The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Eternally Grateful]

There is no correlation between those 2 verses. You are making stuff up from your own mind.

there is a corrolation

He just ignores the fact that only those who looked were saved. Those who did not look by defenition. would have been lost.

He who believes is not condemned

He who does not believe is condemned already.

Those who did not believe when the snake bit them did not look up. they were condemned before they were bitten.

Those who believed looked. They were not condemned the moment they looked. through their faith.

For God so loved the WORLD. Whoever believes will be given eternal life.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Such a flippantly disrespectful response to the Christ saying "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

And you call yourself a Christian.

Whatever my friend.

My response was to you and what you were saying

It is the work of God. If God did not do the work in my life. I never would believe.

Many are called few are chosen.. Jesus died for all. And the spirit testifies and convicts all.. But not everyone will believe. God forces no one

 

[Wrangler]

Many are called few are chosen.. Jesus died for all.

Again, IF Jesus died for all, then universalism would be correct doctrine.

Given there is a condition to be saved that the majority of human beings do not meet, it is absurd to say he died for all.

 

[Kermos]

There is no correlation between those 2 verses. You are making stuff up from your own mind.

Lord Jesus the Word of God incorporated the Word of God in Numbers 21:8-9 into His words recorded in John 3:14-16, but you subtract that incorporation.

You claim to be a Christian, but a Christian does not subtract any of the Word of God.

 

[Kermos]

Whatever my friend.

My response was to you and what you were saying

It is the work of God. If God did not do the work in my life. I never would believe.

You "lol" reply was to the Word of God which I quoted of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

That "work of God" declared by Lord Jesus is a complete package with nothing to change for God's gift is "that you believe in Him whom He has sent".

That "believe" in John 3:16 is entirely controlled by God alone.

You cannot choose to direct "your belief" toward Jesus per Jesus as recorded in John 6:29.

Many are called few are chosen.. Jesus died for all. And the spirit testifies and convicts all.. But not everyone will believe. God forces no one

You added to the Word of God when you wrote "Many are called few are chosen.. Jesus died for all" because Jesus did NOT say your writing.

The Word of God did say "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).

Notice that "are called" indicates an action upon "many", so Jesus does not indicate free will for any of the "many".

Notice that "are chosen" indicates an action upon "few", so Jesus does not indicate free will for any of the "few".

Again, no one, absolutely no one, can believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent unless God works "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

 

[Kermos]

there is a corrolation

He just ignores the fact that only those who looked were saved. Those who did not look by defenition. would have been lost.

He who believes is not condemned

He who does not believe is condemned already.

Those who did not believe when the snake bit them did not look up. they were condemned before they were bitten.

Those who believed looked. They were not condemned the moment they looked. through their faith.

For God so loved the WORLD. Whoever believes will be given eternal life.

You are illegitimately dissecting the Word of God incorrectly in two ways.

FIRST

You associate wrong phrases in Numbers 22:8-9 with wrong phrases in John 3:14-16.

You try to drag "Those who did not look" (your words) into the conversation; however, they are not mentioned in Numbers 2:8-9 nor John 3:14-16.

You wrongly assert "He just ignores the fact that only those who looked" lived because in this post I make the very point that only those who looked at the serpent lived.

That is you bearing false witness.

SECOND

You think that you can manipulate the "believe" referred to in John 3:16; however, the Word of God says different then you think for the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

That is you subtracting from the Word of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, IF Jesus died for all, then universalism would be correct doctrine.

Given there is a condition to be saved that the majority of human beings do not meet, it is absurd to say he died for all.

This is ONLY true if Jesus forced salvation on people against their will.

If this was true. We would not be told to repent.

We would not be told to believe

We would not be told to call out on the name of the lord.

We would just be saved.

Just because someone buys everyone a gift. does not mean everyone will receive it.

 

[brightfame52]

Those who Christ did not die for !

