new version of OSAS?

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<No, I was not free to please God before I was a new creation in Christ.>>>

Why not? Why do you say you are not free to please God before you were a new creation in Christ?

While you seem to give the impression that you do not please God before you were made a new creation in Christ bu quoting Hebrews 11:6, that is different from the matter of whether you are or you are not free to please God before you were made a new creation in Christ.

Tong
R3527

What's your point here?

I could not please God before I was saved. Now I can. I used to be a slave to sin, now I'm not.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Not just what that scriptures then says was a choice for all the world to make, but for the children of Israel.

But yes, the command now to repent unto God and towards faith in Jesus Christ or not, is a choice between life and death.

Care must be taken in our take of scriptural passages.

Tong
R3518

Yes, indeed, but the covenant of law does play a part in our understanding of the millennial kingdom and the judgment of angels, of powers, of principalities, of kings, of the spiritual hosts of wickedness in this age. Jesus set the standard of judgment. The words which He spoke are the standard of judgment and for all creation.
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. John 12:48
For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. Matthew 7:2
James reiterates and expands upon the same:
So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:12-13
Now, it can not be that those beings created as ministers to creation, those rulers created on the 4th day, those who have been witness to history and have seen and heard the testimony of God in the person of His Son, should be granted salvation by faith and renewed in the image of God without first becoming men. The just shall live by faith and faith is not of things seen, but of things unseen, and of the promises of God. For spiritual beings, not born of flesh, this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
The decree from of old:
28 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God:
“Because your heart is lifted up,
And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god,
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god
3 (Behold, you are wiser than Daniel!
There is no secret that can be hidden from you!
4 With your wisdom and your understanding
You have gained riches for yourself,
And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;
5 By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches, And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),”
6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God:
“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.
9 “Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.
10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.’ ” Ezekiel 28:1-9
The proclamation is not given yet, but clearly issues from the Son of Man, and we are His body, and the Spirit is His voice. The proclamation is not for the church, but from the church. The proclamation is for those outside the covenants but judged through the standards of the covenant. The proclamation is given to all creation, to the heavens above, the Earth below, and all that pass through the waters of the deep, and its summation is "Fear God and Live."

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
1 Thessalonians 2:20 For you are our glory and joy.

That is the sense of verse 19. It is different to what reward is spoken in 1 Cor.3:5-16

No, it's not different. The reward for the effective and successful labor of planting and watering the field of God, and building the building of God is the crop that grows and the building that is built. The people the co-worker of God ministers to is his reward.....if those people make it through the judgment. That's why the laborer in the field and building of God should be careful how he plants, waters, and builds. You want to do that in such a way so as to receive a reward.......them.

Yes, they are different.

Also, your post there does not show us that they are the same. It’s just a repeat misuse of the passage n 1 Cor. 3:9-15.

Tong
R3528

 

[TheslightestID]

Not that I’d rather not be clear. But that I’d rather that I won’t waste time on such tactics or behavior.

Tong
R3515

Of course you won't "won't waist time" verifying you were wrong...

Its getting very hard to take you seriousely.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And in your take of the passage, what becomes of the people whom you take to be as hay, straw, or wood? In your take, these people suffer fire, because they were taught not the truth, yet those servants who build them to be so, escape to not suffer fire. Sure sounds off a pretty loud alarm.

Paul also says in the passage that the worker in the field and building of God who destroys the building of God will himself be destroyed.....

If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him... 1 Corinthians 3:17
​

Not building people up into those who can not pass through the coming fire of judgment because you are lazy, ineffective, or the focus of your gospel is worldly gain, etc. is one thing. But leading people astray with another gospel that can not save is altogether another thing.

You aren’t addressing my argument.

Instead, you bring up another issue. So please address my argument against your take of 1 Cor.3:9-15. Or do you not have a defense to give?

Tong
R3529

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Paul is saying the co-worker of God either raises people up in a genuine salvation that can carry them through the judgment to come, or they don't. >>>

So, I did understand you correctly. That their work raises people up, which people may suffer fire, if they were raised to be as hay, straw, or wood, and while they won’t even if they had raised them as such.

So, yes. A clear misuse then of the passage.

You have heard of fake believers before, right? There is no reward for the laborer in the building of God for raising up fake and insincere believers. Some are going to believe your message and heed the warnings of scripture, others are not. The ones who do not will be purged by fire at the judgment. And so they will not be on the other side of the judgment for you to boast over or glory in and be your crown of achievement. I know this chaffs with your theology—the theology the church has taught us—but this is plain scriptural truth that has evaded our teachers and leaders. That's why we need to read the Bible for ourselves and learn it, not learn the prepackaged theologies of men.

How does one raise up a fake and insincere believer?

And it seems to be that you forget what the passage says what happens to the one who builds with hay, straw and wood. Is he one who is a laborer for building up fake and insincere believers?

