new version of OSAS?

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Salvation is not an offer.

Disagree, but okay for you.

When the gospel is preached, it is preaching the truth. Now by preaching, it does not mean offering them salvation, but means telling them the truth, that those who have ears to hear and have eyes to see, may come to the knowledge of the truth. And the truth shall set them free.

Tong
R3842

 

[Tong2020]

Tong ~

Curious, how can a man Receive Salvation without first being Offered Salvation?

First, salvation is not something that is offered which one could accept or reject.

Salvation belongs to God and is His work, according to the counsel of His will. It is grace freely given, not offered.

Now, concerning this grace, those to whom God gives it, they come to have it, according to God’s working in and on them. He does that by and through faith. He gives them faith, a faith that comes from God and is of God, different from faith that comes from man and is of man. In my other post, I have shared to you generally how I was converted by God, and had faith.

Tong
R3843

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Did that scare you? Did not mean to.

<<<Salvation was offered . HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST .>>>

Yes His name is Jesus Christ. Now whether Jesus Christ was offered to man by God or not, is our issue. You agree with @Taken and @Marvelloustime seems to agree as well, that salvation is offered. On the other hand I don’t share that view with you. My view is that salvation was not offered, but was accomplished by God in Christ Jesus.

I guess you have many scriptures that you think supports your view. I would request for you to give me the most clear among them that effectively says that salvation is indeed an offer by God to man. With that, I could consider it.

Because the views are one in the same . OF COURSE SALVATION was ACCOMPLISHED IN CHRIST . You are spot on right on that .
AND NOW IS OFFERED THROUGH THE GOSPEL . WE are spot on right on this as well .
Yall are barking the same things . But now that this is cleared up , AND MAN I HOPE IT IS cause by grace i made that one real simple ,
Let folks not strive over it anymore .

You perhaps see the two views as the same. I don’t.

When the gospel is preached, it is preaching the truth. Now by preaching, it does not mean offering people salvation, but means telling them the truth, that those who have ears to hear and have eyes to see, may come to the knowledge of the truth. And the truth shall set them free.

Tong
R3844

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Well,….

Did God offered Abraham salvation or did God give him promise of salvation?

Both. Salvation is Saving ones soul.
Abraham was Offered Salvation of his soul.
Abrahams was Offered the Promise of soul Salvation.
His soul Salvation could not be "accomplished" at that time, before his physical death.
Abrahams soul Salvation was thus a Promise to BE accomplished, at his physical death.
The soul departs from a Physical Dying body.
A physical body, returns to the earth.
Abrahams dead body was buried in a Cave.
Abrahams Saved SOUL, destination, was "IN A PLACE OF COMFORT".
That Place of Comfort, for Abrahams saved soul, was IN Hell. IN a portion part of Hell, called "Paradise".
Abrahams Saved Soul remained "there", (along with all other saved souls, departed out of physically dead and buried body's)...
UNTIL...
Abraham's Body and soul was raised up from the grave (cave where his body was buried) and hell (Where his saved soul was)....AND
Together Abrahams Body with its saved soul in his body....Walked the Earth WITH Jesus'; 40 days.
After Jesus' body (from the cave buriel) and soul (that went to hell) was Risen Up. He walked the Earth for 40 days.
After the 40 days...
Jesus' Body on earth, and soul in His body rose UP to Heaven...
Abrahams BODY returned to its Earthen grave, and his saved soul was escorted to Heaven.
THE "PLACE" called "PARADISE"...is always WHERE..."the Tree of Life located at a particular time".
When the "TREE of Life" was in the Garden,
The Garden was "Paradise"..
The Tree of Life, in the "Comfort side of Hell",
That Was Paradise.
The Tree of Life, in Heaven, that is Paradise.
The Tree of Life, ON a renew Earth, (Gods Kingdom ON Earth)...that shall be called Paradise.
"Saved" souls, departed out of Dead Bodys, are always Kept in Paradise. The saved souls LIFE, IS sustained, espressly...BY the Tree of Life.

Did God offered Abraham salvation or did God give him promise of salvation?

You said both. Please show us where in the scriptures did God offered Abraham salvation.

Tong
R3845

 

[Tong2020]

Did God offered Noah salvation

Yes.

Please show us scriptures where God offered Noah salvation.

Tong
R3846

 

[Tong2020]

Did God offer His begotten Son to be the Savior and Messiah,

Yes.

Please show us where in scriptures that God offered His begotten Son to be the Savior and Messiah.

Tong
R3847

 

[Tong2020]

Eph 5:
[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through theoffering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

IF you do not Agree to Receive His Offering...[/B]

Your whole arguement is hanging on you do not have to Consent or Agree to receive His Offering...

Explain How or Why you would receive His Offering without your Consent.

That God offered salvation to man is nowhere found in the passages you quoted.

<<<Explain How or Why you would receive His Offering without your Consent>>>

I answered this in the following link. Please kindly go to the link below if you have not yet read that post.

new version of OSAS?

Tong
R3848

 

[Taken]

(Jesus)....God gave Him to be the Lord and Savior of Mankind. Now that was not an offer. That is grace given...
Tong
R3841

Grace has multiple meanings.
What does "Gods grace given" mean to you?

