new version of OSAS?

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What context would change the thought in what you said? In any context, the thought that you authorized God so that He can do what he could not otherwise do, remains.

You are hung up on the world authority.

If you DO NOT give God by the Authority OF your Word, your Consent, your Agreement,
FOR GOD TO SAVE YOU....

What is YOUR POINT....God CAN or WILL save you anyway? That IS FORCE.


You reject Force while you also reject a mans authority via Freewill to Choose God or not.
That is a circular argument....MOOT.

Yes, God does not need me giving him any authority nor permission nor consent to do as He wills on me, more so if He wanted to give me His mercy and save me. Who am I to do that? Will God not do what He wills on me or could He not do so because I don’t allow Him to or consent just to what He will do with me? And if God does to me what He wills, who am I to question God?

God does what He does and answers to no one. He needs no permission nor consent from His creatures, including man, in order to do what He wills to do.

As I have been saying, God saves a man without forcing him nor by making the choice for him. I hope you will come to the knowledge of that, so you would really get what I meant when I say that God saves man by grace according to His will, pleasure, purpose, and divine nature.

Tong
R3832

 

[Taken]

Well,….

Did God offered Abraham salvation or did God give him promise of salvation?

Both. Salvation is Saving ones soul.
Abraham was Offered Salvation of his soul.
Abrahams was Offered the Promise of soul Salvation.
His soul Salvation could not be "accomplished" at that time, before his physical death.
Abrahams soul Salvation was thus a Promise to BE accomplished, at his physical death.
The soul departs from a Physical Dying body.
A physical body, returns to the earth.
Abrahams dead body was buried in a Cave.
Abrahams Saved SOUL, destination, was "IN A PLACE OF COMFORT".
That Place of Comfort, for Abrahams saved soul, was IN Hell. IN a portion part of Hell, called "Paradise".
Abrahams Saved Soul remained "there", (along with all other saved souls, departed out of physically dead and buried body's)...
UNTIL...
Abraham's Body and soul was raised up from the grave (cave where his body was buried) and hell (Where his saved soul was)....AND
Together Abrahams Body with its saved soul in his body....Walked the Earth WITH Jesus'; 40 days.
After Jesus' body (from the cave buriel) and soul (that went to hell) was Risen Up. He walked the Earth for 40 days.
After the 40 days...
Jesus' Body on earth, and soul in His body rose UP to Heaven...
Abrahams BODY returned to its Earthen grave, and his saved soul was escorted to Heaven.
THE "PLACE" called "PARADISE"...is always WHERE..."the Tree of Life located at a particular time".
When the "TREE of Life" was in the Garden,
The Garden was "Paradise"..
The Tree of Life, in the "Comfort side of Hell",
That Was Paradise.
The Tree of Life, in Heaven, that is Paradise.
The Tree of Life, ON a renew Earth, (Gods Kingdom ON Earth)...that shall be called Paradise.
"Saved" souls, departed out of Dead Bodys, are always Kept in Paradise. The saved souls LIFE, IS sustained, espressly...BY the Tree of Life.

Did God offered Noah salvation

Yes.

God give him grace

Yes.

God...saved him and his family?

Yes.

Is Gods Grace and Gods Salvation the same thing? No.

Did God offer His begotten Son to be the Savior and Messiah,

Yes.

Did...God give Him to be the Savior, the Messiah?

Yes.

Did you learn, men failed, and God purposed in HIMSELF, to accomplish His Will for mankind know and understand the mysteries of His Will?
The Son of God IS the Lord.
The Father in Heaven IS God.
The Christ is the Power the Almighty.

Did you learn the fullness of God,
IS, Himself;
The Lord God Almighty?
Yes, HE Himself, offers, and saves those willing and able to Agree to be Saved.

Eph 1;
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hathpurposed in himself:

If you say that salvation is some offer of God to you, perhaps you can show me scriptures that says it is.

Scripture OVER 1,000 times mentions OFFERING.
OT, mentions OFFERING over 950 times.
OT, is all about MEN offering TO GOD....over and over and over men making Offers TO GOD, for forgiveness, over and over and over.

NT mentions OFFERING 16 times.
A few, scriptures, speak of the OT offering of men...
And a few, Scriptures, speak of A new offering, OF GOD, (not men).
A new offering that supersedes OT offerings.
THE NT reveals the OFFERING is REVERSED...
It is no longer MEN offering to God...
It is GOD Offering to men.
Gods Offering....that is AGREED TO be "ACCEPTED" by any man (according to Gods terms/WAY)...IS FULFILLED....ONCE, (not over and over and over in the same one man).