Tong
R3530

 

[michaelvpardo]

Christ is the foundation of the building of God. And all the people of God are built on top of him.

...fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. Ephesians 2:19-20

...you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house... 1 Peter 2:5
​

But there is falseness planted and built into the field and building of God, the result of fake and ineffective, or inadequate gospel messages, and ungodly teachings.

...at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. And they will throw them into the fiery furnace... Matthew 13:40-42
​

Now if any of this falseness in the kingdom that gets burned up at the end of the age is the result of your labor in the field and building of God you yourself may be saved (assuming you weren't actually tearing down the temple of God), but those people you ministered to who were found to be false and not able to withstand fire won't be around to be your crown of reward in the kingdom. You'll be there, but your work, the result of your labor, won't be. Sorry. No crown of joy, glory, and boasting for the labor of the co-worker of God that produced no lasting results. So be careful how you build!

Close, but just off a bit. The building of God is the church and Paul's admonition was about being careful how you build the church. Yet, the church stands because the stones are not cut with human hands, but each is a tabernacle of the living God. The church stands to confront the antichrist with the truth, with a gospel of repentance and faith in God. The church stands until the last two witnesses fall, and then the resurrection of the just, and then the judgment, the marriage feast of the lamb, the hagiyah of God, and then the fullness of the kingdom for a thousand years, and then the final test of God's word with the release of Satan, and then the great white throne judgement, when all the books are opened, and all the secret things of the heart are revealed.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Nope.

<<<All he's saying is true disciples follow him. There's nothing there about always and forever holding to Jesus' teachings.>>>

Then you are perhaps reading a different bible. My bible says “if you abide in my words…” That sure denotes remaining and continuing in His words.

The really sad part about believing in Osas is you will never be able to see that the verse, and many others, does not have to mean what you see it means. That's why I call Osas a cult. It locks the mind in a preprogrammed mode of understanding that not only rejects other viewpoints, but can't even see them!

True disciples obey Christ's teachings, abiding in them. Fake ones do not. You're adding your Osas bias into the passage and insisting Jesus is saying the true disciple of Christ will ALWAYS AND FOREVER abide in his teachings.

30 As Jesus spoke these things, many believed in Him. So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:30-31​

A true disciple of Christ believes, and then does what he says. That's how you can tell a real believer from a fake one. Real believers retain Christ's words. That's all he's saying. He's not writing Osas doctrine and saying true believers will always believe and will always retain and obey and learn his word. You have added that to the passage.

Please continue properly addressing the issue as you have done so far and not go back to arguing by ad hominem or saying an opinion of what you think about osas or non osas or whatever you want to put the blame on and move to put up another issue.

In the passage, we have Jesus telling the Jews who believed Him, that if they abide in His words, they are indeed His disciples. Scriptures says they believed. Yet what Jesus told them in verse 31, tells us that their kind of believing does not make them true disciples. He told them that abiding in His words is what would make them His disciples indeed. As you can see, abiding, that is, remaining and continuing in His words has to do with believing.

Many may believe in Jesus, as did those Jews back then. But if their believing is one that does not remain and continue, what do you say they are, except that they are not true disciples, right?

Tong
R3531

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, tell us, is God your co-pilot or what?

Pilot/ co-pilot is a poor analogy. I think the picture of God as the owner and Captain of a ship and me as the navigator, reading the instruments and obeying the Captains orders, is a better analogy.

Whatever analogy you like, the question before you boils down to this. With regards whether one is saved or not, who do you say is in control, him or God? And if he had been saved back then, with regards whether he is kept saved and remain saved, who is in control, him or God?

Tong
R3532

 

[Ferris Bueller]

what becomes of the people whom you take to be as hay, straw, or wood?

They get thrown into the furnace at the end of the age.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

these people suffer fire, because they were taught not the truth

Or, they did not obey the truth they heard.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

...yet those servants who build them to be so, escape to not suffer fire.

As long as the servant believes and obeys the truth he won't go into the fire. Those he instructs may go into the fire, though, if they do not obey the truth taught to them, or if the servant is a well meaning but misguided servant who teaches them things that they then follow but which results in them being hay, wood, and stubble at the judgment. Type 2 Osas is a perfect example of that.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yes, they are different.

Also, your post there does not show us that they are the same. It’s just a repeat misuse of the passage n 1 Cor. 3:9-15.

Tong
R3528

Are you not my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 9:1​

...my brothers, whom I love and long for, my joy and crown... Philippians 4:1

...who is our hope, our joy, our crown of boasting, if it is not you yourselves in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 20You are indeed our glory and our joy. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Many may believe in Jesus, as did those Jews back then. But if their believing is one that does not remain and continue, what do you say they are, except that they are not true disciples, right?

