Will there be or is there a need for a future Messianic temple age?

[Marty fox]

Was that true of Sodom when the angels visited Lot to deliver him from destruction? Just asking.

1 Timothy 4:
2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Do you agree with the scripture above? God wants all to be saved and Jesus did die for everyone why would God want some to perish?

The people of sodom and Gomorrah were lost beyond hope but that was their choice and fault

 

[Enoch111]

Will there be or is there a need for a future Messianic temple age?

Of course. Kindly read and study the book of Ezekiel.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I agree with all scripture. The account of Sodom's destruction and righteous Lot's deliverance from the same, includes the incident where the men of Sodom came knocking on Lot's door and demanded the angelic visitors, who they didn't recognize as such, come out so that they might "know them", a euphemism for unrighteousness sexual behavior and rape. Lot went out himself and offered up his virgin daughters to the mob, but in their malice they threatened him instead with worse behavior. The angels rescued Lot, striking the mob with blindness so that they couldn't even find the door to lots house. We have nothing in scripture to tell us that the citizens of Sodom were ever instructed in righteousness, except that Lot sat in the gates, a place for elders who sat in judgment. On what basis did God judge Sodom?
Scripture tells us the "why" of God's judgment from His own mouth:
And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” Genesis 18:20-21
Now, you have to ask yourself who the outcry is coming from, but scripture is silent on the matter. I would assume the victims, but we aren't told anything regarding the judgments of those authorities in heaven created to minister to men and governing over principalities, either. The new Testament tells us that the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah was as an example of judgment given to us, yet Jesus said that the judgment of towns in Israel, Jews under the law, would be worse than that of Sodom and Gomorrah for their rejection of Him. You see nothing in these passages about God calling out to these people, nothing about their reason for rejecting Lot. Did those who were struck blind by the angels, those who do God's will, blind themselves?

 

[Marty fox]

Yes and no. When Jesus returns it's with the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just. The second resurrection is the resurrection of everyone else. You find this in the book of the Revelation, not clouded in parable or metaphor, but plainly stated:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5
There are 2 resurrections, one of the just and those that are His at His return, and the second of all humanity, all that draws breath. Those that are His at the 1st judgment will not be harmed by the second death at the second judgment.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6
The 1st resurrection is a judgment of separation between the sheep and the goats. In the old Testament the Lord actually speaks in the same manner about His people describing a judgment between His fat sheep and His lean sheep (and he makes the fat to become lean.)
Two passages in the New Testament refer to the judgment of the saints:
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 14:10
And:
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:9-10
Now, these judgments are not to condemnation but one of rewards, and we should be able to deduce this from sound doctrine and reason just by what they say and the context of to whom they are given, but those who haven't received sound doctrine can confuse this judgement with the great White Throne judgment.
While I know that good scholarship is not the way of salvation, I am grateful to those who took the time and effort to learn the original languages. The judgement seat of Christ in those two verses, comes from the greek word Bema, something Paul's gentile audience would be familiar with.
The seat of the final judgment, at the 2nd resurrection is not the Bema seat:
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11
You need to be careful not to confuse the two, my friend. That will corrupt your understanding until you grasp Roman's 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
If you see the second part of the verse as a condition, you're going to stumble over the rock of offense, and that was never God's intention for His church. It isn't God's will that any should perish. He doesn't want just a few to be saved and the rest destroyed. People who see that have bad "eyes" (the eyes of our understanding) and fill themselves with dark thoughts. That's okay, God fixes our eyes and opens our understanding and He does this by His Spirit and through His word and His works through us. It's an awesome thing to be used by God to accomplish His works.
I hope that you can look into these things in scripture and chew on them a bit, because they are good and righteous and true. The Lord leaves no one where he finds them and He loves the world enough to have died for it in the person of His son:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
Don't be deceived by people whose understanding is corrupted by poor vision and whose voices are full of "clanging brass", (judgments.) God is the judge of all creation and God's character is defined by His love. His judgment, in the final sense, is an "unusual act."

The first resurrection is spiritual when we each become saved see below as Paul talks to people still alive

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Now see what Jesus says about the first resurrection

John 11:17-27
17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother.20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

 

[michaelvpardo]

The first resurrection is spiritual when we each become saved see below as Paul talks to people still alive

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

No, the first resurrection happens when the dead in Christ rise first and those who are alive in christ are transformed into their glorified bodies and rise to meet Him in the air.
Did you miss the verse about the redemption of our bodies written by the Apostle Paul?
Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23
I'm doing some groaning myself, but not over the hope of the resurrection.