Eph 5:
[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through theoffering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

IF you do not Agree to Receive His Offering...[/B]

Your whole arguement is hanging on you do not have to Consent or Agree to receive His Offering...

Explain How or Why you would receive His Offering without your Consent.

 

[Taken]

Well, perhaps I did not get this statement of yours right then, “Before my life time, God Offered TO THE WHOLE WORLD, Freewill, To Choose God, or NOT.”

But that’s good, we agree that free will was not offered by God to Adam.

Tong
R3831

Okay.

Correct Freewill was NOT an Offering...(that a man can choose to take it or leave it)

Freewill was Gods "MAKING" in His created man.

I don't think we have disagreement on the Big Picture, but more so on details

 

[Tong2020]

I know that sounded real scary what Tong said . Salvation was offered . HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST .
IN order to obtain salvation , ONE MUST BELEIVE . GOD brought salvation . And not for works which we did ,
but by grace are you saved . IT IS a gift . STAND ON THAT TO THE LAST BREATH .
But hammer not at the ones who remind us , AS DID JESUS and the Apostels , and JESUS From heaven , THAT YOU MUST CONTINUE IN HIM
to the END . Yea i say attack not that reminder . Nor the reminder ye must be doers and not hearers only deceiving your own selves .
BUT OH YES , YE are saved SOLEY BY THE GRACE OF GOD WHO DRAWS US TO JESUS , FAITH IN JESUS . LET THE KING BE PRAISED .

Did that scare you? Did not mean to.

<<<Salvation was offered . HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST .>>>

Yes His name is Jesus Christ. Now whether Jesus Christ was offered to man by God or not, is our issue. You agree with @Taken and @Marvelloustime seems to agree as well, that salvation is offered. On the other hand I don’t share that view with you. My view is that salvation was not offered, but was accomplished by God in Christ Jesus.

I guess you have many scriptures that you think supports your view. I would request for you to give me the most clear among them that effectively says that salvation is indeed an offer by God to man. With that, I could consider it.

Tong
R3833

 

[Tong2020]

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Firstly, can you tell me what it means to call upon the name of the Lord?

Can all man call upon the name of the Lord? Who do you say can call upon the name of the Lord?

Tong
R3834

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The question “What would have happened if the Lord had not opened her heart?” isn’t speculation. For the passage clearly says why Lydia heed the things spoken by Paul, that is, because God opened her heart. Now, what God had opened is that which is closed, right?

On the Sabbath, Lydia was already worshipping God.
(Does that indicate to you Lydia was close hearted "to God?")
What the Scripture indicates to me is...
Paul did as he agreed with Jesus he would do.....Spread the good news of the Messiah of God having arrived and His Offering of Salvation and Quickening through The Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
And her Heart was Opened to receive Jesus' message and Accepted the Lords offering of Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Well, many Jews worship God too as Lydia. But their heart was closed.

I said “Now, what God had opened is that which is closed, right?”, and you don’t seem to agree. So perhaps you think that God opened an already open heart? Well,…..

Tong
R3835

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And that which is closed, could not receive anything in, right? That isn’t at all speculation. And so, of Lydia’s heart was not opened by God, she would not heed the things spoken by Paul.
Two points there that you seem to have missed. That even a worshiper of God, without Christ, such as Lydia does not have a heart that is open to receive the truth. That unless God opens the heart of the fallen man, even those said to be worshipers of God such as Lydia and many Jews, if not all, he will not heed and receive the truth of the gospel that the apostles preached.
That being the situation, what happens to man’s free will?

If you recall...men Faithful to God, before Jesus arrived, became saved "AT THEIR PHYSICAL DEATH.
If you recall...the Apostles traveling informing the Jews of the arrival of their Christ Messiah occured, Offering them Salvation NOW, before their Physical Death.
If you recall...Paul in agreed Service to Jesus', was sent to Preach God and Jesus to the Gentiles, with the Same Offering, of Salvation NOW, before their Physical Death.
If you recall Some Jews Accepted and became Saved.
If you recall Jesus Himself revealed He Fulfilled the Law, but did not destroy the Law, which Kept in tact, a Jews Freewill to continue following the Law, Remain Faithful to God, to their Lifes end, and by their faithful endurance, they would be Saved.
The Lord Opening Lydias Heart, to Hearing Preaching of Jesus, she becoming Baptized with the Holy Spirit, lead to others in her home town of following suit.

