new version of OSAS?

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<No, I was not free to please God before I was a new creation in Christ.>>>

Why not? Why do you say you are not free to please God before you were a new creation in Christ?

While you seem to give the impression that you do not please God before you were made a new creation in Christ bu quoting Hebrews 11:6, that is different from the matter of whether you are or you are not free to please God before you were made a new creation in Christ.

What's your point here?

I could not please God before I was saved. Now I can. I used to be a slave to sin, now I'm not.

As I said, the issue and question is not whether you can or cannot please God before you were made a new creation in Christ, but whether you are free to please God or not. And apparently you have difficulty seeing that, that you go to answer a different question altogether.

But with what you say there, it seems to me that you are saying that you are not free to please God, in that, you said you are a slave to sin. To confirm, am I right to gather from your post that you are not free to please God before?

Tong
R3538

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
what becomes of the people whom you take to be as hay, straw, or wood?

They get thrown into the furnace at the end of the age.

And why would they suffer fire if they believed the falseness taught them by the servant builder or for whatever it is that the servant builder did or did not do? And why then that servant builder, who taught them falseness, or have done or not have done something relative to that, not suffer fire?

I would appreciate it if you address the questions and not by bringing up an altogether different issue.

Tong
R3539

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
...yet those servants who build them to be so, escape to not suffer fire

As long as the servant believes and obeys the truth he won't go into the fire. Those he instructs may go into the fire, though, if they do not obey the truth taught to them, or if the servant is a well meaning but misguided servant who teaches them things that they then follow but which results in them being hay, wood, and stubble at the judgment. Type 2 Osas is a perfect example of that.

Again my argument against that remains and remains not refuted.

<<<if the servant is a well meaning but misguided servant who teaches them things that they then follow but which results in them being hay, wood, and stubble at the judgment.>>>

So, others will suffer fire because of his error while he does not and only suffer lost of reward? See what the misuse of the passage end up to?

Tong
R3540

 

[TheslightestID]

And I feel exactly the same way that you do.....so now what?

Now you answer the questions in post 2056, they are important.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes, they are different.

Also, your post there does not show us that they are the same. It’s just a repeat misuse of the passage n 1 Cor. 3:9-15.

Are you not my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 9:1​

...my brothers, whom I love and long for, my joy and crown... Philippians 4:1

...who is our hope, our joy, our crown of boasting, if it is not you yourselves in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 20You are indeed our glory and our joy. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20​

That God’s building is made up of saved people is not the issue.

Those passages are understood in their own context. The passage in 1 Cor.3:9-15 have its own context.

Tong
R3541

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Again my argument against that remains and remains not refuted.

No, you just can't hear what I'm saying. And most likely it's because you are so programmed in a particular vein of theology you can't hear any other view points. I encounter this problem a lot with reformist leaning believers.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Many may believe in Jesus, as did those Jews back then. But if their believing is one that does not remain and continue, what do you say they are, except that they are not true disciples, right?

Right. But you can't see that it doesn't have to only mean what you say it means. I'm not changing a single word of it. You're adding Osas bias to it and taking it to mean that a person believes and then never stops obeying Christ as a disciple. I simply read it and see that it says that after someone believes and they continue in the word that means they're a disciple of Christ. Obviously, if someone believes and then doesn't continue in the teachings of Christ beyond when they believed they aren't a disciple of Christ.

<<<Right.>>>

Good. And that was only my point.

<<<But you can't see that it doesn't have to only mean what you say it means. >>>

I do see. But that is not the point I am making there.

Tong
R3542

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So, others will suffer fire because of his error while he does not and only suffer lost of reward?

That is what the passage says.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<But you can't see that it doesn't have to only mean what you say it means. >>>

I do see. But that is not the point I am making there.

Oh, trust me, I know that, lol.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And why would they suffer fire if they believed the falseness taught them by the servant builder or for whatever it is that the servant builder did or did not do?

Because, ultimately, that's what they want to believe.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So you think that @kcnalp is saying that Christian works refer to the works of the law of Moses?

I'll let him say that for himself. All I know is the works that the Bible talks about that Christians are to do are the commands of the law. Some don't require any literal action on our part anymore, but there are those that do and we uphold them through our faith expressing itself through love. Love your neighbor as yourself being the "royal law found in scripture".

<<<I'll let him say that for himself. >>>

You do that.

