Justification by Faith Alone

[GracePeace]

Ironic that "GracePeace" offers neither GRACE nor PEACE, just the death that comes from the Law ... sin and condemnation. :cool:

Does Paul also offer "death that comes from the Law" when he teaches that eternal life is repaid doers of good in Romans 2:6-16 and Galatians 6:6-10?

 

[GracePeace]

Maintain justification by what the flesh?

paul would call us fools (he actually did)

Paul said the Galatians were fools for going back to the Law ("you observe days" "you who desire to be under Law" Galatians 4:21), which is the sinful flesh, instead of "seeking to be perfected" by "the Spirit" which is defined as "doing deeds of faith", which are generated by God in our hearts--he never once said they are just to believe and then make sure not to do anything.

 

[atpollard]

"saved" being un-Biblicallly defined as "definitely going to heaven"

What about defining "saved" as "having eternal life"?

• John 3:14-18 [NASB] 14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[GracePeace]

What about defining "saved" as "having eternal life"?

• John 3:14-18 [NASB] 14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 5
11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

The life is in His Son, wherefore we are warned to "remain in Him"

1 John 2
11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

As we are also warned by the same author

John 15
6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[GracePeace]

What about defining "saved" as "having eternal life"?

• John 3:14-18 [NASB] 14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Also, you are assuming incorrectly that once we believe it is "locked in"--that is not the case, instead, we need endurance or else our hearts may be hardened by sin and become wicked hearts of unbelief whereby we fall away from the living God Hebrews 3:12-13. Jesus speaks of the different "grounds"--one ground completely rejects the word, while the others receive the word, but of those who receive the Word only one bears fruit ultimately--and you would be in error according to Hebrews 3 to assume that one's heart can never switch from one ground to another ground (they can switch from a heart that receives the Word to a heart that rejects the Word--unbelieving).

 

[atpollard]

Does Paul also offer "death that comes from the Law" when he teaches that eternal life is repaid doers of good in Romans 2:6-16 and Galatians 6:6-10?

• Romans 10:8-13 [NASB] 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Did Paul LIE?
WILL they be saved or MIGHT they be saved?

 

[atpollard]

1 John 5
11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

The life is in His Son, wherefore we are warned to "remain in Him"

1 John 2
11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

As we are also warned by the same author

John 15
6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Was that a YES or a NO to defining "Saved" as "having eternal life"?

 

[GracePeace]

• Romans 10:8-13 [NASB] 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Did Paul LIE?
WILL they be saved or MIGHT they be saved?

The Jews were "saved" from slavery in Egypt by "the blood of the Lamb" and still fell under God's wrath because of how they misbehaved--according to Paul this was written to us so that we would be warned and not do the same and so suffer the same fate of not inheriting the promise just as they did not inherit their promise 1 Corinthians 10.

 

[GracePeace]

Was that a YES or a NO to defining "Saved" as "having eternal life"?

Your definition of "saved" is incomplete truncated and therefore sub-Biblical.

 

[GracePeace]

Also, you are assuming incorrectly that once we believe it is "locked in"--that is not the case, instead, we need endurance or else our hearts may be hardened by sin and become wicked hearts of unbelief whereby we fall away from the living God Hebrews 3:12-13.

As Hebrews 10:36-39 details.

 

[atpollard]

Also, you are assuming incorrectly that once we believe it is "locked in"--that is not the case, instead, we need endurance or else our hearts may be hardened by sin and become wicked hearts of unbelief whereby we fall away from the living God Hebrews 3:12-13. Jesus speaks of the different "grounds"--one ground completely rejects the word, while the others receive the word, but of those who receive the Word only one bears fruit ultimately--and you would be in error according to Hebrews 3 to assume that one's heart can never switch from one ground to another ground (they can switch from a heart that receives the Word to a heart that rejects the Word--unbelieving).

John may have IMPLIED it, all I was attempting to do was define "saved" since your OP clearly defines what saved IS NOT without bothering to define what it IS.

Your admonition is full of NO GRACE, NO PEACE as we struggle to earn our salvation through our obedience.
I pray God grants you the GRACE and PEACE you need to find your rest in Christ ... his yoke is light.

 

[GracePeace]

John may have IMPLIED it, all I was attempting to do was define "saved" since your OP clearly defines what saved IS NOT without bothering to define what it IS.

Your admonition is full of NO GRACE, NO PEACE as we struggle to earn our salvation through our obedience.
I pray God grants you the GRACE and PEACE you need to find your rest in Christ ... his yoke is light.

It does not follow from the idea that we must trust and obey (which I've proven--you've had no defense for your position) that this obedience must be characterized by "struggling"--actually, from what I understand, it is to be characterized by hope and love as I've detailed.

However, it seems an important, vital, distinction that the tone of "walking by faith" is to be love and hope Romans 5:1-5 Galatians 5:5 not fear since fear characterizes the work of a slave Romans 8:15 which is someone "under Law" not someone "under Grace" "walking by faith" (it seems fearfulness would indicate and be a product of unbelief).

 

[atpollard]

As Hebrews 10:36-39 details.

Hebrews 10

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
​

It is not about petty and beggarly little sins that might try to trip a saint on his journey, Hebrews 10 speaks of apostasy ... rejecting the Christ and His new covenant. It speaks of OUR HOPE for better things rather than a looming fear of stumbling and being destroyed.

 

[atpollard]

Your definition of "saved" is incomplete truncated and therefore sub-Biblical.

I am still waiting for your "complete and untruncated" and therefore "Biblical" definition of saved (since you reject John 3 as a source).

