is frightening. Some Christians say or think, “You can really know where God is and where His power is by signs and wonders.” Thinking this way is to leave yourself wide open to deception. Years ago there was a large, multi-denominational conference of people who think this way, and their slogan - on a huge banner over the conference platform - read “Unity Under Signs and Wonders.” That’s a unity that Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet could all join in. Signs and wonders will be present among Christians, but the real marks of God’s work are love and truth.

c. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed: The beast rising from the earth will use a deceptive, animated image as the focus point of the worship of the beast.

i. It may seem strange to us to have the whole world give this kind of worship to the image of a man, but the personality cults of totalitarian governments in the twentieth century are a good example of this kind of worship. All we have to do is remember totalitarian states like the Soviet Union or Communist China, and their omnipresent pictures of Stalin or Mao and we see a pattern that will be ultimately fulfilled by the Antichrist.

ii. The image of the beast is animated in some way; it has breath and can speak. Whether the image is animated supernaturally or technologically, the result will be impressive. The Psalmist mocked idol worshippers because the idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not (Psa 135:15-16). This image of the Antichrist will be a different kind of idol, because the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

iii. This idolatrous image is what Jesus, Daniel, and Paul spoke of as the abomination of desolation (Dan 9:27, Mat 24:15, and 2Th 2:3-4). It is an idolatrous image set up in the holy place of a rebuilt temple; it is an abomination in the sense of being supreme idolatry, and it is desolation in the sense that it will bring the judgment described by the seals, trumpets, and bowls

iv. This is the summation of the power of the Antichrist, whose authority ends after forty-two months (Rev 13:5). This marks the halfway point of the final seven years of man’s rule of this planet. The Antichrist’s power ends as soon as it peaks.

v. This is not a recent understanding of this passage. The first commentary we have on the Book of Revelation, written by Victorinus in the early church, says of this Rev 13:15: “He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles.”

NOTE: the above is excerpted from the David Guzik commentary, for Revelation 13.

Be blessed.
 
Last edited:

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,574
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No such things as a Millennial Kingdom on Earth, Jesus Christ dissolves the earth by fire at his return


The earth is not destroyed- it is burned by fire, then restored- the new earth is the restored earth - just as the earth was once destroyed by water, but it’s not a new planet, it won’t be a new planet when destroyed by fire.

After Jesus returns and destroys the armies attacking and destroying Jerusalem in Zechariah 14, God and Jesus dwells forever in Jerusalem, and the nations such as Egypt that were left alive come up into the city, and worship.

If it’s a new planet, how are the nations that are left alive, who aren’t Christians because they live outside of the city of God, get to the new planet?

Also scripture says twice - world without end, amen.

Be blessed.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,854
3,275
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The earth is not destroyed- it is burned by fire, then restored- the new earth is the restored earth - just as the earth was once destroyed by water, but it’s not a new planet, it won’t be a new planet when destroyed by fire.

After Jesus returns and destroys the armies attacking and destroying Jerusalem in Zechariah 14, God and Jesus dwells forever in Jerusalem, and the nations such as Egypt that were left alive come up into the city, and worship.

If it’s a new planet, how are the nations that are left alive, who aren’t Christians because they live outside of the city of God, get to the new planet?

Also scripture says twice - world without end, amen.

Be blessed.
As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ


(Then Cometh The End) As (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,854
3,275
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The earth is not destroyed- it is burned by fire, then restored- the new earth is the restored earth - just as the earth was once destroyed by water, but it’s not a new planet, it won’t be a new planet when destroyed by fire.

After Jesus returns and destroys the armies attacking and destroying Jerusalem in Zechariah 14, God and Jesus dwells forever in Jerusalem, and the nations such as Egypt that were left alive come up into the city, and worship.

If it’s a new planet, how are the nations that are left alive, who aren’t Christians because they live outside of the city of God, get to the new planet?

Also scripture says twice - world without end, amen.

Be blessed.
Curtis There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)


2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ScottA

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,919
2,570
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The ten virgins parable is the wedding supper of Jesus, at His second coming, per Matthew 25:13.

Cross reference Revelation 19, the wedding supper occurs, Jesus appears on a white horse with the believers who’ve been raptured behind him on horses, and the battle of Armageddon occurs, then Satan is bound a thousand years, then the millennial reign begins.