You seem to imply Lydia's heart was closed, period. When in fact what Lydia's heart was closed to, was having not yet knowledge of Jesus the Christ Messiah.

You seem to assume that Lydia was only a worshiper of God and was not a worshiper of other gods. Of course one could assume that, but that remains just to be an assumption. Now, not that Lydia was said to be a worshiper of God means that she is saved or that she is better off than others in coming to the knowledge of the truth concerning Jesus Christ.

<<<You seem to imply Lydia's heart was closed, period. When in fact what Lydia's heart was closed to, was having not yet knowledge of Jesus the Christ Messiah.>>>

Yes Lydia’s heart was closed to the things about the gospel concerning Jesus Christ, as do many, if not almost all of the Jews. They are not far from the truth for they have a knowledge of the true God. But be that as it may, the was need to open their hearts to heed the things spoken by the apostles to them. Unless God opens the heart, they would not and could not. What more of the gentiles who do not even have knowledge of God as do the Jews and Lydia? The more they need God to open their heart, right?

<<<If you recall Jesus Himself revealed He Fulfilled the Law, but did not destroy the Law, which Kept in tact, a Jews Freewill to continue following the Law, Remain Faithful to God, to their Lifes end, and by their faithful endurance, they would be Saved.>>>

Do you believe that? That they would be saved, even without believing in Jesus being the Christ?

Do you really believe that the Jews, after Jesus Christ has completed His work on earth, could be saved apart from Christ?

Do you believe that the Jews at the time of Jesus and until today, can possibly be faithful to God, even remain faithful, when they do not believe in Jesus Christ?

Tong
R3836

 

[Taken]

It seems to me that for you man is that which is only the thing you say “was Created, with flesh, bones, tissue, organs, blood, mind, ears, eyes, nose, mouth,....”, and seems to be not including the spirit.

Tong
R3830

In brief;
Man IS formed dust of the earth.
Man with Gods Breath, IS formed dust of the earth WITH Life (from God) in the formed thing called man.

Man was created with a BRAIN, the Brain, (if you have ever seen one (which I have), or perhaps seen a picture of a Brain, it looks like grey sausage stuffed in a casing and folded back and forth on top of itself self to a heaped pile with a curve at the top of the pile. (Not that impressive LOOKING).
However the BRAIN, is connected to multiple other parts of the body, (blood, nerves, etc.),
That allows a man to Process into thoughts, what the eyes see, the ears hear, the nose smells, the skin touches/feels, the tongue tastes....which it is the MIND "processing".

The life OF the Body (is Blood.)
The life IN the Body is Gods Breath. (Soul)

The BODY, (it's life), MUST DIE.
God requires it. (Gen 9;5)

The Life in Gods Breath shall NEVER Die.
God can not Die.
Souls can continue living with Gods breath.
(Which is what a SAVED souls does...continues living with Gods breath).
Gods breath can Leave a soul, (return to God), and a Soul be destroyed.

So you know, every man has a BRAIN, and the MIND is the Brains receiving and processing of information.

The HEART can also receive information.
The information the heart receives (while the Mind is aware of the Hearts information)...
Is not always the same information as the Mind.

Meaning...the Hearts "information", "thoughts" IS the mans Absolute "NATURAL TRUTH." <---- THAT IS;
the natural spirit of man

The mind, (carnal mind), is the mans "NATURAL thoughts"...THAT CAN:
Be true, false, guessing, opinions, deceiving, embellished, half-truths, outright lies, etc.
And why, sometimes it IS in Agreement with the natural spirits absolute truth, and sometimes not.

For example...TONG...may be your True given name...(your spirit in your heart knows if that IS a true statement).
Or perhaps, TONG...is a name your MIND devised for the purpose of having a "NAME" for this forum, by which others could call you.
(While, YOU are concealing your true given name). That "option" is given you as a condition to participate on this forum. Meaning the condition for participation is you must have "A" name....but your option is, you do NOT have to reveal/use your TRUE name.
Your MIND knows the difference...Knows what is TRUE in your spirit in your heart...and Knows what it (the Minds thought) is revealing may NOT be True.

