No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

[GISMYS_7]

Yes!! After the rapture millions of people will have proof and change and become believers but then they must try to stay aliand live under anti-christ rule where most will be hunted down and killed.. Why not wise up now and be counted worthy to escape as Jesus said?
1 Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Luke 21:36
“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

 

[Timtofly]

Christians look for Antichrist because Paul said that must happen before Christ can come back for his Church--2 Thes 2.1-3. We are also exhorted by Jesus to keep watch out for false Christs and false Prophets, who claim that somehow their peculiar form of Christianity is bringing in the Kingdom immediately.

Pretribs themselves teach that Christ can come "at any moment." This is the kind of Kingdom hysteria that Jesus and Paul ruled out. The Kingdom comes only when the Father determines such. Until such time our job is to remain active Christians in the spiritual Kingdom of God.

The "Great Tribulation" is actually defined by Jesus in Luke 21 as the punishment of the Jewish People in the present age. I don't need to quote it for you. I quote it all the time, and it is simply ignored by most. They don't want to believe what Jesus explicitly said.

No matter, Jesus said that this punishment began to come upon the Jews after they rejected their Messiah. It was to come upon them in Jesus' own generation, which is what happened in 70 AD, when Jerusalem was overcome by the Romans. Jesus warned that the Jewish religious system would be trashed, and the temple demolished. All this literally happened in 70 AD.

Jesus said certain birth pains would happen as signs that this was about to take place, evidence that the Romans were about to become militarily aggressive, and eventually bring God's punishment down upon the ungodly, wicked Jews. This indeed happened in 70 AD, even though Futurists want everything in Bible Prophecy to be about the future. They want the "Abomination of Desolation" to be about the Antichrist, when it was really about the Roman destruction of the temple in 70 AD! The Church Fathers believed this, and Dan 9 explicitly says it--even the general time when it would happen, after the Messiah is "cut off."

And so, Jewish believers were warned by Jesus that they would have to go through this time of Divine Wrath against the Jewish People generally, even though believers were not the object of this wrath. They had to experience the same fate that the Jewish People had to experience, so that believers would be witnesses to how the Jews *should be.*

Jewish Christians experienced the loss of their nation, and the loss of financial security associated with their fields and animals. They went through this period of wrath, but it was *not* God's wrath against them.

This story is given in the Bible also for other nations who would go through the same experience as the Jews. There have now been Christian nations throughout the world, now in the stages of their own apostasy. And Christians have to be forewarned that they will go through troubles in their own countries, as God begins to bring judgment upon their false religion and wickedness.

In my country, the US, we are experiencing all kinds of judgments, from wild fires in the West to hurricanes in the East. We are all going through the plagues of AIDS and the Coronavirus--all 4 stages to date! This isn't being directed against Christians, but it is *not* God's will to deliver us out of this tribulation, since we are called to be witnesses in this fallen world, to hopefully save some, and to properly judge and see the rest removed.

Your arguments, therefore, miss the mark with me. Sorry.

Paul was talking about Satan, not some human. To expose Satan just tell everyone, he is real and decieving the the world. Do you think Satan is going to come out and do a news press release? The only way to expose Satan is to tell people he does exist.

Otherwise most people talk about Satan on religious forums as if he does exist, so many have already accepted that fact. I guess the "cat is out of the bag".

 

[Timtofly]

Ohhhh the old cherry-picked PARTIAL-VERSE maneuver.

We're discussing scripture here. It is always best to use scripture to make your points.

(2 Peter 3:8) "... beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

The rest of that verse you are referring to reverses the statement to make it clear that it is stating that God exists outside of time. He created time, space and matter - therefore He exists outside of time. It is not stating that every time the Bible uses the word 'Day' it really means 1000 years.

My scriptural evidence?

Genesis ONE
(Genesis 1:5) "... And the evening and the morning were the first day." One physical day, not a spiritual day, not a cryptic/symbolic day, not 1000 years.

That verse is repeated FIVE TIMES more so there is no chance that it can be debated by those who love to claim creation week actually took 6000 years. (Gen. 1:8, 13, 19, 23, 31)

When Jesus Christ says 'the Last Day' FIVE TIMES in the book of John, He means the Last Day.