 

[Marty fox]

Yes and no. When Jesus returns it's with the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just. The second resurrection is the resurrection of everyone else. You find this in the book of the Revelation, not clouded in parable or metaphor, but plainly stated:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5
There are 2 resurrections, one of the just and those that are His at His return, and the second of all humanity, all that draws breath. Those that are His at the 1st judgment will not be harmed by the second death at the second judgment.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6
The 1st resurrection is a judgment of separation between the sheep and the goats. In the old Testament the Lord actually speaks in the same manner about His people describing a judgment between His fat sheep and His lean sheep (and he makes the fat to become lean.)
Two passages in the New Testament refer to the judgment of the saints:
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 14:10
And:
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:9-10
Now, these judgments are not to condemnation but one of rewards, and we should be able to deduce this from sound doctrine and reason just by what they say and the context of to whom they are given, but those who haven't received sound doctrine can confuse this judgement with the great White Throne judgment.
While I know that good scholarship is not the way of salvation, I am grateful to those who took the time and effort to learn the original languages. The judgement seat of Christ in those two verses, comes from the greek word Bema, something Paul's gentile audience would be familiar with.
The seat of the final judgment, at the 2nd resurrection is not the Bema seat:
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11
You need to be careful not to confuse the two, my friend. That will corrupt your understanding until you grasp Roman's 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
If you see the second part of the verse as a condition, you're going to stumble over the rock of offense, and that was never God's intention for His church. It isn't God's will that any should perish. He doesn't want just a few to be saved and the rest destroyed. People who see that have bad "eyes" (the eyes of our understanding) and fill themselves with dark thoughts. That's okay, God fixes our eyes and opens our understanding and He does this by His Spirit and through His word and His works through us. It's an awesome thing to be used by God to accomplish His works.
I hope that you can look into these things in scripture and chew on them a bit, because they are good and righteous and true. The Lord leaves no one where he finds them and He loves the world enough to have died for it in the person of His son:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
Don't be deceived by people whose understanding is corrupted by poor vision and whose voices are full of "clanging brass", (judgments.) God is the judge of all creation and God's character is defined by His love. His judgment, in the final sense, is an "unusual act."

Jesus is very clear that He will come back physically only on the judgement day

Matthew 25:31-33
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Matthew 16:27
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Revelation 22:12
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done

 

[Marty fox]

No, the first resurrection happens when the dead in Christ rise first and those who are alive in christ are transformed into their glorified bodies and rise to meet Him in the air.
Did you miss the verse about the redemption of our bodies written by the Apostle Paul?
Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23
I'm doing some groaning myself, but not over the hope of the resurrection.

You are confusing the first body resurrection with the actual first resurrection the resurrection of the spirit

 

[Marty fox]

I agree with all scripture. The account of Sodom's destruction and righteous Lot's deliverance from the same, includes the incident where the men of Sodom came knocking on Lot's door and demanded the angelic visitors, who they didn't recognize as such, come out so that they might "know them", a euphemism for unrighteousness sexual behavior and rape. Lot went out himself and offered up his virgin daughters to the mob, but in their malice they threatened him instead with worse behavior. The angels rescued Lot, striking the mob with blindness so that they couldn't even find the door to lots house. We have nothing in scripture to tell us that the citizens of Sodom were ever instructed in righteousness, except that Lot sat in the gates, a place for elders who sat in judgment. On what basis did God judge Sodom?
Scripture tells us the "why" of God's judgment from His own mouth:
And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” Genesis 18:20-21
Now, you have to ask yourself who the outcry is coming from, but scripture is silent on the matter. I would assume the victims, but we aren't told anything regarding the judgments of those authorities in heaven created to minister to men and governing over principalities, either. The new Testament tells us that the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah was as an example of judgment given to us, yet Jesus said that the judgment of towns in Israel, Jews under the law, would be worse than that of Sodom and Gomorrah for their rejection of Him. You see nothing in these passages about God calling out to these people, nothing about their reason for rejecting Lot. Did those who were struck blind by the angels, those who do God's will, blind themselves?

