When You See the Abomination of Desolation Stand in the Holy Place

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marks

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have I said 'the seed of Israel'?

Jeremiah 31:33-37 KJV
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The greater light to rule the day, the lesser light to rule the night, and so long as they do, Israel's children will remain a nation before God. He will not cast them off.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Once again, gotta run, I may or may not be back online before Tuesday.

God bless you brother!

Much love!
 

Timtofly

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Um, you aren't attributing this to me, are you?

Much love!
The word angel means messenger. According to Genesis 1:14, the stars are the heavenly messengers:

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


The sons of God are the earthly messengers.


That was my point, that humans fit better in Genesis 6 than stars.
 

Timtofly

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I don't see that there in that passage.

Following this part about the 144M, the angels fly, giving the Gospel, warning against worshiping the beast, and taking his mark. I don't see this at the beginning of the millennium.

Much love!
Revelation 14 is the winepress. The final act of God on earth before the Millennium. The same act as the battle of Armageddon.
 

quietthinker

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Ah yes...Does Israel mean all the physical descendants of Abraham? The Pharisees boasted of being children of Abraham and the generation who died in the desert in Moses time were also physical children of Abraham. Does this mean they were children of Abraham in the sense that the NT means, ie, Paul? I don't think so. 'Israel' means 'he who prevails'

We are dealing with spiritual matters here not physical genetics and scripture requires this is understood if we don't want to be barking up the wrong tree.
 
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Jay Ross

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I think the main issue has been, over the course of many years here and elsewhere, that you apply a timing formula that I don't. So that where I read 2300 days, and read it as our basic 24 hour day, you take it to mean 2300 years. Is that not correct? If I'm mistaken, I apologize. Am I mistaken? It puts us on pretty different hermanuetic tracks.

Mark is not most of the Book of Daniel. where a time period of a day is mentioned, understood to have the understanding of a year's time period being referenced. Even Christ used the same formula understanding of a year represented prophetically as a day in Matthew 24:32, Mark 13:28 and Luke 21:28-30 with respect to the day when Israel's redemption would occur, i.e. 91 plus years from the year that the fig tree budded when the nation of Israel was established in 1948.

In Luke 21 24 we are told the following: -
Luke 21:24: - 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
NKJV
Now Jesus was making a reference to a future series of events when both Jerusalem and God's earthly Hosts would be trampled for a further 1,970 or so years until the fulfilment of the Daniel 8:9-14 prophecy was complete.

Daniel 8:9-14: - 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.​

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; {i.e. years in keeping with other Daniel prophecies}, then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."​
NKJV
In line with history, the Temple was trampled a number of times over the years, once during the time of the Maccabee Rebellion around 150 BC and also around 70 AD, as well as other two times, that I am aware of, when the Israelites attempted to rebuild the Temple when the gathered Israelites were not allowed to finish the task of rebuilding the Temple .

God's earthly hosts, i.e. the Israelites, have been trampled by the nations living among and around them since about 260 BC onwards, because of their continual idolatrous worship, and this trampling is still occurring even today.

To limit the span of the Daniel 8 prophecy to a time period of just 2,300 days is doing an injustice to the historical facts.

Even Daniel 9:26b suggests to us that the trampling of the Israelites such that they remain desolated and devastated until such time that the war in heaven ends in our near future around the time of the Armageddon event.

Marks, if I am wrong then please provide the biblical and historical evidence to prove what you describe is a flawed understanding of the scriptures.

I await the time of your evidence.

Shalom
 

Randy Kluth

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Is it your claim that there is no future AoD? I do not know any one who denies the Romans had intent. 70AD was not even when many fled Jerusalem. They fled from the advancing Roman armies a few years before 70AD.

The event they would have knowledge of had already happened with Antiochus Epiphanies. The temple was made desolate for years. It was not destroyed. It was put back to use, although Herod completely rebuilt that one. The one that was destroyed in 70AD was Herod's rebuilt temple.