I will repeat my statement that I had made to Charismatic Lady: -

I am assuming that your Pre-trib bias is causing you to miss the significance of the End Time Prophecies, particulars those having an impact on the Nation of Israel. In the Matt 25 Ten Virgins parable we are told of a fleeting visitation of the Lord to the face of the earth to gather and to enter into a marriage relationship with Israel once more. The Lord comes to the door, enters into the wedding feast and the door is shut after Him until He comes again to Judge the people of the earth in the Great White Throne room. You have a need once again to go back and read very slowly all of the scriptures so as to connect all of the dots and not just the dots that you want to satisfy your private conclusions.

As for when the battle of Armageddon occurs, it is actually before the fulfilment of the parable of the ten virgins. We are not told in this parable that anyone else actually came with Christ. Christ's second coming is not until the end of the Millennium Age. The Wedding supper associated with the parable of the Ten Virgins, occurs very early during the Millennium Age.

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,919
2,570
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The first beast comes out of the sea, which represents humanity.

This Beast also has a proper name - a name expressive of a particular number, and that number ‘a number of a man;’ which cannot be conceived except on the idea of an individual person.” (Seiss)

With all this in mind, we agree with Seiss: “We would therefore greatly err from the Scriptures, as well as from the unanimous conviction and teaching of the early Church, were we to fail to recognize this Beast as a real person, though one in whom the political power of the world is finally concentrated and represented.”

The beast is not an ordinary man. He is called the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (Rev 11:7; Rev 17:8), and ordinary men do not come from there. “One who hails from that place must either be a dead man brought up again from the dead, or some evil spirit which takes possession of a living man . . . In either case, the Beast, as a person, is an extraordinary and supernatural being.” (Seiss)

ii. It may be that Satan himself takes possession of this man, and this is what makes him exceptional. This was the case with Judas, who was possessed by Satan (Joh 13:27).

Beast number two:

The beast rising from the land.

1. (Rev 13:11) John’s initial description of this second beast.

Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.

a. Then I saw another beast: This creature represents someone like the beast rising from the sea, because the same word beast is used to describe them both. At the same time, this beast is different.

i. They are different in origin, because one comes out of the sea, the other out of the earth.

ii. They are different in rank, because the second is subordinate to the first (causes the earth . . . to worship the first beast, Rev 13:12)

iii. They are different in appearance, because the second has a mild, “lamb-like” appearance.

b. And he had two horns like a lamb: The two horns may express the fact that this beast has authority in two realms, such as religious and political authority. Or, he may have two horns simply because that’s how many horns lambs have (two horns like a lamb).

c. Spoke like a dragon: Despite his lamb-like appearance, the message of the second beast is the same as the message of the first beast.

i. This second beast is called the false prophet (Rev 16:13; Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10), as someone distinct from the first beast (the Antichrist) and the dragon (Satan).

ii. With the dragon, the beast rising from the sea, and the beast rising from the land we have an unholy trinity. The dragon is the anti-Father, the beast rising from the sea is the anti-Christ, and the beast rising from the land is the anti-Holy Spirit.

2. (Rev 13:12-15) The second beast’s “job description.”

And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

a. He exercises all the authority of the first beast: The beast rising from the earth is essentially a Satanic prophet, who leads the world to worship the beast and the dragon.

i. It may seem fantastic to some that the world would be led into worship of a man and of the devil. But by nature, men have an undeniable religious impulse, and they also have an undeniable rebellion against God. What men want most is not the elimination of religion, but their own religion. They say they want the kingdom, but they don’t want God in it.

b. He performs great signs: The beast rising from the sea has the “signs and wonders” to back up his false teaching. A specific miracle of the false prophet is described: he makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. It is important that John highlights this miracle. In the eyes of the deceived world, it answers the miracle of the two witnesses, who minister during this period and are persecuted by the Antichrist and his false prophet (Rev 11:5). To the deceived world, this also puts this false prophet in the class of Elijah (1 Kings 18). We can imagine the false prophet as saying, “Let the true God answer with fire” and then performing his deceptive wonder.