People who Christ did not die for and in the place of are going to die in their sins, those sins that broke God's law. All sinners whom Christ did not die for are still responsible to God and held accountable for every sin against Him and His Holiness, because He is their Creator. For the strength of sin is the Law 1Cor 15:56.

However all for whom Christ died for, by His Body, have died once and for all to the Law Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

This verse assures all those who Christ died for shall be married to Christ, that is they shall receive a spiritual life that is indicative of having died to the law with Christ. This is not because of their Faith or repentance that they are dead to the Law, but by the Body of Christ. see Gal 2:19

Yes, in the literal body of Christ, though in a mystical way, their surety, they [all for whom Christ died] have suffered the extreme penalty of God's Most Holy Law, and that Law can no more punish them for their sins again, no more than the state can execute the law on a criminal that is already dead.

So all for whom Christ died are dead to the law, secure as a dead man against the Legal vengeance that awaits all those who Christ did not die for, for through His death, we have been delivered from the wrath to come. Rom 5:9 & 1 Thess 1:10404

This has absolutely nothing to do with one's believing it or receiving it[The knowledge of it] by Faith, though that will
occur, but solely resting upon the Death or Blood of Christ.

We may sum it like this" The Church, because of her own legal death upon the cross within her Head, she has escaped the dominion of her first husband, the Law, so now in a new resurrected life [regeneration] she may be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God..

But those who Christ did not for, they have much to fear in that day, for they are under dominion of the Law.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You "lol" reply was to the Word of God which I quoted of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

That "work of God" declared by Lord Jesus is a complete package with nothing to change for God's gift is "that you believe in Him whom He has sent".

That "believe" in John 3:16 is entirely controlled by God alone.

You cannot choose to direct "your belief" toward Jesus per Jesus as recorded in John 6:29.

My lol was your comment that I point to MY BELIEF. it had nothing to do with the verse you stated. I admitted it is the work of God I believed. a point you totally ignored.
If I am drowning and a person comes to rescue me, and I have faith in him and allow him to save me. I don't PUFF MYSELF up that I SAVED MYSELF by My Faith. All the credit goes to the rescuer.

Your so afraid of taking any credit for anything, you are afraid of this fact. and thats sad. Because you can not boast in any way in this.

You added to the Word of God when you wrote "Many are called few are chosen.. Jesus died for all" because Jesus did NOT say your writing.

The Word of God did say "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).

Notice that "are called" indicates an action upon "many", so Jesus does not indicate free will for any of the "many".

Notice that "are chosen" indicates an action upon "few", so Jesus does not indicate free will for any of the "few".

Again, no one, absolutely no one, can believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent unless God works "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

If there is no free will. we are all robots.

Good luck with that God you can have him. Because in that instance. Satan is the one who is right. Not God

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are illegitimately dissecting the Word of God incorrectly in two ways.

FIRST

You associate wrong phrases in Numbers 22:8-9 with wrong phrases in John 3:14-16.

You try to drag "Those who did not look" (your words) into the conversation; however, they are not mentioned in Numbers 2:8-9 nor John 3:14-16.

You wrongly assert "He just ignores the fact that only those who looked" lived because in this post I make the very point that only those who looked at the serpent lived.

That is you bearing false witness.

SECOND

You think that you can manipulate the "believe" referred to in John 3:16; however, the Word of God says different then you think for the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

That is you subtracting from the Word of God.

They do not HAVE to be mentioned

If ONLY those who look were saved. UNLESS it says everyone period was saved. Then it means that those who did not look died.

Your the only person in my 40 years of discussing the word of God who has ever even contemplated that everyone there was saved. because they all looked..

 

[charity]

Again, IF Jesus died for all, then universalism would be correct doctrine.

Given there is a condition to be saved that the majority of human beings do not meet, it is absurd to say he died for all.

Hello @Wrangler

There is more to Universalism that one doctrine, so to say that 'if the Lord Jesus Christ died for ALL then universalism would be correct' is silly. The only condition for salvation is that we should believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is the Christ, the Son of God.