When a man Agrees to Accept Gods gift of FAITH...the man does so by HEARING Gods WORD.
Some men are receiving that GIFT of FAITH....to their natural MINDS, (hearing but not hearing, hearing but not believing)
Some men are receiving that Gift of FAITH....to their natural spirit, (hearing and believing absolute truth of Gods word).

Faith either Increases in a mans spirit.
Or Faith to a mans mind is dissected, found unfathomable, unbelievable, rejected.
Nothing has YET occurred concering Receiving Salvation.
However something IS occurring....
One is receiving Faith to his natural spirit...
One is in danger of ... FALLING FROM FAITH.
WITH TRUE FAITH in the man....
The man is also in danger of...NOT in a position (according to Gods terms/way),
TO: receive His Gift of Salvation.
Because "WITHOUT" TRUE (in a mans spirit) FAITH....that man IS NOT PREPARED;
TO:
Confess TRUE Belief or Receive Gods Gift OF Salvation.

So...turning to a man WHO Does have in his "natural spirit"...true Faith.
And that man "FROM his natural spirits TRUE FAITH"...."DOES" Confess His TRUE BELIEF....
"THEN WHAT" ?

WHAT EXACTLY has that man DONE?
That man has NOTIFIED GOD...(according to Gods Terms/WAY)...that that man IS AGREEING to Accept Gods OFFERING of SALVATION of his soul.....AND QUICKENEING of his spirit.
THAT man is AGREEING, FOR GOD to "MAKE" that man's "soul saved" and "spirit quickened". (Ie spirit born again)

The ORDER is a process.
God offers forever life to a man.
When the man FOLLOWS the ORDER and Way God provides for MAN to receive Gods OFFERING ... and "IF" the man FOLLOWS the ORDER and WAY....and "IF" the man CONSENTS.... GOD DOES ALL "HIS" works, required to GIVE everything to the man, GOD offered, and Promises (a consenting men) will receive from God.

God forgives, the man for NOT having believed. (Which we are naturally born, NOT believing in God).

God restores a mans soul. If you recall, with Adam, God called his formed body and made living soul....VERY GOOD. (Gen 1:31)
Well, then it wasn't "very good".
Restoration of our soul, (Pss 23:3) is GOD SAVING IT, by once again MAKING our soul, very good...acceptable to Him...and saved UNTO Him.
THAT man is called; SAVED
And by default KEPT from separation From Him, Kept from Him taking His Life out of the soul, Kept from Him destroying the soul.


The "natural spirit of man"... natural truth in a mans Heart, born naturally from a mans seed... becomes REBORN....FROM a DIFFERENT SEED. The Different SEED, is Gods SEED. (BTW, Gods SEED has a title, called CHRIST).
When Gods SEED is given by God (Gods works), it enters a mans .... (new heart)...
Also given by God (Gods works).
That SEED, "rebirths" a mans natural spirit, into a SPIRITUAL SPIRIT, (because God IS a Spirit, thus Gods SEED is a Spiritual Seed).
THAT SEED, "births' a new truth in that man.
A SPIRITUAL TRUTH, GODS TRUTH, (Gods TRUTH is named JESUS).
The Spirit of God, Enter the mans new heart, is Gods Truth, Abodes WITH-IN that man.
And continually FEEDS that mans new spirit, GODS TRUTH.
That man is thus called: BORN AGAIN.

God Offers, Man can by his own FREEWILL hear, learn what God Offers. Or not.
Man can by his own FREEWILL follow Gods Order and Way to Accept and Agree to Gods Offering....or not.

"THE IF"....condition terms, that IS REQUIRED of a man...which IS the man CONSENTING for God TO Save the mans soul and quicken the mans spirit

Rom 10:
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For (BECAUSE) with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Zech 12;
[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth thespirit of man within him.


Ezek 18:
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezek.36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

ORDER
First offered First man and woman called: Adam (Gen 5:2)
* Tree of Life, in the Garden for Adam to FREELY eat. (Gen 1;29)
Then offered the Jews (ie House of Israel)...
Then offered all the Tribes.
Then offered all the Gentiles.

Body, soul, spirit of a man...3 different things.
Body, soul, spirit of every Natural man, is corrupt in Gods eyes.
Each thing, has an order and way to be MADE
changed, restored, renewed...Acceptable unto God, once and forever.

 

[Corlove13]

Salvation....