i. “There is a supernatural power which is against God and truth, as well as one for God and truth. A miracle, simply as a work of wonder, is not necessarily of God. There has always been a devilish supernaturalism in the world, running alongside of the supernaturalism of divine grace and salvation.” (Seiss)

ii. In the days of the Exodus, Aaron performed miracles, and up to a point was matched miracle-for-miracle by the magicians of Egypt (Exodus 7-9).

iii. In Deu 13:1-5, God assumes there will be supernatural works on behalf of false prophets and idols, and He warns His people to judge a worker of miracles by their message, not only by their works.

iv. Jesus said that some who worked miracles - even in His name - were false followers and would perish in hell (Mat 7:22-23).

v. Jesus said that in the end times, false prophets would emerge and show great signs and wonders to deceive (Mat 24:24).

vi. Paul said that the Antichrist will come with all power, signs, and lying wonders (2Th 2:9).

vii. Knowing all this, the emphasis on signs and wonders among some Christians is frightening. Some Christians say or think, “You can really know where God is and where His power is by signs and wonders.” Thinking this way is to leave yourself wide open to deception. Years ago there was a large, multi-denominational conference of people who think this way, and their slogan - on a huge banner over the conference platform - read “Unity Under Signs and Wonders.” That’s a unity that Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet could all join in. Signs and wonders will be present among Christians, but the real marks of God’s work are love and truth.

c. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed: The beast rising from the earth will use a deceptive, animated image as the focus point of the worship of the beast.

i. It may seem strange to us to have the whole world give this kind of worship to the image of a man, but the personality cults of totalitarian governments in the twentieth century are a good example of this kind of worship. All we have to do is remember totalitarian states like the Soviet Union or Communist China, and their omnipresent pictures of Stalin or Mao and we see a pattern that will be ultimately fulfilled by the Antichrist.

ii. The image of the beast is animated in some way; it has breath and can speak. Whether the image is animated supernaturally or technologically, the result will be impressive. The Psalmist mocked idol worshippers because the idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not (Psa 135:15-16). This image of the Antichrist will be a different kind of idol, because the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

iii. This idolatrous image is what Jesus, Daniel, and Paul spoke of as the abomination of desolation (Dan 9:27, Mat 24:15, and 2Th 2:3-4). It is an idolatrous image set up in the holy place of a rebuilt temple; it is an abomination in the sense of being supreme idolatry, and it is desolation in the sense that it will bring the judgment described by the seals, trumpets, and bowls

iv. This is the summation of the power of the Antichrist, whose authority ends after forty-two months (Rev 13:5). This marks the halfway point of the final seven years of man’s rule of this planet. The Antichrist’s power ends as soon as it peaks.

v. This is not a recent understanding of this passage. The first commentary we have on the Book of Revelation, written by Victorinus in the early church, says of this Rev 13:15: “He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles.”

NOTE: the above is excerpted from the David Guzik commentary, for Revelation 13.

Be blessed.

The evidence that you provided that the beasts are not wicked fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. angels, is not contained in your post.

Perhaps Isaiah 24:21-22 may provide a clue for you to determine the truth,

Shalom
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,574
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
JESUS said: John 2:v.19-21

19 Jesus said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. - This will fulfil literally from now on -
21 But he spake of the temple of his body. -The Church-

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one Day.

From JESUS until now has passed two complete Days or two thousand years, we are living in the beginning of the third Day , exactly in the beginning of the first century of the third millennium.

Philippians 3:v.20-21

20 For our conversation is in heaven
(heaven? Ephesians 1:v.3); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.

Yes His body was resurrected on the third day,
The evidence that you provided that the beasts are not wicked fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. angels, is not contained in your post.

Perhaps Isaiah 24:21-22 may provide a clue for you to determine the truth,

Shalom

Well, I guess you missed that the first beast comes out of the SEA which is symbolic of a sea of humanity , and the mark of the beast is THE NUMBER OF A MAN, for just two relevant facts that you missed.

The only fallen angel connection with the A/C beast, is he’s possessed by Satan when He’s fatally wounded$ in the head, and returns to life, since Satan is a fallen angel.