Even Pilate when first made governor, put up ensigns that desecrated the Temple area and Jerusalem. No one fled. They complained, and those AoD were removed. It seems that Jesus was speaking about a particular AoD, and advancing armies. The one about advancing armies was headed, and they did flee. Yet a few years later thousands if not millions of Jews from all over the empire still gathered for Passover that year, and were slaughtered by the Romans.

I agree with at least some of what you're saying. This was not about Antiochus 4. This was about 2 Roman approaches to Jerusalem, Cestius Gallus in 66 AD and Titus in 70 AD. The 1st approach allowed time for Jewish believers to escape to Pella. When Titus came, the only escape was by coming down from housetops and heading for the nearest hills, without looking back, without taking anything heavy.

Yes, 70 AD did not complete the job. 135 AD did. But the Great Tribulation Jesus described was not, as most futurists think, a reference to the Reign of Antichrist. No, it's far bigger than that.

No, the Great Tribulation was Jesus still operating under the OT Law, and focusing on Israel, informing them that because they remain hardened in their sins they will lose their religion of Judaism, the temple, and their most important city of Jerusalem. They will be taken from their land, with only a few remaining to till the fields for the Romans.

And this Jewish Diaspora will last for the *rest of the age.* Obviously, this will include the reign of Antichrist, who will likely try to do harm to the modern Jewish State. He will want to prevent its spiritual recovery.

It will be the worst punishment from God ever sent upon the Jewish People. That is why Jesus called it the "Great Tribulation." And so, it only started in 70 AD, with the annihilation of the Jewish temple, the symbol of Jewish religion.
 

Randy Kluth

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I've done word by word comparisons through these prophecies myself, and come away with the different POV.

Somewhere I've got it all written out, but it's quite long.

One of the questions I like to focus in on in this regard is, what is the significance of "but before all these" in Luke 21?

Much love!

I would love to compare my notes with your notes! My views have changed through the years, so whatever position you may hold, I probably held to it, as well, at one time.

"But before all these?" I'd have to check, but I believe it was a reference back to the main subject, which was the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD). It was not a reference to anything said immediately prior, but rather, to the beginning statement, that the temple would be completely annihilated, stone by stone.

It reads, paraphrased, "but before the destruction of the temple and the aftermath" there will be the labor pains, presaging the complete destruction of Jewish religion. Jewish religion would actually be used to persecute Jesus' disciples. The result would be age-long judgment against those who continue to practice the Jewish religion.
 

Randy Kluth

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This one is a deeper discussion if you want to have it. Certain questions about these letters, I think, can't really be answered any other way than to understand a multi-layers intention from God for them.

I personally see them addressed to the assemblies then, applicable to assemblies now, and that will reach a fulfillment in assemblies during the 70th week. I realize that is not stated.

Matthew 10 is a very interesting chapter in that regard.

Nothing is said other than that these are Jesus' instructions to His disciples whom He sent out at that time. But when you read the chapter, it doesn't all fit them. I see how it can be divided into the ministry at that time, the time of the Apostles, for the 144,000, and for the great tribulation. It's all in the language. Not stated, but extremely interesting!

In this letter, these words, the time of testing upon the whole world, to test them that dwell upon the earth. That's a phrase to follow through Scripture!

:)

Much love!

Yes, I used to be heavy into esoteric meanings in Scriptures, and I suppose I never will completely get away from them. There is something to God knowing the future when writing to people in the past. There are layers of truth, designed to fit all those later who would read it into their own historical contexts.

But to properly interpret a Scripture passage, certain inviolable principles are involved. Context is key--not repeat phrases that obtain some mystical quality from one biblical book to another. If the same phrase is used by the same people they are indeed likely to see the link. But phrases can also be used in different contexts, and this should not be ignored.

So proper interpretation comes first, and then application to different situations. And yes, I'm sure that there is a pattern in the 7 churches that applies to other church generations. Every generation probably has each of the 7 churches in their own time. And it may even be that each church represents different eras of development in each nation, and perhaps even in the world.
 