 

[GracePeace]

I am still waiting for your "complete and untruncated" and therefore "Biblical" definition of saved (since you reject John 3 as a source).

I've already explained what it is comparable to--the Jews' deliverance from Egypt the House of Bondage.
Jesus destroys the body of sin and places us in Himself so that we can be delivered from sin.
"Whoever sins is a slave of sin."
Our "salvation" is as the Jews' deliverance from Egypt.
Still, after that they had to go through the wilderness "testing" to see if they would obey God's Commands in the Promised Land.
So also this life is a test to see if we will obey God's Commands in Christ, the lifegiving Spirit, where the Promise of Eternal Life is.
Read 1 Corinthians 10.
They fell under God's wrath and never inherited the Promise because they sinned--and that can happen to us as well according to 1 Corinthians 10.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, the rest of Scripture says the same--Romans 2:6-16 says that we will be repaid according to our deeds, eternal life, Galatians 6:6-10 says the same, says the same. Galatians 5 says we are to serve one another in love by which faith works so walking by faith is fulfilling the whole Law.

Then we have conditional life. Not eternal life

And we are saved by works, Not by grace. Grace has nothing to do with our salvation.

You cant have it both ways. As paul said, if it is of grace it is no longer of works. otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Grace is unmerited favor. We work to earn or merit a reward or as Paul called in in romans 4 a wage.

Romans 2:6-16 - Descriptive passage. Not prescriptive. Gods people do works..Because they are saved not to get saved

Galatians 6:6-10 - Same as above

James 2 - spoken to licentious non believers who had a dead faith who were never saved

Gal 5 - shows how obedience is obtained. by the law of love. Not how one is saved

 

[atpollard]

You SAY it is not of fear:

However, it seems an important, vital, distinction that the tone of "walking by faith" is to be love and hope Romans 5:1-5 Galatians 5:5 not fear since fear characterizes the work of a slave Romans 8:15 which is someone "under Law" not someone "under Grace" "walking by faith" (it seems fearfulness would indicate and be a product of unbelief).

But most of your message sounds as terrifying as the OT covenant with every man trying desperately to avoid a fatal misstep of doubt and call down the damnation of God like those in the desert ...

23But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Condemnation is the opposite of justification.

If this loss of justification had no bearing on salvation (justification precedes salvation in Romans 10), then it would be inconsequential, but 1) sin is never inconsequential, and 2) why even mention it? Doesn't this loss of justification correspond, instead, to Romans 8:12-13 which teach that only those who "by the Spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh" will live and not die (as Adam died for sinning)?

Jesus died for our sins.
But if we don't put forth effort and live in a way that pleases God we won't be saved.

Well, not if you consider that we are to continue in faith, including the idea of faith in actions after we are saved if we wish to ultimately be saved--1 Corinthians 10 talks about the Jews having been saved by the blood of the lamb, then baptized into Moses, and then eating communion (the manna and the water coming from the Rock, Christ), and yet with most of them God was displeased and they fell in the wilderness under God's wrath and never inherited the Promised Land (corresponding to the eternal life belonging only to those who abide in Christ)--Hebrews 10 refers to these are "God's Righteous One" who needs endurance but who does not endure and so shrinks back unto destruction. John 15 would say they're branches who issue from the Vine but who do not endure.

Is it really consistent with what Romans teaches that "true faith yields good works"--since it warns Christians they must do good deeds in order to inherit eternal life?

Our "salvation by the blood of the Lamb" corresponds to the "salvation" "by the blood of the lamb" by which the Jews were "saved" from their slavery in Egypt--yet they fell under God's wrath because though they began by faith they did not continue to walk in faith and so they angered God and failed to obtain the promise (for them it was Canaan but for us it is eternal life in the Son). This is the teaching in 1 Corinthians 10

... it sounds like a miracle that ANYONE finishes the race!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am speaking of the tone of service, not momentary unrelated fear (eg, watching a scary movie, or someone jumping out from behind a bush and startling us).

I have feared my salvation before because I struggled with a certain sin.

It was not a momentary unrelated fear my friend.. Legalism can tear you down.

 

[atpollard]

I've already explained what it is comparable to--the Jews' deliverance from Egypt the House of Bondage.
Jesus destroys the body of sin and places us in Himself so that we can be delivered from sin.
"Whoever sins is a slave of sin."
Our "salvation" is as the Jews' deliverance from Egypt.
Still, after that they had to go through the wilderness "testing" to see if they would obey God's Commands in the Promised Land.
So also this life is a test to see if we will obey God's Commands in Christ, the lifegiving Spirit, where the Promise of Eternal Life is.
Read 1 Corinthians 10.
They fell under God's wrath and never inherited the Promise because they sinned--and that can happen to us as well according to 1 Corinthians 10.

That SUCKS as a definition.

Later.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's not about being "stuck on one verse"--there is no way to serve God but by walking by faith today since we are "under Grace". "Under Grace" God's Spirit of Grace writes God's Laws in our hearts and minds and that is what "faith" is. If we do not do what we are convinced we ought to be doing then we are sinning and those who sin are not glorifying God (glorifying God is by righteous deeds Matthew 5:14-16) thus are not being "fruitful in the knowledge of the Lord" and since they are not yielding a harvest they will have what was sown into them removed and they will be thrown into outer darkness Matthew 25:26-30 Matthew 22:11-13.

He who began a good work will complete it

We have to be careful about mixing sanctification (christian growth) which is by works. and justification, which is by grace.