How does it support a Pre-Trib Rapture for Jesus to console His beloved that He would be back for them in the last thousand years?

I was talking about Revelation 20 and the Millennium reign of Christ. The 7th Day of creation was 1000 years. God rested for 1000 years, then returned and planted the Garden of Eden. The first 6 days were literal 24 hour days. The Day of Adonai Lord God was 1000 years.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Paul was talking about Satan, not some human. To expose Satan just tell everyone, he is real and decieving the the world. Do you think Satan is going to come out and do a news press release? The only way to expose Satan is to tell people he does exist.

Otherwise most people talk about Satan on religious forums as if he does exist, so many have already accepted that fact. I guess the "cat is out of the bag".

Paul was talking about much more than Satan. I'm not sure what believing in Satan has to do with this? I don't see that as the message here. We are to be aware of counterfeits--that's what both Jesus and Paul were concerned about when exhorting the Church to stay alert.

 

[Randy Kluth]

One could put Jews in the basket of Anti-Christ as in regards to all and anyone who is Anti-Christ.

The Jews were finished 2000 years ago, who ever is claiming to be a Jew from then on to today is nothing but a Kike that's not worthy of anything at all to do with God.

The true worthy people of God were called Israelites by Jesus Christ in fact, remember Nathaniel ? and they were the followers of Jesus Christ who were the first Christians in fact.

Who is worthy to be called a Jew ? well one who truly abides in the OT books and abides in Holy Moses, how many of them are around truly ? 100 ? 1000 ? 144000 ? what has such a one truly got ? well such as they, they have the key to the coming to Jesus if they are genuine in regards to Holy Moses, that's the Key, just as it was back 2000 years ago.
Anyone claiming to be a Jew and is holding onto the Talmud or any such works has no hope at all and never did. they are not worthy at all of any claim to be a Jew regardless. such are cursed !

The whole point is the you must be truly born again and outside of that are lost to the Holy Spirit.
Once one is truly born again you are Saved because you truly know that Jesus Christ is the King of Israel ! Israel means Servants of God.
So if one does not understand that Jesus Christ is the King of Israel then such a one is looking for God, for they are lost and seeking Mans works, that's why they push all the Jew nonsense and anyone who peddles in such nonsense is lost in fact, that's why they are looking for the 2ed coming ? for they do not have 100% faith is Jesus Christ. so they have to add Works to the subject. and start ranting on and on about the so called State that they claim to be Israel, that's blasphemy ! it's clearly not Israel at all, they are truly rejecting Jesus Christ, they clearly can not seen him ! because they are not truly born again in fact, because if they did they would know such a State is folly. even the dedicated Jews know that it's not Israel but they hope it will become Israel, well that's obvious ! because they don't know who Jesus Christ truly is. for if they did they would be truly born again Christians.

The second coming all will be born again, just as anyone who truly has been Saved in the history for 2000 years has.

You sound like a hater. All non-Christians are in the same plight as Jews, and here you are, railing at men and women who don't know any better. Yes, that's what Jesus said: "Forgive them for they know now what they do."

But you just rail at them like a mad dog. Why not rail against your lost relatives and friends? Why not rail against the whole lost world? Didn't you know you're supposed to be a light to them, to hopefully bring salvation to them?

I don't care if you're a covenant theologian or a replacement theologian, or something akin to that. You have a right to have your own convictions and come to your own conclusions. But you can't just damn people because they are Jewish and claim to be "Israel." You're justifying condemning anybody in the world simply for not being saved!

Personally, I don't believe that being Jewish is strictly a religious issue, as you are making it out to be. I agree with you that their religion of works is bankrupt.

But I believe that being Jewish is also just like being German, or English, or Chinese, or Ethiopian. Why not condemn them for having an ethnicity and perhaps having a wrong religion? We're supposed to try to become like them to reach them. But you condemn the Jews, instead of trying to be like them, and be respectful to them. You sound more like you're AntiSemitic, which I hope you're not?