* Revealing the purpose behind the writing of the gospel he penned, John says in John 20:30-31:-

'And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through His Name.'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

You are illegitimately dissecting the Word of God incorrectly in two ways.

FIRST
You associate wrong phrases in Numbers 22:8-9 with wrong phrases in John 3:14-16.

You try to drag "Those who did not look" (your words) into the conversation; however, they are not mentioned in Numbers 2:8-9 nor John 3:14-16.

You wrongly assert "He just ignores the fact that only those who looked" lived because in this post I make the very point that only those who looked at the serpent lived.

That is you bearing false witness.

SECOND

You think that you can manipulate the "believe" referred to in John 3:16; however, the Word of God says different then you think for the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

That is you subtracting from the Word of God.

'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have eternal life.'
(Joh 3:14-15)

Hello @Kermos,

The reference in Numbers is Numbers 21:7-9.

'Therefore the people came to Moses, and said,
.. 'We have sinned,
.... for we have spoken against the LORD,
...... and against thee;
........ pray unto the LORD,
.......... that He take away the serpents from us.'
And Moses prayed for the people.
And the LORD said unto Moses,
.. 'Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole:
.... and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, '
...... when he looketh upon it, shall live.'
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole,
and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man,
when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.'
(Num 21:7-9)

* It is interesting to see the follow up to that story, in 2 Kings 18:3-5a:-

'And he (Hezekiah) did that which was right in the sight of the LORD,
according to all that David his father did.
He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves,
and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made:
for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it:
and he called it Nehushtan. (ie., copper serpent of the desert)
He trusted in the LORD God of Israel;
so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah,
nor any that were before him.'

* 'Looking' in Numbers 21, was the evidence that those bitten believed God, so in that sense the comparison between John 3 and Numbers 21 drawn by our Lord is intended to convey the same truth. 'That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Wrangler]

This is ONLY true if Jesus forced salvation on people against their will.

Right. All people includes those people.

Logic works. You really ought to try it sometime.

 

[charity]

'For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through Him might be saved.

He that believeth on Him is not condemned:
but He that believeth not is condemned already,
because He hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation,
that light is come into the world,
and men loved darkness rather than light,
because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light,
neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,
that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.'
(John 3:16-21)

 

[Wrangler]

There is more to Universalism that one doctrine, so to say that 'if the Lord Jesus Christ died for ALL then universalism would be correct' is silly. The only condition for salvation is that we should believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is the Christ, the Son of God.

What is silly about unraveling the contradiction? What is true?
A. ALL will be saved — Universalism
B. SOME will saved - Only those who put their faith in Jesus.

 

[Kermos]

This is ONLY true if Jesus forced salvation on people against their will.

If this was true. We would not be told to repent.

We would not be told to believe

We would not be told to call out on the name of the lord.

We would just be saved.

Just because someone buys everyone a gift. does not mean everyone will receive it.

We beneficiaries' of the glorious Benefactor repent by God's working, for the Christ of us Christians says "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Matthew 11:25).

AND the apostles and elders glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18).

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in Matthew 11:25 state that God causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward).

Lord Jesus says "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted" (Matthew 13:11), so God grants repentance with man doing nothing.

Despite your pride of teaching that you personally drive repentance, you cannot repent apart from God granting repentance.

We beneficiaries' of the glorious Benefactor believe in Lord Jesus by God's working, for the Christ of us Christians says

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

AND Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Ephesians "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God as a complete package!

Despite you trying to steal the glory of God regarding the control of belief/faith in Jesus, you cannot believe without the work of God.

 

[Kermos]

My lol was your comment that I point to MY BELIEF. it had nothing to do with the verse you stated. I admitted it is the work of God I believed. a point you totally ignored.

You wrote "It is the work of God. If God did not do the work in my life. I never would believe".

You immediately took "the work of God" which is a compete finished package of "that you believe in him whom he has sent" (John 6:29), and you immediately took that and said you needed to do more work with the package that Jesus says is complete.