Baruch HaShem Adonai.
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,574
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I will repeat my statement that I had made to Charismatic Lady: -

I am assuming that your Pre-trib bias is causing you to miss the significance of the End Time Prophecies, particulars those having an impact on the Nation of Israel. In the Matt 25 Ten Virgins parable we are told of a fleeting visitation of the Lord to the face of the earth to gather and to enter into a marriage relationship with Israel once more. The Lord comes to the door, enters into the wedding feast and the door is shut after Him until He comes again to Judge the people of the earth in the Great White Throne room. You have a need once again to go back and read very slowly all of the scriptures so as to connect all of the dots and not just the dots that you want to satisfy your private conclusions.

As for when the battle of Armageddon occurs, it is actually before the fulfilment of the parable of the ten virgins. We are not told in this parable that anyone else actually came with Christ. Christ's second coming is not until the end of the Millennium Age. The Wedding supper associated with the parable of the Ten Virgins, occurs very early during the Millennium Age.

Shalom

First of all, my eschatology is mid trib, pre+wrath, pre mark, and premillennial, and it’s not a bias, it’s biblical.

Secondly the new marriage covenant, i.e., the new covenant with the Houses of Judah and Israel, per Jeremiah 31, has already occurred.

Hebrews 8 states Jesus IS the mediator of the new covenant, then quotes Jeremiah 31 to show which covenant Jesus is mediator of.

And yes, the new covenant is also a marriage covenant, just as the old one was a marriage covenant, that ended when God divorced Israel for spiritual adultery in Jeremiah 3:8.

Baruch HaShem Adonai.
 

GISMYS_7

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2017
4,425
1,759
113
southern USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The earth will be cleanessed by fire and made new AFTER the 1000 year reign=== satan will be loose for a very short time when he will lead his last rebellion against God and God will defeat satan and all evil will be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Curtis and Jostler

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Albert Barnes and JFB commentary’s basically ignore verse 2, but David Guzik commentary says this:

b. After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up: Hosea prayed this full of confidence in God’s love and power to restore. In the prayer, there is a shadowy prophecy of Jesus’ resurrection on the third day. The context supports this wonderfully; on the cross Jesus was torn and stricken for our sake, yet He was also gloriously raised up on the third day.

I like that also. However, Hosea is a prophet. The use of "day" is more than likely prophetic time of either a year or a thousand years. The last sentence of verse three shows me that it is a 1000 years. The sign of Jonah is said to relate to His three days from crucifixion to resurrection. Jesus didn't mention Hosea, so I will have to go with not a literal 24 hour day which in prophecy is specified as morning and evenings, or evening and morning. I will go with the first and second coming of Jesus and the timing of the outpouring of His Spirit.

He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.

Therefore, that is not only the first and second coming of Jesus, but of the outpourings of the Holy Spirit. We are one of the last generations to receive this latter rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit to ready His Bride for His second coming.

cc: @Oseas
 
Last edited:

Oseas

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2019
1,280
160
63
87
Joinville
Faith
Christian
Country
Brazil
Jay, you might be interested in a prophecy that is actually a day for 1000 years.

Hosea 6:1-3
Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us; (2,000 years) On the third day He will raise us up,(resurrection and 2nd coming and 1000 year millennium) That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know, Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth. (1st and 2nd comings of Christ.)


That is your private interpretation of Hosea 6:1-3. This passage is speaking of the two ages where God has turned his back on the Nation of Israel, and at the completion of the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers on their children and their Children's children, during the third and fourth age of their existence, God will raise up the Nation of Israel once more to re-establish the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nations and His Possession among the nations, covenant and will make it like new again for them with subtle changes, so that they will live in His sight

Jay Ross, That is your private interpetation of Hoseas 6:v.1-3, this passage is combined with John 2:v.19-21:
19 Jesus said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

21 But he spake of the temple of his body. -the Church-Eph.1:v.21-22 and 1Cor.12:v.27-31, among others Scriptures.

In His mind, JESUS was speaking of His Church that He would go to build in three Days. Don't you think that this is marvelous? Well, the third Day has already gotten, and the words of JESUS will really fulfill LITERALLY hence forwards or from now on and the days will be shortenned.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one Day.


From JESUS until now has passed two complete Days or two thousand years, we are living in the beginning of the third Day , exactly in the beginning of the first century of the third millennium.

The third Day exactly coincides with the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium that we have just entered. We are
living right at the beginning of the first century of this last millennium or the seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, and JESUS
will fulfil LITERALLY what He said day after day, even being invisible, for a while evidently.