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Marty fox

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In Matthew 24 Jesus is having a private conversation with His disciples whom have just asked him what the signs of the end would be. He tells them among the signs they will see the AOD spoken of in Daniel.

none of the signs listed apply to modern times.

Exactly like praying that it won’t happen on the sabbath
 
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CadyandZoe

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Revelation 11:1-2 KJV
1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The two pieces of information on this then are that the outer court of the temple is given to the gentiles, and also that they will tread the holy city underfoot for 42 months.

The temple will be, I think in the holy city, same as before.

My questions would be, when is the temple to be built, and when are the 42 months that the holy city will be trod underfoot?

Daniel 7:25-26 KJV
25) And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26) But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Revelation 13:4-7 KJV
4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

I'm seeing a 42 month (1260 days, or 3.5 years of 12 x 30 day months) period where power is given to the beast for 42 months ending when Jesus comes.

Towards the temple building, I can only guess, however, it has to be built before the man of sin sits there, the AOD, marking the beginning of 3.5 years of great tribulation. So then prior to that.

There's not a lot to go on here, I realize that.

Much love!
Mark,
When I get more time, I want to rethink the time elements in prophecy. I want to explore the idea that we weren't meant to calculate the duration as we typically do. At this point, I'm not saying that I disagree with you. But I must admit that I, myself, didn't come to the conclusion that "time, times, and half a time" is 1260 days or 3.5 years. Obviously, it can be interpreted that way and I have no reason to doubt it, except for one small pebble in my shoe (so to speak) that keeps bugging me. Why does the Bible have so many different ways to indicate 1260 days? I suspect that the description itself is intended to convey meaning.

Let me give you one example of what I mean. Consider Revelation 11:2-3

Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

I note that within two verses the same time period seems to be indicated two different ways: 1) number of months, and 2) number of days. And I ask myself why. This invites the reader to dig deeper into the meaning and ask questions. One question that immediately comes to mind is whether the time period in verse 2 is a different time period than the one in verse 3. Assuming that the two descriptions have the same time period in mind, we are invited to compare months with days. What ideas are associated with months; what ideas are associated with days?

One more thing, counting months is less precise than counting days, and counting years is less precise than either of these two. Perhaps the difference in precision conveys meaning also. In other words, converting "time, times, and half a time" to "1260" days might be missing the point. The units of measure, might be significant with regard to the culture in which the counting is done. Which culture keeps track of the moon? Which culture keeps track of the days? Which culture is interested in the years?
 

VictoryinJesus

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My understanding on this point is that even though you are born again, if someone fills your head with nonsense, and convinces you it's true, your faith gets overthrown, it stops benefiting you in your life. Just the same, Jesus still knows that you are His, only, you won't be walking in faith, so your life gets stalled.

Much love!

We see it differently. Concerning the rapture… a question I have is if God gathers unto Himself His Spirit and His breath…as proposed by the rapture theology that God’s Spirit and His breath of Life is removed and gathered (raptured unto God), how will people be walking around like proposed in movies like “left behind”? Job 34:14-15
If he (God) set his heart upon man, if he(God) gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; [15] All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

in the movies those raptured and snatched out, their bodies turn to dust. Then how, by what spirit and breath do those “left behind” keep from “all flesh shall perish together” also turning to dust?
 

Dave Watchman

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I think the main issue has been, over the course of many years here and elsewhere, that you apply a timing formula that I don't. So that where I read 2300 days, and read it as our basic 24 hour day, you take it to mean 2300 years. Is that not correct? If I'm mistaken, I apologize. Am I mistaken? It puts us on pretty different hermanuetic tracks.

It looks like you have a good thread going, I won't try to spoil it. I agree with much of what the people are saying here, but not with everything. Everyone can be right about something. Who's to say I'm the one that's in the right place with the right timing formula. But I think that I am. And I agree with you on: "but before all this, but not on the temple deal or the 2300 days. If the "weeks of years", spoken of by the Prophet Daniel, are 490, then the 2300 appear to be part of that same program.