Jesus became the source of salvation
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author (source)of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Defining life eternal-

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. JOHN 17:3

 

[Taken]

Well, many Jews worship God too as Lydia. But their heart was closed.

I said “Now, what God had opened is that which is closed, right?”, and you don’t seem to agree. So perhaps you think that God opened an already open heart? Well,…..

Tong
R3835

I disagree with your assumptions and implications.

Men worshipping God do not have a heart that is CLOSED unto God.

Men who have NOT heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, HAVE a heart that is Closed unto JESUS.

It stands to reason, you can not be OPEN, to consider or believe what you have NOT HEARD.

Not a big secret, Many people were OPENLY believing and worshipping God.
Not every person had Heard of Jesus' arrival, or His Gospel.
(We are well informed, Jesus arrived IN JUDEA, and people living in JUDEA were the FIRST to Hear of Jesus and His Word.
... And over a course of 3 years, men were Hearing, Learning About A NEW to their Ears Teaching....THOSE "trained" men set out TO: travel and teach "Other Jews" Already Worshipping God, To NEW information ABOUT Jesus' Word....
....And there after Those men were to Teach men of "other Tribes...
....And there after Saul, Already steeped in Gods Word, and OPENLY believing and Worshipping GOD was taught for 3 years IN the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
...And thereafter Saul the Jew, called Paul the Greek was sent out to Preach the Gospel of Jesus TO primarily the Gentile, (about God and Jesus ) and also the Jew...(who already was Open to Gods word).
....and So...reasonably, a person not having heard, would not be believing or worshipping what they did not know.

Lydia was CLEARLY open to Gods word, by it being revealed SHE worshiped God.
Lydia was CLEARLY "unknowing" of Jesus' Gospel, as was revealed, her Hearing of Jesus' Gospel, came to her the day, she met Paul and he preached Jesus' gospel TO HER.

What was revealed is THE Lord opened the HEART of a woman (named Lydia) ...(who already worshiped God, who was Hearing the Gospel of Jesus)....that she would receive what she was hearing from Paul, AS Gods TRUTH, via God, via Jesus, via Paul, to Her ears.

Well good for her.... With an OPEN HEART, Lydia (a worshipper and believer IN GOD), was blessed with Hearing and Receiving ADDITIONAL "knowledge" from Her God, and as she openly Believed IN God so also she openly Believe IN Gods WAY for her to receive Additional knowledge....that she immediately acted on that ADDITIONAL knowledge and Became MADE baptized with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It is NOT about her having a "closed heart"
It is a foreshadowing .... of how quickly Jews as the end of days (as we know them) approaches....God shall SEND HIS "servant teachers", with the Gospel of Jesus Christ...and Preach to Jews...already Worshipping God....and THEY will quickly receive the Gospel, believe, and become Baptized with the Holy Spirit... SAVED...and QUICKENED....Before they are swiftly killed bodily, in the end of days disasters upon the earth.

 

[Taken]

You seem to assume that Lydia was only a worshiper of God and was not a worshiper of other gods.

.

No. I know Lydia was a worshipper of God, because Scripture says so, and I trust the Scriptures are True.
No. I do not assume or consider Lydia worshipped any other gods, because nothing Scripturally says so.

that Lydia was said to be a worshiper of God means that she is saved or that she is better off than others...

Uh...
Worshipping God did not mean "SAV-ED".
Worshipping God Certainly meant, the person believed in God.... and Certainly meant, THAT person was already "better off" than a person who NEITHER believed or worshipped GOD AND JESUS...

Yes Lydia’s heart was closed to the things about the gospel concerning Jesus Christ,

Good, glad you clarified your statement with specific language.

as do many, if not almost all of the Jews. They are not far from the truth for they have a knowledge of the true God. But be that as it may,

Agree...And BTW those who ARE OPEN HEARTED to GOD AND Jesus....DO NOT "ALL" CALL themselves Christians.
(So when someone claims, this and that only applies to Christians, pertaining to Salvation NOW, THAT is an error.)

the was need to open their hearts to heed the things spoken by the apostles to them.

Sure.

Unless God opens the heart, they would not and could not.

Do you consider....again the all knowing God....and to whom He Opens the heart of a man to believe in Him, believe in Jesus Christ....being the SAME, he already KNOWS, WILL believe?

What more of the gentiles who do not even have knowledge of God as do the Jews and Lydia? The more they need God to open their heart, right?