God will raise up the Nation of Israel once more to re-establish the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nations and His Possession among the nations, covenant and will make it like new again for them with subtle changes, so that they will live in His sight.
I am assuming that your Pre-trib bias is causing you to miss the significance of the End Time Prophecies, particulars those having an impact on the Nation of Israel.

What prevails is the Word of God, not human conceptions, opinions, imaginations, speculations, conjectures, and so on.

Revelation 14:v. 17 to 20
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth (Israel); for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth
(Israel), and gathered the vine of the earth(Israel), and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was (will be) trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.



Romans 9:v.20 to 23

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,754
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, the beginning. The last 7 years are dedicated to Israel to come into the Church. But there are protected and unprotected Christians that go into the GT. You believe they will be raptured, but I haven't seen your proof. How will anyone "endure to the end," and "are alive and remain" if they are already raptured at the beginning of the GT? And with a strong delusion on them, who is it that will become a Christian during that time besides national Israel that is clearly spoken of in Scripture?

Simple they are new believers that will be kept safe.

As for the strong delusion, you are simply assuming and forcing your assumption upon SCripture that it means each and every gentile on the planet. There is no warrant for it.

As for this protected/unprotected hypothesis? That also is an opinion you are trying to force into Scripture.

As for the proof of a pre trib rapture. I recommend you read this short manuscript that can explain it better than I.

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf
 

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As for the strong delusion, you are simply assuming and forcing your assumption upon SCripture that it means each and every gentile on the planet. There is no warrant for it.

I'm not forcing anything. Fullness or completeness of the gentiles is obvious to me and should be to anybody. The gospel was to go the the Jews. When they rejected Him, gentiles were grafted in and the Jews were partially blinded UNTIL the fullness of the gentiles came in, and then all Israel will be saved. Israel has always been God's chosen nation.

As for the proof of a pre trib rapture. I recommend you read this short manuscript that can explain it better than I.

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

Thank you. I'll read it if it makes any sense and uses Scripture. But just as you say I force meaning, that is what I have found pre-tribbers do, so I'll let you know what I think. I printed a copy to read later.
 
Last edited:

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,754
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm not forcing anything. Fullness or completeness of the gentiles is obvious to me and should be to anybody. The gospel was to go the the Jews. When they rejected Him, gentiles were grafted in and the Jews were partially blinded UNTIL the fullness of the gentiles came in, and then all Israel will be saved. Israel has always been God's chosen nation.



Thank you. I'll read it if it makes any sense and uses Scripture. But just as you say I force meaning, that is what I have found pre-tribbers do, so I'll let you know what I think. I printed a copy to read later.
I am sure you will see that the author uses a lot of Scripture and biblical proofs. thank you for opting to read it.

I agree that many pre-tribbers force verses to fit a pre trib rapture. As a bible teacher and specializing in eschatology, I have taught my classes over the years that the worst enemy of a pre-trib rapture are many who believe in a pre-trib rapture!

I fully agree in the concept of the fulness of the gentiles. It is biblical! Where we disagree is on the timing of when that fulness takes place.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,781
2,436
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am sure you will see that the author uses a lot of Scripture and biblical proofs. thank you for opting to read it.

I agree that many pre-tribbers force verses to fit a pre trib rapture. As a bible teacher and specializing in eschatology, I have taught my classes over the years that the worst enemy of a pre-trib rapture are many who believe in a pre-trib rapture!

I fully agree in the concept of the fulness of the gentiles. It is biblical! Where we disagree is on the timing of when that fulness takes place.

Yes, I disagree with you, as well. The fulness of the Gentiles takes place on the last day, when Christ returns for his Church. The idea that Christ has different plans for Christians in Israel than he does for Christians in other nations is absurd and unbiblical. I do agree with your sense that a remnant of Israel will be prepared for salvation in the endtimes, whereas the majority of Jews will be judged and removed. I also only hold to a 3.5 years final Tribulation--not a 7 years Tribulation supposedly taught in Dan 9. But we each have our own convictions--I'm just sharing mine.