 

[Daniel Veler]

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below, there will be no (Pre-Trib Rapture) as dispensationalism falsely teaches, dont be deceived

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below, there will be no (Pre-Trib Rapture) as dispensationalism falsely teaches, dont be deceived

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Truth 7x7 we’re right in part but not correct in your understanding. If you want to see and understand the full meaning you must understand when Christ comes to gather his people. Some believe in the church being here for the tribulation some believe they won’t. Some believe in a 1000 year reign some don’t. Until you see the whole picture your understanding is only in part. Christ does return in the air just before his wrath is poured out on this earth. This is not the seven years of tribulation that most speak about. The tribulation occurs when the beast arrives on the scene. When the first three an a half years are completed and the last Trump sounds then Christ calls out the saved as Paul wrote about. But this is not the end. Those who refuse the beast are killed. After the seven years are completed the harvest takes place where those have gotten victory over the beast are called up. When Christ returns to reign the complete church comes with him. To include those that have gotten victory over the beast during the last 3 1/2 years. Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[GEN2REV]

I was talking about Revelation 20 and the Millennium reign of Christ.

You may have been ... but Jesus was not.

The 7th Day of creation was 1000 years. God rested for 1000 years, then returned and planted the Garden of Eden.
The first 6 days were literal 24 hour days. The Day of Adonai Lord God was 1000 years.

Where do you come up with this stuff? Clearly not from anywhere in scripture. Look how ridiculous your reasoning is:

You're claiming that Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23 & 31 use the word Day to mean a single 24-hour period, but just TWO verses later, in 2:2 it means something entirely different.

How do people convince themselves of such nonsense? My only assumption is that you were taught this by somebody who was also clueless who was taught by somebody that was clueless or intentionally leading people astray. It all traces back to the wolf somewhere back down the line. Not everyone who makes these claims is innocently mistaken.

Use scripture verses to support your outlandish claims. Anybody can slop-up a post filled with assumptions and completely unsupported claims. You don't hold yourself to a very high standard when discussing the business of Almighty God if you don't present scripture to show yourself approved. (2 Timothy 2:15)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yes, Pretrib is an invention of Man, who wanted to believe that Christians shouldn't have to suffer in times of God's wrath upon the earth. But throughout history, there have been particularly difficult periods in which God's wrath was poured out on sections of humanity, and Christians always had to endure as witnesses to God's love and grace in those times. There is a reason God doesn't call cowards, and encourages us to be brave, strong, and to stand!

Yes being spared God's wrath was told to the faithful church, Philadelphia. But isn't the wrath of God released in the Seven Bowls? Therefore, if the Seventh Trumpet is the last trumpet, then we will be spared God's wrath - but that would also void Post-trib views as well.
Other Pre-tribbers say the Church is not seen after Rev. 4:1, when the angel tells John to "come up here" - as if that is symbolic for the Church.
There is a lot of made up stuff, a half dozen or more views with each having their supportive verses to back them up.
I am a Mid- Tribber but would honestly prefer the Pre-trib view to be correct.
I see Jesus returning as He ascended and every eye seeing Him. He instructs his angels to separate the wheat from the chaff, that's the rapture. Two men in a field, one is taken and the other left behind. The Jews see Him and immediately realize their error and mourn. This could be the fulfillment of Romans 11 and prior to this, The Two Witnesses who prophesy/evangelize the Jews and the world as well logically come 1260 days prior to Christ. It may be that the last trumpet sounds simultaneously when these Two rise from the dead?
And then there is the issue about a Temple having to be built, which to me would be counterproductive and an abomination to God's plan
to save a remnant Jewish population, especially since He is sending Two Witnesses to evangelize them. This temple could not be holy, since we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. So the Antichrist standing in a holy place to me disproves a Jewish Temple. A Christian church would be a holy place with a holy congregation.

So many of us think we have it figured out and I have say, after many years of study, I don't.

 

[marks]

One of the biggest reasons this extra-biblical doctrine has been created and foisted upon mainstream Christianity is that it allows, and actually encourages, luke-warm Christians to be wishy-washy in their commitment to God and the Bible. Why?

What I wonder why it is . . . why is it that I find so very often the reason detractors of a view give for those who hold that view to just be the tossing out of insults?

It just astounds me that in a collection of people who otherwise demonstrate intelligence and the abililty to write clearly, that this is so often the cast. Astounding!

Much love!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

To believe in a PRE-TRIB rapture one must either:

1. Be ignorant of the Bible.

or

2. Pervert the Bible.

 

[marks]

You desperately fight to maintain a pre-trib rapture,

You characterize me not knowing the first thing about me. Doesn't that seem foolish? Does this reflect in your approach to the Bible?

