Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #5, Book of Acts

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Wrangler

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Thank you @Wrangler

Matthew 28:19 does not call for or teach any Trinity. When Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses cite the original verses we all agree on *the Father, Son and Holy Spirit* as stated.

Obviously, you did not read the link, which specifically states the original verse is not what you claim we all agree on.
 

Emily Nghiem

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Does a man have authority to change the commandments or perform miracles?

like Christ did?
Dear @theefaith
The ministry volunteers called to and successful with spiritual healing only invoke the Authority of Christ Jesus through prayer. None of the effective spiritual healing ministries ever assume or try to place themselves in the role of Jesus. In fact they warn against this, which otherwise causeals the failure and fraud of "faith healers" making commands.

No. The natural Christian healing process only recognizes Christ Jesus as sole Authority.

So it prevents the abuses I think you are referring to. Nobody can supplant Jesus Authority or change God's laws that are designed and operate as created.

The best book on teaching the prayer process for healing and deliverance is HEALING by Francis MacNutt edition 1999 or later. Christian Healing Ministries in FL now headed by Judith MacNutt who has counseled and healed people of homosexuality by these deep prayer methods of overcoming generational conditions.

We have only to agree to receive God's forgiveness and will, we cannot change or try to dictate what it is. Just receive it through Christ with faith that God's will is perfect.
 

Emily Nghiem

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Obviously, you did not read the link, which specifically states the original verse is not what you claim we all agree on.
I read what you linked to which talked about the Trinity and what the Trinity means.

That isn't the meaning of Baptizing all Nations in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

Are you saying this Scripture is mistranslated or changed?

If so what is the Scriptural wording you do believe in, please just spell it so I can see what you are called to follow.

The other passage is there are three witnesses, the blood the water and the spirit.

I will look for that, I think it is 1 John 5?

Otherwise if you and I can agree on the
TWO great commandments
And the NEW Commandment
And John 10:29-30

Then you and I can use that.
We do not need to use anything that doesn't mean the same thing to both of us.
We just need to stick to actual verses we do agree on and we can communicate and agree on God's message and truth.
 
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Emily Nghiem

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If you searched the title of the link I provided, you will find a detailed analysis of the fraud.
All I found was arguments about the dogma of the Trinity. I didnt see anything in that link explaining what the Scripture means, only what it doesn't mean.

If that is your point, we already agree it doesn't mean those false things.

If you still think I am missing something, please explain. But I didn't see anything in your link that negated what you and I are both saying is not the meaning of God Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
 

theefaith

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Dear @theefaith
The ministry volunteers called to and successful with spiritual healing only invoke the Authority of Christ Jesus through prayer. None of the effective spiritual healing ministries ever assume or try to place themselves in the role of Jesus. In fact they warn against this, which otherwise causeals the failure and fraud of "faith healers" making commands.

No. The natural Christian healing process only recognizes Christ Jesus as sole Authority.

So it prevents the abuses I think you are referring to. Nobody can supplant Jesus Authority or change God's laws that are designed and operate as created.

The best book on teaching the prayer process for healing and deliverance is HEALING by Francis MacNutt edition 1999 or later. Christian Healing Ministries in FL now headed by Judith MacNutt who has counseled and healed people of homosexuality by these deep prayer methods of overcoming generational conditions.

We have only to agree to receive God's forgiveness and will, we cannot change or try to dictate what it is. Just receive it through Christ with faith that God's will is perfect.

thanks
I was trying to defend the divinity of Christ wrangler and others oppose the doctrine of the divinity of Christ

I Jesus name
 

Emily Nghiem

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thanks
I was trying to defend the divinity of Christ wrangler and others oppose the doctrine of the divinity of Christ

I Jesus name
There are TWO folds of the one flock where Jesus is still Lord or Law governing both.
There are believers more like Baptists who adopt and embody Jesus as Lord to fulfill the Law of God THROUGH Jesus.

There are secular types under Natural Laws like Jefferson, Jehovah Witness Mormon and some Catholics and Muslims who see Jesus as the head of natural laws and teachings for humanity sale.

Both can receive Jesus but still relate to Him and God differently from those of us who fully embody and embrace Jesus as the living Word.

These are two branches God created.

They are not in conflict but we complement each other, like mother and father, church and state. We are called to different roles so God has us relate in different ways.
 

kcnalp

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Dualism. But nowhere to be found in the provided texts.
How many Gods do you believe in?

Isaiah 48
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me

Clearly plurality within God of the Bible!
 
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Emily Nghiem

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Dualism. But nowhere to be found in the provided texts.
Dear @Wrangler @theefaith is not contradicting what you say:
God is one and universal.
But by the time God manifests to man,
it is because we are human that we experience God, God's love truth and will,
on different levels. On OUR side of the relationship, not God's who remains ONE.

To us, we experience Jesus both on
* human levels of Natural laws
* higher spiritual levels of God's Justice as the Word of God

Jesus fulfills and joins both these levels as ONE

But since we are only human, by the time we talk about these levels, we express it as two:
Natural laws of the physical world of man
Divine laws of the spiritual realm of God

Where is this in the Bible?
Jesus as the Son of Man, by Natural laws
Jesus as the Son of God, by the Divine Word of God

Jesus said He governs a Separate fold of the ONE flock: God created laws of nature the Gentiles follow by Conscience, equally governed by the SAME Jesus, only ONE.