I believe the outcry to be justice

Of course Gods wants all to be saved why wouldn’t He the scripture below proves it and has authority

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Jesus is very clear that He will come back physically only on the judgement day

Matthew 25:31-33
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Matthew 16:27
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Revelation 22:12
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done

There are 2 judgments, not one, the Bema seat judgement and the great white throne judgment, the first includes the judgment of those hosts of spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places ( the host are all cast down except the Holy Angels who come to Earth with Christ.) All Heaven comes to Earth, all the pit comes to Earth, and all that offends is removed at that first judgment, then there is 1000 years of peace until Satan is released one last time to test God's word, even as He did in the garden. I've read the book, and many times, Satan always looses.

 

[Marty fox]

There are 2 judgments, not one, the Bema seat judgement and the great white throne judgment, the first includes the judgment of those hosts of spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places ( the host are all cast down except the Holy Angels who come to Earth with Christ.) All Heaven comes to Earth, all the pit comes to Earth, and all that offends is removed at that first judgment, then there is 1000 years of peace until Satan is released one last time to test God's word, even as He did in the garden. I've read the book, and many times, Satan always looses.

Where in the bible do you see 1000 years of peace?

Why would satan being bound for 1000 years mean peace on the earth for 1000 years? Don’t give satan too much credit he isn’t the reason for all sin

 

[michaelvpardo]

I believe the outcry to be justice

Of course Gods wants all to be saved why wouldn’t He the scripture below proves it and has authority

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

I'm sure that justice is part of the content, but who is making the outcry? Scripture doesn't tell us, unless I've missed something and it wouldn't be the first time. The Lord is always teaching me from scripture as long as I'm applying what I learn in ministry. There's not a lot of point in Him teaching us if we won't apply it to His work, the meat of the word, the work of God. The Lord doesn't run ahead of us, but He stands and patiently waits, even coming for us when we get lost along the way.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Where in the bible do you see 1000 years of peace?

Why would satan being bound for 1000 years mean peace on the earth for 1000 years? Don’t give satan too much credit he isn’t the reason for all sin

How is there strife when all that offends is removed. Offense is the cause of strife. You see it here among professing Christians because of the carnality of human perception. You must be transformed by the renewing of your mind in order to think spiritually and to have the mind of Christ. We have His mind in the person of His Spirit, the teacher, but we start out as students and babes in Christ and have to grow in Him, grow in understanding, grow in His works, grow in agape, and not for ourselves but to glorify God through Christ, hearing His voice through the Holy Spirit.
I haven't given Satan any credit for anything. Satan himself is deceived, though it may be self deception. Maybe his anointing was with the spirit of error, but it doesn't seem that way in the passages about the fallen cherub, nor by Jesus ' description of the devil, the father of lies. God wasn't surprised by Satan. Satan was part of His sovereign plan. You don't surprise omniscience. How is faith tested without an adversary?

 

[michaelvpardo]

You are confusing the first body resurrection with the actual first resurrection the resurrection of the spirit

Seriously? Where in the devil do you get this stuff?
No where in scripture does it say that our resurrection is spiritual. The new birth isn't a resurrection, it's a new birth. Jesus wasn't confused, you are.

 

[Marty fox]

How is there strife when all that offends is removed. Offense is the cause of strife. You see it here among professing Christians because of the carnality of human perception. You must be transformed by the renewing of your mind in order to think spiritually and to have the mind of Christ. We have His mind in the person of His Spirit, the teacher, but we start out as students and babes in Christ and have to grow in Him, grow in understanding, grow in His works, grow in agape, and not for ourselves but to glorify God through Christ, hearing His voice through the Holy Spirit.
I haven't given Satan any credit for anything. Satan himself is deceived, though it may be self deception. Maybe his anointing was with the spirit of error, but it doesn't seem that way in the passages about the fallen cherub, nor by Jesus ' description of the devil, the father of lies. God wasn't surprised by Satan. Satan was part of His sovereign plan. You don't surprise omniscience. How is faith tested without an adversary?

What I’m saying is that we are sinful on our own and we have to own it

Romans 3:10
10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

 

[Marty fox]

Seriously? Where in the devil do you get this stuff?
No where in scripture does it say that our resurrection is spiritual. The new birth isn't a resurrection, it's a new birth. Jesus wasn't confused, you are.