Right. But you can't see that it doesn't have to only mean what you say it means. I'm not changing a single word of it. You're adding Osas bias to it and taking it to mean that a person believes and then never stops obeying Christ as a disciple. I simply read it and see that it says that after someone believes and they continue in the word that means they're a disciple of Christ. Obviously, if someone believes and then doesn't continue in the teachings of Christ beyond when they believed they aren't a disciple of Christ.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Secondly, I don’t know of a scale or standard such as you have that tells me one is an ongoing liar or not.

And that's the point. So I'm interested in how you define the difference between the sin of the believer and the sin of the unbeliever....

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.​

I am sure that you don’t take that passage as saying that the salvation of Christians is by not doing such things.

Now regarding your concern, there is no difference between the sin of believers and unbelievers. Sin is sin. However, there is a lot of difference between the the believer and the unbeliever. Among them is in their behavior, in their thinking, in their values, etc.

Tong
R3533

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What works of the law? What law are you referring to?

James is referring to the works of the law of Moses....

"...do not show favoritism." James 2:1

"...you must not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the rich..." Leviticus 19:15


"...care for orphans and widows in their distress..." James 1:27

"Then the Levite (because he has no portion or inheritance among you), the foreigner, the fatherless, and the widow within your gates may come and eat and be satisfied." Deuteronomy 14:29​

So you think that @kcnalp is saying that Christian works refer to the works of the law of Moses?

Tong
R3534

 

[michaelvpardo]

Please continue properly addressing the issue as you have done so far and not go back to arguing by ad hominem or saying an opinion of what you think about osas or non osas or whatever you want to put the blame on and move to put up another issue.

In the passage, we have Jesus telling the Jews who believed Him, that if they abide in His words, they are indeed His disciples. Scriptures says they believed. Yet what Jesus told them in verse 31, tells us that their kind of believing does not make them true disciples. He told them that abiding in His words is what would make them His disciples indeed. As you can see, abiding, that is, remaining and continuing in His words has to do with believing.

Many may believe in Jesus, as did those Jews back then. But if their believing is one that does not remain and continue, what do you say they are, except that they are not true disciples, right?

Tong
R3531

This argument is ongoing for 2000 years and the answer remains what the scripture says. What is the source of faith? What is the power of God to salvation? Who teaches us the word? Who empowers us to God's works? Who works in us to will and to do? Who compels us by His love?
You know these things, brother. The doubters may be walking in the way, but the prayer of faith is the prayer that is answered, and the prayer of faith is in accord with God's word, and according to His will as revealed by His voice. That is sufficient. The just shall live by faith, and the commandment of God is life.

 

[Cooper]

What does “ wittering ” mean? I was asked to explain what I thought about “ repentance”..... I did that . ....excuuuuuuuse me!

If you know what it means to repent of your sins, and assuming you know you need to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, then why do you not do it instead of going on and on (wittering)?

Make the commitment now.
.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
There are some who see what we do but not what God does relative to that.

There were Jews and there were Gentiles. The two groups of people are different with regards knowledge of God. Nonetheless, they are unsaved without Christ.

In their fallen state, unconverted that is, how do you suppose they will be saved, if not of the working of God in and on them, that they repent unto God towards faith in Christ Jesus? Yet what many seems to see is what the Gentile or Jew does when they repent and believe in Christ. So that, they take every scriptures that speaks of what one ought to will and do as pertains to salvation, to be the doing of the man, forgetful of the truth about the working of God in and on them so that they will what they will, and do what they do and are saved.

Oh, how some easily forget who they were and how they were saved by God!

WILLARD: We have been taught that grace means “you can do nothing to be saved.” Such thinking has been extended to “you can do nothing to have spiritual growth.” So spiritual transformation occurs, according to this thinking, in one of two ways – inspiration or information. Inspiration means that in one golden moment, one great experience, you will be transformed. I don’t want to criticize experience. I have had many wonderful experiences with God, but they don’t transform you. The other view, information, is the means whereby you pour truth into your head and suddenly you are transformed. Inspiration isn’t going to do it and information isn’t going to do it. The only way human character is transformed with grace is by discipline and activity.

Do you see yourself Tong according to that thinking?
You should know that spiritual growth is still part of how we are being saved from actual sin..........So we are not just saved[delivered from the Penalty of], we can be delivered from being a thief a liar, adulterer etc....for as a man thinketh so is He.....one is A theif if they would steal if they could get away with it....it's a matter of the heart and transforming it through reliance on Jesus.

Yes salvation includes us transformed and conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. And I am of the mind that it is God who will transform and will conform those being saved to the image of Jesus Christ. For it is God who saves. It is God who creates in Christ, those whom He is saving. It is God who works in them to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Tong
R3535

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So you think that @kcnalp is saying that Christian works refer to the works of the law of Moses?

Tong
R3534

I'll let him say that for himself. All I know is the works that the Bible talks about that Christians are to do are the commands of the law. Some don't require any literal action on our part anymore, but there are those that do and we uphold them through our faith expressing itself through love. Love your neighbor as yourself being the "royal law found in scripture".