<<<All I know is the works that the Bible talks about that Christians are to do are the commands of the law.>>>

All I know is that the Christian is not under the law but is under grace. All I know is that the Christians ought to walk according to the Spirit who dwells in him.

Tong
R3543

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And why then that servant builder, who taught them falseness, or have done or not have done something relative to that, not suffer fire?

Because he himself may not be affected by his own theology. Let's use type 2 Osas as an example. A teacher may tell lots of believers that it doesn't matter how they live and it won't affect their salvation. Some believers may hear that teaching then proceed to live in the willful sinning of unbelief, while the person who taught them that theology never does that and keeps believing to the very end. He himself will be saved while his students may not.

The prosperity gospel is another example. A teacher may teach people how they can become rich by serving God and giving to God. Riches may never become an idol to the teacher himself, but it may lead some people who hear his theology into the destruction of the love of money. Those teachers will have placed people into the building of God who will burn up as hay, wood, and stubble when Jesus comes back, but he himself will be saved.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I am sure that you don’t take that passage as saying that the salvation of Christians is by not doing such things

You can't be saved, or be kept saved, by not doing such things, but you can't be condemned by them if you don't do them.

I agree with the first part. Regarding not being condemned, the child of God is not condemned not because he does not do them, but because he is in Christ and Christ is in him.

Tong
R3544

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As I said, the issue and question is not whether you can or cannot please God before you were made a new creation in Christ, but whether you are free to please God or not. And apparently you have difficulty seeing that, that you go to answer a different question altogether.

Good grief, man! What is it about, "I could not please God before I was saved. Now I can. I used to be a slave to sin, now I'm not." that you do not understand????

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But with what you say there, it seems to me that you are saying that you are not free to please God, in that, you said you are a slave to sin.

Oh my gosh, why aren't you understanding my posts????

"I could not please God before I was saved. Now I can. I used to be a slave to sin, now I'm not."

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In that sense, yes. But it does not take away the truth that it is with the children of Israel that God made a covenant with whose mediator was Moses. And that, what is said in those scriptures does not go out to those who are not in covenant with God whose mediator was Moses.

Tong
R3537

Any gentile was free to join in the covenant with Israel. The only thing that I know of in the law that a gentile who was in covenant with God along with a native Israelite was prohibited from participating in was the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
there is a lot of difference between the the believer and the unbeliever. Among them is in their behavior

Okay, so where's the dividing line? What behavior divides the person 'living like this' who doesn't inherit the kingdom of God, and the saved person who does inherit the kingdom of God?

A true convert behaves differently in contrast to the non convert in that, he have the Spirit of God in him while the other does not. He lives by faith and the other does not. When he sins, his heart regarding that is one that is naturally aware of the wrong doing he made, while it is not with the non convert. He behaves about that sin differently than the non convert. For there is the Spirit of God in him who works in him and which is not in the non convert.

The Spirit that dwells in them is I’d say is the dividing line, together with the new heart that God had put in him.

Tong
R3545

 

[Tong2020]

Ooh, I can answer that one. Jesus is the dividing line. All things done in Him are through Him, to the glory of His name, forever and forever. Amen and Hallelujah!

Amen!

Tong
R3546

 

[Tong2020]

I was just throwing a definition out there of repentance: Here is another

Repentance involves recognizing that you have thought wrongly in the past and determining to think rightly in the future.

Repentance simply means a change of mind.

Now there are many things that one could repent of. So, in reading scriptures, the repentance spoken there would be that what the passage says it is.

Tong
R3547

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There is no issue that people are built on top of Christ, who is the foundation of God’s building, God’s building being made up of saved people, people God created in Christ.

No, that's where you're going wrong! The field and building of God is polluted with false people. They will be purged out by fire at the end of the age.

...at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:40-42​

The teachers who brought them into the field and building of God may in fact be saved. But their work, these false people, will not be. Those teachers did not build carefully. They will have no reward for work completed in the kingdom of God when Jesus returns. What (who) they built got burned up in the judgment and aren't present with them in the kingdom to be their crown of rejoicing. That's why Paul says the servant of God should be careful how he builds. If he puts up walls and floors and roofs of hay, wood, and stubble in the building of God those will get burned up in the judgment. And that servant will have no reward (those people) to rejoice in and boast over in the kingdom on the other side of the judgment.