You are right, and @theefaith is agreeing with you there is only ONE God

But when we humans understand God through Jesus, we experience this in mind, body and spirit. We express God's manifestation on three levels, as our Father in Heaven, God's Word made manifest through Christ Jesus as the Son of God,
and the Peace that comes with God when His Truth sets us free as the Holy Spirit.

This is still ONE God.

Jesus fulfills both the
* Natural laws of the Gentiles
* Scriptural laws of the Believers

These are made ONE with God in Christ Jesus

But in our human experience and expression, the laws are distinct and complement each other.
 
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Emily Nghiem

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How many Gods do you believe in?

Isaiah 48
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me

Clearly plurality within God of the Bible!
The ONE God can manifest in infinite ways that man calls by different terms or names even though these are still coming from the ONE God greater than all.

Names of God can include
God as Love
God as Truth or Wisdom
God as Justice (where I explain Jesus embodies this level of God's Justice Law or Word, the Authority of Law as Lord of lords)
God's Will
The Kingdom of God
Heavenly Peace which I equate with the Holy Spirit and Comforter
God as Nature or the Source or forces of Life
God as Creation or Universe with no beginning and no end but infinite and self existent

Still only ONE GOD meets all these descriptions.

Man is merely finite.
We can only perceive and talk about one aspect of God at a time. So by the time we piece together all the ways God has manifested to us, our terms and ways of seeing and expressing God are plural and diverse.

But God is still one. Not more than one god.
If people idolize one aspect or angle of God, Jesus as God's Justice still governs over that local or lesser lord, as Jesus is still the ONE Lord or Law over all other laws or lords.
 

Wrangler

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How many Gods do you believe in?

There is only one God. Jesus's God is the only God.

Regarding your Scriptural reference, it's a matter of understanding language usage. Let's refer to a good modern translation in understanding how I can watch a video of Muhammad Ali saying, "I am the Greatest" and this is not to be taken I, Wrangler, am saying I am the greatest.

Listen to Me, O Jacob, Israel whom I’ve specially named,
specially chosen, and not without purpose.
I Am the first of all things, and I will be the last.
13 It is by My power, My desire, My doing that the earth was anchored.
My hand flung the skies. I established them,
And when I call, they pay the strictest attention.

14 Come and listen, all of you! Did any of you tell in advance
that the Eternal’s beloved would press diligently
Against Babylon’s might and overcome Chaldea as He desired?

15 Eternal One: No, only I, I the Eternal One knew this would happen.
I was the one who summoned him, who led him,
Who determined that he would have such victory.
16 Come even closer, and hear: from the beginning I spoke,
not hiding away in hushed secret. I Am and will be;
I was before anything was at all.

The Lord, the Eternal, has sent me and His Spirit.

There is a difference between Isaiah quoting the Eternal (purple and indented) with the words of Isaiah (blue, not indented) referring to himself.

A hint to do proper Biblical analysis is to keep in mind that Isaiah, like all the Biblical authors, was a monotheist Jew, who believed in one God. From this perspective, consider the proper interpretation of the text.
 
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theefaith

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There is only one God. Jesus's God is the only God.

Regarding your Scriptural reference, it's a matter of understanding language usage. Let's refer to a good modern translation in understanding how I can watch a video of Muhammad Ali saying, "I am the Greatest" and this is not to be taken I, Wrangler, am saying I am the greatest.

Listen to Me, O Jacob, Israel whom I’ve specially named,
specially chosen, and not without purpose.
I Am the first of all things, and I will be the last.
13 It is by My power, My desire, My doing that the earth was anchored.
My hand flung the skies. I established them,
And when I call, they pay the strictest attention.

14 Come and listen, all of you! Did any of you tell in advance
that the Eternal’s beloved would press diligently
Against Babylon’s might and overcome Chaldea as He desired?

15 Eternal One: No, only I, I the Eternal One knew this would happen.
I was the one who summoned him, who led him,
Who determined that he would have such victory.
16 Come even closer, and hear: from the beginning I spoke,
not hiding away in hushed secret. I Am and will be;
I was before anything was at all.

The Lord, the Eternal, has sent me and His Spirit.

There is a difference between Isaiah quoting the Eternal (purple and indented) with the words of Isaiah (blue, not indented) referring to himself.

one God in three divine persons
Acts 2:42
Doctrine of the apostles
 

Wrangler

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I read what you linked to which talked about the Trinity and what the Trinity means.

That isn't the meaning of Baptizing all Nations in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

I'm disappointed people here cannot read a reference unless they are spoon fed, directly to the relevant statements. In the link it specifically contains a historical analysis of Matthew 28:19. Excerpts are:

What Happened to Matthew 28:19?
Trinitarians often say Matthew 28:19 supports their belief stating that by the shared authority of these three we are commissioned to baptize. However, this verse in no way affirms the trinity doctrine which states that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three co-equal, co-eternal beings that make one God.

