John 3 - Born of Water and Spirit

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Are you saying "Jesus was water baptized as an act of righteousness--He fulfilled all righteousness for us so that we don't have to" or "Just as Jesus had to do what was right and be water baptized so also we must be water baptized"?

I do believe baptism is necessary, since it seems we are justified by faith but we maintain justification by "walking in the same footsteps of faith as Abraham"--ie, failure to walk by faith (ie, doing things we doubt are correct) constitutes "sin" by which justification is compromised (more discussion here).

Maintain justification by what the flesh?

paul would call us fools (he actually did)

 

[GracePeace]

But given the context of John 3 you can draw the connection between John's baptism for repentance and drawing people back to the law in obedience to God, and the fleshly birth of the legalist Paul is talking about in Galatians 4.

To the contrary, John's baptism said "believe in Him Who is coming".

 

[GracePeace]

Born of water is one birth. - that which is born of flesh is flesh

born of the spirit is the other birth - that which is born of spirit is spirit

by saying born again by defenition signifies their is more than one birth “Again”

Oh, I didn't know you read "born of water" as "born of flesh".

 

[Ferris Bueller]

To the contrary, John's baptism said "believe in Him Who is coming".

Absolutely correct. But there is no message of grace through faith at this time. John is calling them back to obedience to the law in preparation for the appearing of Christ. There's nothing else to repent to at this time. Besides, as I've posted from Acts, Paul makes the distinction between only receiving John's baptism and receiving the baptism given to new believers. Both talk about believing in the one to come/ the one who has come, yet they are distinct, the former being inadequate because it does not have any connection to the Spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh, I didn't know you read "born of water" as "born of flesh".

There is only one other possibility, water as meaning the spirit or the word

either works, but I tend to lean on the water = flesh, as Jesus explained,

 

[GracePeace]

Maintain justification by what the flesh?

paul would call us fools (he actually did)

Incorrect. Only the Law was "weakened through sinful flesh", but the good works we do "under Grace" are produced by God--about which we are told "therefore... obey, for it is God at work in you".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Incorrect. Only the Law was "weakened through sinful flesh", but the good works we do "under Grace" are produced by God--about which we are told "therefore... obey, for it is God at work in you".

We are justified by grace through faith not works

we are either justified or we are not, there is no inbeltween

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who is arguing for John’s baptism?

 

[GracePeace]

Absolutely correct. But there is no message of grace through faith at this time. John is calling them back to obedience to the law in preparation for the appearing of Christ. There's nothing else to repent to at this time. Besides, as I've posted from Acts, Paul makes the distinction between only receiving John's baptism and receiving the baptism given to new believers. Both talk about believing in the one to come/ the one who has come, yet they are distinct, the former being inadequate because it does not have any connection to the Spirit.

Jesus tells Nicodemus "how to enter God's Kingdom", that it is by being "born again", then corrects Nicodemus's misunderstanding "not flesh birth, going back into your mother's womb, and then exiting again, but spirit birth--to inherit God's spiritual Kingdom you must yourself be spirit".
The topic is not water baptism, and it doesn't come up.
"Water and Spirit" is "water... this He spoke of the Spirit".

 

[GracePeace]

Who is arguing for John’s baptism?

It's @Ferris Bueller's argument, no one else's.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus tells Nicodemus "how to enter God's Kingdom", that it is by being "born again", then corrects Nicodemus's misunderstanding "not flesh birth, but spirit birth--to inherit God's spiritual Kingdom you must yourself be spirit".
The topic is not water baptism, and it doesn't come up.
"Water and Spirit" is "water... this He spoke of the Spirit".

If baptism was meant, Jesus would have said so in vs 14 - 16

 

[GracePeace]

We are justified by grace through faith not works

we are either justified or we are not, there is no inbeltween

Well, that is incorrect according to Romans 14:23, but I'd prefer it we spoke on that in the appropriate thread.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's @Ferris Bueller's argument, no one else's.

Ahh, that explains it

thank you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, that is incorrect according to Romans 14:23, but I'd prefer it we spoke on that in the appropriate thread.

Not sure what rom 14 has to do with my post?

 

[GracePeace]

Ahh, that explains it

thank you

LOL! I think it's very odd.

 

[GracePeace]

Not sure what rom 14 has to do with my post?

Because "justified by faith" seemingly extends into "works of faith".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Because "justified by faith" seemingly extends into "works of faith".

Titus 3 would be consulted then

works of faith are done by saved people not to maintain salvation but because they are saved

 

[GracePeace]

Absolutely correct. But there is no message of grace through faith at this time. John is calling them back to obedience to the law in preparation for the appearing of Christ. There's nothing else to repent to at this time. Besides, as I've posted from Acts, Paul makes the distinction between only receiving John's baptism and receiving the baptism given to new believers. Both talk about believing in the one to come/ the one who has come, yet they are distinct, the former being inadequate because it does not have any connection to the Spirit.

Jesus's "born of flesh" corresponds to Nicodemus's misunderstanding "Can a man return to his mother's womb and be 'born again' when he is old?" and has nothing to do with John's baptism whatsoever.

 

[GracePeace]

Titus 3 would be consulted then

works of faith are done by saved people not to maintain salvation but because they are saved

Please let us discuss that on the appropriate thread.

 

[Enoch111]

Or do you mean no literal water birth?

Water here is a metaphor for the Gospel. So ask yourself "What kind of water would God sprinkle upon the soul of a sinner to cleanse it?"
Then will I [God] sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I [God] cleanse you. (Ezek 36:25)

Does the Word of God have a cleansing effect upon the soul? Absolutely. And here is the Scripture (Heb 4:12,13): For the Word of God is quick [alive, living], and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His [God's] sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

When the Gospel is preached the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter [the Holy Spirit] will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. And when He is come, he will reprove [convict] the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11)

Convicts them of their sins and unbelief, and convinces them that Christ is indeed God, who paid the penalty for their sins. Therefore He commands repentance and faith. And that leads to the supernatural New Birth.