Much love!

 

[marks]

To believe in a PRE-TRIB rapture one must either:

1. Be ignorant of the Bible.

or

2. Pervert the Bible.

Wow!

Well. I would disagree.

Now I'm off to search for reasoned and reasonable discussion.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The covenant "Was Fulfilled" to Abraham, through Jesus Christ the promised "Seed"

This covenant, for instance?

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Does this have a future fulfillment to the house of Israel?

Will national Israel be regathered by God to receive their land allotments by tribe?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The scripture clearly states they will look up when the signs of the second coming are seen, you falsely suggest they will be raptured before this

I'm saying that those who are there to see the signs will see them. This no more shows rapture timing than it shows the timing of my mother's passing away. Anyone not on planet earth for whatever the reason will not be there to see the signs, and anyone who is there, will be there to see them. And to them, they are instructed to look up when they see them.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The "Great Tribulation" is actually defined by Jesus in Luke 21 as the punishment of the Jewish People in the present age. I don't need to quote it for you. I quote it all the time, and it is simply ignored by most. They don't want to believe what Jesus explicitly said.

Luke 21:19-24 KJV
19) In your patience possess ye your souls.
20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:15-29 KJV
15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25) Behold, I have told you before.
26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

These are two different prophecies. Luke speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews, and the result being captivity among the nations. Matthew speaks of the Abomination of Desolation, and the greatest affliction of all time, and the result being the near destruction of humanity, ended when Jesus returns.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Where do you come up with this stuff? Clearly not from anywhere in scripture. Look how ridiculous your reasoning is:

Who taught you to speak this way?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I am a Mid- Tribber but would honestly prefer the Pre-trib view to be correct.

I don't really have a preference, but I am pre-trib essentially. Well, I do have a preference for pre-trib for my wife's sake. I suppose I'm being needlessly protective.

So many of us think we have it figured out and I have say, after many years of study, I don't.

I'm not going to say I've got it all figured out, but I've come to make some observations over the years. One of them is that I should take a very literal approach to what the Bible says. 3 days and 3 nights in a great sea creature is 3 days and 3 ights spent in the belly of a fish. 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth is again just that. 1000 years is 1000 years. 12,000 from the tribe of Judah are 12,000 men who descended from that man. That kind of thing.

When the 144,000 are sealed the earth is devoid of other believers. These are "the servants of God". Exclusive language. This is how I come to Scripture. These are sealed before the harm of the 70th week begins, and are the only servants of God. We might ask, where are the rest? And there they are, standing before the throne of God in heaven. And then the 70th week begins.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Two Witnesses who prophesy/evangelize the Jews and the world as well logically come 1260 days prior to Christ. It may be that the last trumpet sounds simultaneously when these Two rise from the dead?

RE the 2 witnesses, these are unable to be harmed for 3.5 years, and then the beast will kill them, having been given authority for 3.5 years. So then the 2 witnesses prophecy for 3.5 years, then the beast reigns for 3.5 years, ending when Jesus returns.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

To believe in a PRE-TRIB rapture one must either:

1. Be ignorant of the Bible.

or

2. Pervert the Bible.

I agree, those teaching a pre-trib rapture add to scripture something not seen

They take the second coming of Jesus Christ, and claim it's a pre-trib rapture, it's that simple

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, I do have a preference for pre-trib for my wife's sake. I suppose I'm being needlessly protective.

You have bought into a belief based upon "Fear" for your wife, and her being hurt during a tribulation period?

You have purchased the ticket of Dispensationalism's fear through propaganda, and it worked

The Pre-Trib rapture is sold based upon "Fear"

Yes it was the many movies in the 70's-80's-90's played every Friday & Saturdsy nights in Churches around the country, antichrist death squads chasing down Christian's, no medical delivered in emergency rooms unless the mark was received, guillotines on every street corner (Fabricated Propaganda)

Dispensationalism's top propaganda "Film Series" with links for those that desire to take a peek, there are many "Smiles"

1972 A Thief In The Night

1978 A Distant Thunder

1981 Image Of The Beast

1983 The Prodigal Planet