If I were a betting man, I would wager a great deal that we are much closer to the actual Main Event, which creation is groaning for, than anyone realizes. "Price action makes market commentary, or: "trade the chart, not the story. This is what I do, instead of tring to force my doctrinal beliefs into the obvious prophetic time periods.. Transfer this operation to the Biblical format and it would mean that the: "prophetic time periods force the true doctrine. So if the 1290 days, the time, times and half a time and 7 and 62 weeks can be located, it would mean that the man of sin has already taken his seat, the Abomination is standing right now in an all new holy place and the two witnesses might be already laying dead in the streets of the symbolic city for 3.5 days. Which might be 3.5 years that occur inside of the 1335 days.

I haven't been at this as long as you, only since about 2013, when I was trying to figure out the four blood moons, but now it looks like 1969 was a great time to be alive. Isaac Newton would have loved to see one of those days. How wild to consider that God was using Norman Greenbaum, a Jew, to hold up a sign, like He was using the Knesset Jews to hold up the same sign. A lot was happening back then. The Apollo 10 crew achieved the highest speed relative to Earth ever attained by humans, Creedence Clearwater Revival released their recording of: "Bad Moon Rising, Norman Greenbaum released his recording of: "Spirit in the Sky, and in January 1969, the Knesset Jews also set up: "The Company for the Reconstruction of the Old City of Jerusalem.

aUfrRz0.jpg


"From the going forth of the command to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;​

3YyENaN.jpg


And Isaac Newton's commentary on Daniel 9 was finally released to the public eye.

Why is news of Newton’s prophetic studies only coming out now?

Newton’s theological and alchemical papers were kept from public scrutiny by the Portsmouth family until 1936, when they were sold at Sotheby’s in London. The largest single collection of the theological papers was acquired by the Jewish scholar Abraham Shalom Ezekiel Yahuda. When he died in 1951, he left them to the newly-founded State of Israel. His will was contested and thus the manuscripts did not arrive in Israel until 1969, when they were brought to the Jewish National and University Library in Jerusalem. It was only after this point that scholars had access to this particular collection of papers.
Statement on the Date 2060

Those poor Knesset Jews were given the timing formula, but they still couldn't make anymore sense of it than the Old Time stiff necked Jews could when Jesus said those same times were fulfilled in Mark. Now the "time is fulfilled", again. When you apply a timing formula, like the ones mentioned from Newton's Daniel 9 commentary, it matches with the modern day Abomination, which counts exactly 1290 days until a "darkened sun, then coincides with a 1335 day count culminating in the middle of a heptad (+ 40 days). Like during the original last heptad when the two men in white raiment said this same Jesus will return in like manner as you have seen Him go. In a cloud. In the middle of the heptad. + 40 days. He will return in like manner.

When Jesus sat that evening on the mount called Olivet there were no poor widows putting coins in the treasury. It was the end of the day that He had spent inside the Temple complex. Every morning the people would come to see Him in the Temple, but at night He would lodge on the mount called Olivet. They had left the Temple and were walking away, down the Temple mount, across the Kidron Valley, and up to the mount called Olivet. A 25 minute hike even today. A Sabbath Day's journey. Most of the disciples were probably fallen asleep. Only Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?”



Much love!

The Greatest Love!

Gotta have a friend in Jesus.

Peaceful Sabbath.
 
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Curtis

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so Job should have come out from the grave when Christ rose from it at the resurrection…then why futuristic still that the hope is Job will see in the far off future still yet to come…God stand upon the earth in the likeness of man? Can we have it both ways…job is still waiting to see God stand in his own flesh? Ignoring “my eyes has seen thee”. Why then didn’t Job rise with the others that came out of the graves and were seen of others?

Except Matthew says many saints arose, not that they all arose. So Job didn’t necessarily have to be included in the many.
 

Curtis

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Which creation are you referring to?
Genesis is all about the creation of the physical universe and physical world, which is why the creation of angels, who are immaterial spirits living in the spirit world, is not mentioned in it.

Angels and the spirit world God dwells in, already existed prior to creation of matter.