Keep in rememberance...God IS ALL KNOWING. He gives us Knowledge...we can freely accept or reject. He already KNOWS what we will do.
God opening the heart of a man....IS HIS WORKS IN A MAN....to trust to believe the knowledge the man is receiving....
And also....many men receive, hear the word of God...and will NEVER believe it, by the same token ... God can harden their hearts.
(THAT, is already known....God KNOWS us, our choices, before we are even "manifested" (born in the flesh), before we even know we HAVE choices, or what Choices we have).

Do you believe that? That they would be saved, even without believing in Jesus being the Christ?

Yes and No.
Yes...IF they Faithfully continue Under the Law, their Salvation would be given them at bodily death, according to the same Fashion that applies to their Forefathers, Hebrews and Jews who were under the Law.
(Remembering, they believed in God, they believed in the Word of God....they simply did not KNOW the Word of God was Jesus, who had not yet been revealed to them.)

No in the respect, When they learn about Jesus, (as is not a primary learning Jews are teaching Jews, and Gentiles are not teaching Jews)....and tribulations arrives...JEWS who know the Gospel of Jesus WILL be sent TO TEACH the Jews...
(Two witnesses in Jerusalem & 144,000 in the mountains), then will their hearts be opened to accepting Jesus and they be Saved).

Do you really believe that the Jews, after Jesus Christ has completed His work on earth, could be saved apart from Christ?

Do you believe that the Jews at the time of Jesus and until today, can possibly be faithful to God, even remain faithful, when they do not believe in Jesus Christ?

Considering...WHY so many Jews can not believe in Jesus Christ their messiah...
Several reasons...appeared as an ordinary man, had no kingship status, wealth, army, kingdom, they continued to be persecuted,
But also why IS...

Hebrews, tribesmen, Israel, Jews....were always First...First to hear, First to connect with God, and when so many Jews, especially the Jewish Rabbis and Teachers and Pharisees were so arrogant, rejecting, backstabbing, plotting.....just like with their land they did not care for (according to God)....God had said eons ago, if one will not care for what He offers to give, He will give it to another.....
Giving what you believe is rightfully yours to another....Provokes jealousy.....which in turn should provoke you to get back on track and take care of what you are given....
And that where the Gentiles come in...Heathens, idol makers, false god worshippers....Given the word of God, the Gospel of Jesus....talking, believing, accepting, spreaking, spreading around the world...(what the Jews were suppose to do)...

Heb 11:
[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.[14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

So you might say...many Jews are still in a "stumbling" state, but will not fall.
They play a BIG PART during the Tribulation, of coming to Christ Jesus.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
We indeed have a different view of the salvation of God. For me it is really by grace, not by fulfilling some contract obligations.

I do not discount Gods Grace.
Gods Grace IS Gods "reasoning" of WHY He "offers", a corrupt man anything.
You could ask yourself, WHY DOES God (by His Grace) Make ANY OFFERS to CORRUPT men Against Him.
WHY? What BENEFIT is that to God?
* Do YOU, make deals, offerings to (cheats, liars, thieves?)
* That ^ "appears", as if, a man might tend to reassess that notion, for fear of falling prey to a scheme of a known (cheat, liar, thief).
(That ^ is because man IS NOT "ALL" knowing. And when a man KNOWS the reputation of a man IS, cheating, lying, thieving, making a deal, an offering, is "by a natural man", naturally a "cautionary" signal.

So what is Gods "edge" (so to speak) in Offering "anything" to Corrupt men?
Well...He is All knowing.
He .... establishes the "TERMS" of WHO can "receive" His Offering.
He ... establishes HOW a man CAN "COMPLY" with His TERMS.
His ... Requirement for HOW a man "CAN" COMPLY...IS EXPRESSLY...revealed...IS BY and THROUGH ... Gods Works/Gods Power.

You are implying, THE INDIVIDUAL MAN...
Can Learn the WAY...BUT

<<<You could ask yourself, WHY DOES God (by His Grace) Make ANY OFFERS to CORRUPT men Against Him.
WHY? What BENEFIT is that to God?>>>

If that is pertaining to salvation, I don’t believe God offered fallen man salvation.

Tong
R3837

 

[Tong2020]

not by fulfilling some contract obligations

I used "contract" as an example OF a mans agreement TO and fulfillment OF an obligation to KEEP YOUR WORD.