If I am drowning and a person comes to rescue me, and I have faith in him and allow him to save me. I don't PUFF MYSELF up that I SAVED MYSELF by My Faith. All the credit goes to the rescuer.

You are not a drowning man.

You are a dead man in need of the resurrection power of Jesus Christ Who raises people from the dead (Luke 7:11-17).

Paul wrote to followers of the Way "you were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1).

Your so afraid of taking any credit for anything, you are afraid of this fact. and thats sad. Because you can not boast in any way in this.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding" (Proverbs 9:10).

I do not take credit because my God gets all the glory!

You boast in your prideful supposed choice of Jesus.

Paul wrote "that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:9), yt you appear just fine with your boasting.

You try to STEAL the glory of God with your self-proclaimed control, so you are sinning based on "You shall not steal" (Exodus 20:15).

If there is no free will. we are all robots.

There is no scripture that says man was imparted free will; therefore, man does not have a free will.

Let's just see what scripture has to say about the condition of God's creation, not your words, but scripture.

The Apostle Paul wrote "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:19-23).

Good luck with that God you can have him. Because in that instance. Satan is the one who is right. Not God

Luck is part of a false religion, and you appeared have no problem using it.

You add your thoughts into the Word of God to form a god in your own image, so you call the Word of God a liar because you are saying that the Word of God is not enough without your prideful additions.

 

[post]

how does a thread like this go 70 pages when we have such clear scripture as Hebrews 2:9 ??
oh yeah. people are stupid, almost forgot. people will argue that salvation is by works for tens of thousands of pages even tho the scripture says absolutely the opposite in no uncertain terms. they'll get banned 10 times from another forum for that idiot argument and come here to this forum instead lol

*sigh*


Christ Jesus tasted death for every man
the one that believes in Him, has eternal life.
the one that does not believe is condemned already.

salvation isn't determined by whether Christ died or not -- good grief look at 2 Corinthians 5:14 for example??
salvation is by grace through faith -- it pivots on belief

 

[Kermos]

They do not HAVE to be mentioned

If ONLY those who look were saved. UNLESS it says everyone period was saved. Then it means that those who did not look died.

Your the only person in my 40 years of discussing the word of God who has ever even contemplated that everyone there was saved. because they all looked..

The ones who did not look are not mentioned in Numbers 21:8-9 nor John 3:14-16., so you adding them into the Word of God as recorded in John 3:16.

UNLESS the passage explicitly mentions the people that did not look at the serpent resulting in their death, then including those people is adding them into Numbers 21:8-9 and John 3:14-16.

A few versus prior in Numbers, it is written "The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died" (Numbers 21:6), and there is no further mention of Israelites dying after being bitten by the serpents in Numbers 21; furthermore the serpent on the standard in the wilderness was not mentioned until two verses later.

This means that the bronze serpent portion (Numbers 21:8) of the passage occurs away from the portion about the Israelites that died (Numbers 21:6).

Because Jesus mentions the bronze serpent in John 3:14 that means that Jesus' reference starts at Numbers 21:8.

The Word of God recorded in Numbers 21:8-9 is of hope in living not terror in dying.

The Word of God recorded in Numbers 21:8-9 is of deliverance, not of destruction as you so desperately want it to be.

The Word of God recorded in Numbers 21:8-9 describes only Israelites who look and live, and John 3:14-16 describes only Christians who believe and live.

You are adding to the Word of God a population of Israelites that is not mentioned into the Word of God in Numbers 21:8-9 thus you are adding to the Word of God a population of people that are not mentioned into the Word of God in John 3:14-16.

This culminates in the fact that the word "world" in John 3:16 includes only persons in the hope of eternal Life (John 14:6) and persons yet to be in the hope of eternal Life (John 14:6).

 

[Kermos]

My lol was your comment that I point to MY BELIEF. it had nothing to do with the verse you stated. I admitted it is the work of God I believed. a point you totally ignored.

Your "lol" was most certainly about "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

This Word of God is central to the post about which you wrote"lol".

A Christian does not write "lol" about the Word of God.