Did you see the scripture I posted Paul said that we have been raised he was talking to people who were alive

Because of sin we are spiritually dead but when we believe we come back to life spiritually that is more important than our new bodies we will never die even when our body does that’s what Jesus said

 

[michaelvpardo]

Did you see the scripture I posted Paul said that we have been raised he was talking to people who were alive

Because of sin we are spiritually dead but when we believe we come back to life spiritually that is more important than our new bodies we will never die even when our body does that’s what Jesus said

I see that you're struggling with a cogent response and I find that is usually God's grace manifested in revealing internal conflict with the 2nd enemy, the flesh. The resurrection has always been the hope of the saints, but always to be in God's presence. One of the oldest books in scripture is the book of Job. He had hope in the resurrection and says so. The entire sect of the pharisees shared that same hope, but only a few recognized Jesus as the Christ because they were confident in their works and He didn't match up to their carnal expectations. In being born again we are made alive spiritually and we could never exceed the righteousness of the pharisees except by receiving the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. His righteousness imputed to us is the righteousness of God imputed to us. You don't get any righteousness greater than that of God. His Spirit does many things for us, but one very significant thing is that He is God's seal upon us and within us, a proof of our relationship as the Spirit of adoption, and the guarantor of our future redemption, the redemption of our bodies in the resurrection. I know that the spiritual birth, the new birth is "more important" to our salvation, but a new birth is a new creation, not a resurrection. This may sound a bit weird and Cultic, but before Christ appeared the worldly shadow of heavenly things, the objects of the tabernacle and temple as displayed by the law for example, proceeded the spiritual reality in Christ. After Christ's appearing the spiritual reality leads the worldly shadows. Eg: the kingdom of God is here in believers by His Spirit, but that physical or worldly reality hasn't come in its fullness. Our new life is accomplished in the spiritual sense, but our resurrection is still before us. We have everything in heaven even if we have nothing stored up here. We are inheritors without having ever seen the inheritance.
God in the person of Jesus Christ is at the center of history, the "sun of righteousness " shines in both directions into the past and into the future, from eternity to eternity. There's just no getting around that reality.

 

[michaelvpardo]

What I’m saying is that we are sinful on our own and we have to own it

Romans 3:10
10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

In the millennial kingdom, everyone knows who Jesus is, God incarnate. The reason for weeping and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness is separation from God, not separation from that river of the waters of life which flows from the throne of God. The outer darkness is not a pleasant place to be, but Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever. Daniel 12:3
Jesus is the source of illumination during the millennial kingdom, but His saints reflect His glory and not all are given to stay in the city of God, but some minister to those in the darkness. It's a millennium, not an eternity, but the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, and the saints remain saints into eternity. Ultimately all history and everything to come is about glorifying God in Christ. It's not about us, but about Him. Humanity only exists to become His own peculiar possession and the fact that we benefit from His love is due to His character, not our own, a gift of grace to a fallen race, the human one. However that doesn't mean that His grace isn't extended to all creation for the sake of humanity. His commandment is life.
Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:14-15
While it may seem silly to preach the gospel to a chipmunk, Humans are not the only intelligent creatures in creation. The heavens are filled with creatures, the whole host is created, and even they are judged, but we think small and have difficulty perceiving the reality of the heavenly places. We are generally anthropocentric in our thinking and why wouldn't we be given that we are made in His image. The Lord tells us that the Father even keeps his eyes on the sparrow, and the prophets tell us that he's made a place for the unclean animals among the desolate places left behind by humanity in the judgment. God's got everything covered, we just don't get the big picture because of limited vision. I can't believe how many commentators just dismiss creation outright as though it were irrelevant and contradict scripture according to their finite understanding. Doesn't matter though because we'll all have the answers soon enough.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 11-13

 

[Timtofly]

That's in the current heaven there is no temple in the new paradise heaven

Revelation 21:22
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple

Yes, and there is 1000 years of the church in Paradise, while those on earth reign with Christ on earth. The Lord's Day job.

 

[Timtofly]

There’s not only a thousand years of Jesus literally reigning the nations on the earth, with a rod of iron, while Satan is bound in chains, during which there will be peace on the earth, but that rule never ends, even after the thousand years are over.

Per Zechariah 14 and Revelation 21, the city New Jerusalem comes down and lands in Jerusalem- possibly landing in the huge chasm Jesus opens in the middle of mount Olive - and God and Jesus dwell there on the earth, forever.

No, Zechariah 14 doesn’t mention the new Jerusalem coming to earth, but does show that God will dwell in Jerusalem forever, and the nations will come into the city to worship

I think the new reality will be bigger and better. Perhaps a more literal universe than just lights in the sky?

 

[Marty fox]

Yes, and there is 1000 years of the church in Paradise, while those on earth reign with Christ on earth. The Lord's Day job.

But Paul says that we reign now

Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!