You begin with, Gods Grace, then jumped immediately to God SAVED YOU.

Did you "AGREE" by your Word, for God to Save YOU....or did God SAVE you simply because God OFFERED you Salvation?

The Point being...WHAT God Offers, WHY God Offers, TO WHOM God Offers....IS ONE THING.
UNTIL a man "ACCEPTS BY AGREEMENT" of what God Offers...
....there is NO Agreement, BY the man, to ACCEPT, Receive, Take, Have anything God is OFFERING.
....Nor is there ANY Agreement, BY God to GIVE His Offering TO a man, WHO HAS NOT ACCEPTED, His Offering.

If I offer you a piece of cake...it is yours to take....If you do not AGREE to TAKE IT...
You by default, DO NOT HAVE what I offered expressly for YOU TO HAVE.
By default, YOU LOSE, what was expressly FOR YOU, because you did not AGREE to TAKE IT.

So ... What DOES GOD "get" ..FOR His Offering of Salvation....( to Corrupt men ) when such Corrupt men... AGREES to RECEIVE Gods Offering (according to God Order, Way/ terms) ?

Do you know?

<<<Did you "AGREE" by your Word, for God to Save YOU....or did God SAVE you simply because God OFFERED you Salvation?>>>
God did not offer me salvation. But this is what I have known in my reading of His words in scriptures. That He have chosen to save me. In saving me, He had His gospel preached to me. He opened my heart. He, through the Holy Spirit, had effectively brought me to repentance unto Him and towards faith in Jesus Christ. To be honest, I just found myself believing in Him with all my heart. I don’t even remember making a choice. There, I gave you a glimpse of how God had saved me.

Tong
R3838

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I thought you understood what it means that God does not force any man to will to believe or do anything. I hope you know what it means that God does not use force nor trickery.

God does not use force nor trickery. That is definitely not of His nature. Do you not know of any way that God can make a person whom He have chosen by grace to save, come to repentance towards Him and faith in Jesus Christ? If you don’t, just ask.

I am aware of what force means.

I am not in agreement with your circular argument.
You are purporting, God offers, you receive.
However, you do not receive Gods offering;
by His force or by your agreement....

If you do not receive Gods Offering,
By His Force or By your Agreement...
Then by WHAT means do you receive His Offering?

<<<You are purporting, God offers, you receive.>>>

No I don’t. How would that be when I was clear with my position, that salvation is not an offer.

Tong
R3839

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You say you agree. So I would expect from you, from this point on, to not think that I am implying that God forces a man to choose and believe Him.

Nope.
I have expressly revealed, MY BELIEF is God Offers;
and men have FREEWILL to reject Gods Offering and thus NOT RECEIVE Gods Offering.
and
men have FREEWILL to AGREE to Gods terms and thus RECEIVE Gods Offering.

You have repeatedly rejected, argued against, a man freely ... Agreeing to Gods terms, (way)....Before Receiving Gods Offering.

But yet, you ALSO say, God does not, FORCE His Offering on anyone.

Then you say, YOU HAVE Receive An offering from God OF the Gift of SALVATION...

But you have YET to reveal....HOW YOU RECEIVED Gods Offering of Salvation.... "WITHOUT YOUR AGREEMENT" TO Receive that Gift.

Yes I did get it that your position is that God offers salvation and you can wither accept it or reject it. And my position is different from yours. Salvation is not an offer.

<<<Then you say, YOU HAVE Receive An offering from God OF the Gift of SALVATION...>>>

I don’t remember saying anything like. How could I when My position on salvation is that it is not an offer?

<<<But you have YET to reveal....HOW YOU RECEIVED Gods Offering of Salvation.... "WITHOUT YOUR AGREEMENT" TO Receive that Gift.

There is nothing for me to reveal on that. As I said, salvation is not an offer.

Tong
R3839

 

[Taken]

<<<You could ask yourself, WHY DOES God (by His Grace) Make ANY OFFERS to CORRUPT men Against Him.
WHY? What BENEFIT is that to God?>>>

If that is pertaining to salvation, I don’t believe God offered fallen man salvation.

Tong
R3837

Sure God offers Salvation to a corrupt man.
He doesn't save the saved.
He saves the unsaved, the corrupt.
He saves the man dead in his sins...
Dead meaning separated from God.

Col 2:
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses...