There is no paper that can convince me that Pretrib is biblical, though I'm happy to try to answer every question Pretrib poses in its defense. After 50 years I've never seen any real evidence that Pretrib *Theology* is taught in the Bible. It is always tried to be proven *allegorically.* And that doesn't fly with me. As Walter Martin used to say, if the Holy Spirit wants to actually say something in the Scriptures, He just comes out and says it without ambiguity. He doesn't have a "speech impediment!" ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Truth7t7

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,754
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, I disagree with you, as well. The fulness of the Gentiles takes place on the last day, when Christ returns for his Church. The idea that Christ has different plans for Christians in Israel than he does for Christians in other nations is absurd and unbiblical. I do agree with your sense that a remnant of Israel will be prepared for salvation in the endtimes, whereas the majority of Jews will be judged and removed. I also only hold to a 3.5 years final Tribulation--not a 7 years Tribulation supposedly taught in Dan 9. But we each have our own convictions--I'm just sharing mine.

There is no paper that can convince me that Pretrib is biblical, though I'm happy to try to answer every question Pretrib poses in its defense. After 50 years I've never seen any real evidence that Pretrib *Theology* is taught in the Bible. It is always tried to be proven *allegorically.* And that doesn't fly with me. As Walter Martin used to say, if the Holy Spirit wants to actually say something in the Scriptures, He just comes out and says it without ambiguity. He doesn't have a "speech impediment!" ;)

Well the new covenant is made with Israel, that is one different plan. The fact in Ez. 20 God forces the nation of Israel into the bond of the covenant is another difference. The fact that in Zech. 12 God allows 2/3 of all Jews to be killed during the trib and purifies the remaining 1/3 to receive Jesus as Messiah is another difference. The fact that Jesus said to Jews that they would not see Him again until they say blessed is he that comes .... is another difference. I can go on with many other examples.

Teh fact that Israel rules over the world in the millenial kingdom is another difference. We all get saved in teh same way, but that doesan't mean we all have the same roles or purposes in Gods plan according to Scripture.

I will agree that the bible does not say that the rapture occurs "pre-trib', "mid-trib", "post trib" etc.

But instead of me simply regurgitating teh biblical facts in that manuscript I linked to CL why don't you read it for yourself? All I did was present words just like if I typed them.

And I cannot answer as to what you say is "pre-trib theology" as I do not know what you fully mean by that.

But the bible does give many implications for a pre trib rapture and a definitive statement for a pre trib rapture as well as an indirect explicit reason why the church will not be in the tribulation.

1. 1 Thess. the church will be delivered form the wrath to come. Only the "trib" is known as the wrath of God and the Lamb.
2. The purposes God has given in SCripture for the tribulation period.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,854
3,275
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
First of all, my eschatology is mid trib, pre+wrath, pre mark, and premillennial, and it’s not a bias, it’s biblical.

Secondly the new marriage covenant, i.e., the new covenant with the Houses of Judah and Israel, per Jeremiah 31, has already occurred.

Hebrews 8 states Jesus IS the mediator of the new covenant, then quotes Jeremiah 31 to show which covenant Jesus is mediator of.

And yes, the new covenant is also a marriage covenant, just as the old one was a marriage covenant, that ended when God divorced Israel for spiritual adultery in Jeremiah 3:8.

Baruch HaShem Adonai.
Curtis your claim of Mid-Trib isnt biblical as you claim

The Church will be present on earth to be eyewitnesses of the tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, as Luke 21:25-28 clearly teaches below

How is that Mid-Trib Below Curtis?

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,854
3,275
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But the bible does give many implications for a pre trib rapture and a definitive statement for a pre trib rapture as well as an indirect explicit reason why the church will not be in the tribulation.

1. 1 Thess. the church will be delivered form the wrath to come. Only the "trib" is known as the wrath of God and the Lamb.
2. The purposes God has given in SCripture for the tribulation period.
A Pre-Trib Rapture Of The Church To Heaven Is Found No Place In The Scripture

The Church will be present on earth to be eyewitnesses of the tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, as Luke 21:25-28 clearly teaches below

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

GISMYS_7

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2017
4,425
1,759
113
southern USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Believers will be raptured before the great tribulation. Believers are not appointed to God's wrath=the great tribulation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
  • Revelation 19:6-8 NKJV Jesus said we should watch and pray to be counted worth to escape the soon coming evil times. “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:36 NKJ