In any case, I find myself greatly perplexed by this verse, because where do we see the Apostles or anyone else for that matter following the explicit instructions of Christ here? Here are all verses where anyone was baptized into the name of anyone. Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13; Galatians 3:27. But as you can see, there is not one person following what Christ supposedly instructed them to do. In every verse we find people baptized into the name of our Lord Jesus Christ only. So why the apparent disobedience of the apostles?

The following dictionary explains, “The historical riddle is not solved by Matthew 28:19, since, according to a wide scholarly consensus, it is not an authentic saying of Jesus, not even an elaboration of a Jesus-saying on baptism.” — (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 1, 1992, p. 585). Further research revealed this to be the case as all Bible commentaries and dictionaries quoting on this issue claimed that it was added by the Church of Rome to support their Trinitarian formula. The quotes below state the origin of this baptismal formula. See Mathew 28:19 added text for many others.

The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.” — (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition, Volume II, page 263 and Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, Vol. 3, Pages 365-6)

Justin Martyr was one of the early Fathers of the Roman Catholic Church who helped change the ancient baptism of “in the Name of Jesus Christ” to the titles of Father, Son and Holy Ghost.” — (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume 8)

So how did this happen and what did the original text say if this is true? It must be remembered that we have no known manuscripts that were written in the first, second or third centuries. There is a gap of over three hundred years between when Matthew wrote his epistle and our earliest manuscript copies. (It also took over three hundred years for the Catholic Church to evolve into what the “early church fathers” wanted it to become.) This is what my research revealed.

Eusebius (c. 260—c. 340) was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” He wrote prolifically and his most celebrated work is his Ecclesiastical History, a history of the Church from the Apostolic period until his own time. Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings including Matthew 28:19 several times. But he never quotes it as it appears in modern Bibles. He always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.

The following example comes from an unaltered book of Matthew that could have been the original or the first copy of the original. Thus Eusebius informs us of the actual words Jesus spoke to his disciples in Matthew 28:19 which were, “With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” — (Proof of the Gospel by Eusebius, Book III, Ch. 6, 132 (a), p. 152)

Eusebius was present at the council of Nicea and was involved in the debates over the Godhead. If the manuscripts he had in front of him read “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” he would never have quoted instead, “in my name.” So it appears that the earliest manuscripts read “in my name,” and the phrase was enlarged to reflect the orthodox position as Trinitarian influence spread.


In conclusion, Matthew 28:19 does not prove or disprove the trinity doctrine and you will have to decide for yourself if this text belongs as it cannot be proven conclusively one way or the other. But Scripture certainly strongly indicates that baptism should be in the name of Christ as all examples reveal.

I started a thread about how come the Apostles disobeyed the resurrected Messiah? This is strong evidence that Matthew 28:19 was modified from what the Father of Church History, Eusebius recorded.
 

theefaith

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Mk 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Jesus forgives sins, he must be God

Jesus changes the commandments He must be God matt 5:22

Only God can work miracles Jesus must be God cos he works miracles
Even the wind and sea obey him
 

Wrangler

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We don't have to argue or agree on Persons/Trinity etc.

Sure, we do not have to argue it. The trinity is not in the Bible. Nowhere does it say anything like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-eternal, co-substantial and co-equal - and if you don't believe this you cannot be saved. All the Epistles identify God as the Father. And you have to wonder why this idol is used as an obstacle for people to follow Jesus?

“Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
John 20:17

For us, there is one God, the Father
1 Corinthians 8:6

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
2 Corinthians 1:2

I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.
Galatians 1:1

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Ephesians 1:2

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philippians 1:2

May God our Father give you grace and peace.
Colossians 1:2

I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.
Galatians 1:1

We are writing to the church in Thessalonica, to you who belong to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 & 2 Thessalonians 1:1

May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord give you grace, mercy, and peace.
1 & 2 Timothy 1:2

May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior give you grace and peace.
Titus 1:4

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philemon 1:3

For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus: “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.”
God also said, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son.
Hebrews 1:5

Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring
James 1:27

God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy.
1 Peter 1:2

when he received honor and glory from God the Father.
2 Peter 1:17

We proclaim ... our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:3 (NOTE: Again no reference to the HS)

Grace, mercy, and peace, which come from God the Father
2 John 1:3

He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father.
Revelation 1:6
 
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theefaith

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The church always baptized in the matt 28:19 formula

in the name of Jesus is a command to be baptized, the command is in the name of Jesus the baptism is in the matt 28:19 formula
In the name of jesus is short for the matt 28:19 formula
If you are going to honor the name of Jesus then obey matt 28:19
 

Wrangler

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From today's devotional reading, Acts 13:
v 30 “But God raised him from the dead!"
v 35 This is explained elsewhere:‘You will not let your Holy One see decay.'

Understanding language usage informs you Jesus is not God. In v30, God in his unitarian nature, raised Jesus from the dead. In v35, the "You" is God and "your Holy One" is not God but the suffering servant of God. This is akin to the sentence I will not let my car run out of gas. My car is not "I." Your and my are words that indicate possession, not the possessor.
 
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