The question was about, what benefit it is "to God" for a man to become saved, quickened.
The answer is, a saved and quickened man, shall become (wholly whole when the body is raised in glory) Gods Inheritance.

Returning back to a man agreeing, authorizing, God to take the mans Whole life, body, soul, spirit.....change it...and Give it wholly unto Him. Thus His Inheritance for Him to HAVE and KEEP and BE your God. We authorize, agree, By the thoughts in our spirit, in our hearts and our word.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Salvation is not an offer.
Tong
R3839

Disagree, but okay for you.

 

[Taken]

Tong ~

Curious, how can a man Receive Salvation without first being Offered Salvation?

 

[amigo de christo]

Did that scare you? Did not mean to.

<<<Salvation was offered . HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST .>>>

Yes His name is Jesus Christ. Now whether Jesus Christ was offered to man by God or not, is our issue. You agree with @Taken and @Marvelloustime seems to agree as well, that salvation is offered. On the other hand I don’t share that view with you. My view is that salvation was not offered, but was accomplished by God in Christ Jesus.

I guess you have many scriptures that you think supports your view. I would request for you to give me the most clear among them that effectively says that salvation is indeed an offer by God to man. With that, I could consider it.

Tong
R3833

Because the views are one in the same . OF COURSE SALVATION was ACCOMPLISHED IN CHRIST . You are spot on right on that .
AND NOW IS OFFERED THROUGH THE GOSPEL . WE are spot on right on this as well .
Yall are barking the same things . But now that this is cleared up , AND MAN I HOPE IT IS cause by grace i made that one real simple ,
Let folks not strive over it anymore .

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<You could ask yourself, WHY DOES God (by His Grace) Make ANY OFFERS to CORRUPT men Against Him.
WHY? What BENEFIT is that to God?>>>

If that is pertaining to salvation, I don’t believe God offered fallen man salvation.

Sure God offers Salvation to a corrupt man.
He doesn't save the saved.
He saves the unsaved, the corrupt.
He saves the man dead in his sins...
Dead meaning separated from God.

Col 2:
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses...

The question was about, what benefit it is "to God" for a man to become saved, quickened.
The answer is, a saved and quickened man, shall become (wholly whole when the body is raised in glory) Gods Inheritance.

Returning back to a man agreeing, authorizing, God to take the mans Whole life, body, soul, spirit.....change it...and Give it wholly unto Him. Thus His Inheritance for Him to HAVE and KEEP and BE your God. We authorize, agree, By the thoughts in our spirit, in our hearts and our word.

Glory to God,
Taken

Sure God does not save the saved. Going back from the very beginning, God created mankind, that is, in Adam. The time came that Adam sinned. Without the details of what had become of man, in general mankind became impure and heading to hell, even the whole world to corruption. It was only a matter of time that fallen man multiplied and their corrupted heart revealed. God said of man, that every intent of the thoughts of heart is evil continually, even from his youth.

God at the time of Noah, wiped them all out from the face of the earth, saved Noah and his family of seven. Did God offer Noah and his family of seven, salvation? No. God, according to the counsel of His will, chose them and gave them His grace of salvation and spared them.

In the case of the children of Israel, whom God saved from slavery in Egypt at the time of Moses, did God offer to save them from their slavery? Did God save them because they accepted an offer of salvation by God? No. God, according to the counsel of His will, gave them His grace of salvation.

Now, regarding Jesus Christ, who is Him in relation to the children of Israel? Did God offer Him to be their Savior? No.

In relation to the rest of the world, who is Jesus Christ? Did God offer Him to them to be their Savior? No.

God gave Him to be the Lord and Savior of Mankind. Now that was not an offer. That is grace given, as was in the case with Noah and his family, and also in the case of the children of Israel at the time of Moses.

Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God Most High, is the Lord, is the Savior, and there is no other. That is the truth that God had declared to the Jews, and to the gentiles, that is, to all peoples, some 2000 years ago and is to this day, until Jesus Christ comes again. Knowledge of that truth is not offered in any way to save man, but is given for conviction, righteousness, and judgment. And to those whom God had chosen for salvation, He gives them faith and are saved.

<<<Returning back to a man agreeing, authorizing, God to take the mans Whole life, body, soul, spirit.....change it...and Give it wholly unto Him.>>>

I will not continue arguing against that with you. I have told you my different take on the salvation of God. Let it be then that you had authorized God in that regard, and so God was able to save you.

Tong
R3841