Thanks.
Taken

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
It seems to me that for you man is that which is only the thing you say “was Created, with flesh, bones, tissue, organs, blood, mind, ears, eyes, nose, mouth,....”, and seems to be not including the spirit.

In brief;
Man IS formed dust of the earth.
Man with Gods Breath, IS formed dust of the earth WITH Life (from God) in the formed thing called man.

Man was created with a BRAIN, the Brain, (if you have ever seen one (which I have), or perhaps seen a picture of a Brain, it looks like grey sausage stuffed in a casing and folded back and forth on top of itself self to a heaped pile with a curve at the top of the pile. (Not that impressive LOOKING).
However the BRAIN, is connected to multiple other parts of the body, (blood, nerves, etc.),
That allows a man to Process into thoughts, what the eyes see, the ears hear, the nose smells, the skin touches/feels, the tongue tastes....which it is the MIND "processing".

The life OF the Body (is Blood.)
The life IN the Body is Gods Breath. (Soul)

The BODY, (it's life), MUST DIE.
God requires it. (Gen 9;5)

The Life in Gods Breath shall NEVER Die.
God can not Die.
Souls can continue living with Gods breath.
(Which is what a SAVED souls does...continues living with Gods breath).
Gods breath can Leave a soul, (return to God), and a Soul be destroyed.

So you know, every man has a BRAIN, and the MIND is the Brains receiving and processing of information.

The HEART can also receive information.
The information the heart receives (while the Mind is aware of the Hearts information)...
Is not always the same information as the Mind.

Meaning...the Hearts "information", "thoughts" IS the mans Absolute "NATURAL TRUTH." <---- THAT IS;
the natural spirit of man

The mind, (carnal mind), is the mans "NATURAL thoughts"...THAT CAN:
Be true, false, guessing, opinions, deceiving, embellished, half-truths, outright lies, etc.
And why, sometimes it IS in Agreement with the natural spirits absolute truth, and sometimes not.

For example...TONG...may be your True given name...(your spirit in your heart knows if that IS a true statement).
Or perhaps, TONG...is a name your MIND devised for the purpose of having a "NAME" for this forum, by which others could call you.
(While, YOU are concealing your true given name). That "option" is given you as a condition to participate on this forum. Meaning the condition for participation is you must have "A" name....but your option is, you do NOT have to reveal/use your TRUE name.
Your MIND knows the difference...Knows what is TRUE in your spirit in your heart...and Knows what it (the Minds thought) is revealing may NOT be True.

When a man Agrees to Accept Gods gift of FAITH...the man does so by HEARING Gods WORD.
Some men are receiving that GIFT of FAITH....to their natural MINDS, (hearing but not hearing, hearing but not believing)
Some men are receiving that Gift of FAITH....to their natural spirit, (hearing and believing absolute truth of Gods word).

Faith either Increases in a mans spirit.
Or Faith to a mans mind is dissected, found unfathomable, unbelievable, rejected.
Nothing has YET occurred concering Receiving Salvation.
However something IS occurring....
One is receiving Faith to his natural spirit...
One is in danger of ... FALLING FROM FAITH.
WITH TRUE FAITH in the man....
The man is also in danger of...NOT in a position (according to Gods terms/way),
TO: receive His Gift of Salvation.
Because "WITHOUT" TRUE (in a mans spirit) FAITH....that man IS NOT PREPARED;
TO:
Confess TRUE Belief or Receive Gods Gift OF Salvation.

So...turning to a man WHO Does have in his "natural spirit"...true Faith.
And that man "FROM his natural spirits TRUE FAITH"...."DOES" Confess His TRUE BELIEF....
"THEN WHAT" ?

WHAT EXACTLY has that man DONE?
That man has NOTIFIED GOD...(according to Gods Terms/WAY)...that that man IS AGREEING to Accept Gods OFFERING of SALVATION of his soul.....AND QUICKENEING of his spirit.
THAT man is AGREEING, FOR GOD to "MAKE" that man's "soul saved" and "spirit quickened". (Ie spirit born again)

The ORDER is a process.
God offers forever life to a man.
When the man FOLLOWS the ORDER and Way God provides for MAN to receive Gods OFFERING ... and "IF" the man FOLLOWS the ORDER and WAY....and "IF" the man CONSENTS.... GOD DOES ALL "HIS" works, required to GIVE everything to the man, GOD offered, and Promises (a consenting men) will receive from God.

God forgives, the man for NOT having believed. (Which we are naturally born, NOT believing in God).

God restores a mans soul. If you recall, with Adam, God called his formed body and made living soul....VERY GOOD. (Gen 1:31)
Well, then it wasn't "very good".
Restoration of our soul, (Pss 23:3) is GOD SAVING IT, by once again MAKING our soul, very good...acceptable to Him...and saved UNTO Him.
THAT man is called; SAVED
And by default KEPT from separation From Him, Kept from Him taking His Life out of the soul, Kept from Him destroying the soul.


The "natural spirit of man"... natural truth in a mans Heart, born naturally from a mans seed... becomes REBORN....FROM a DIFFERENT SEED. The Different SEED, is Gods SEED. (BTW, Gods SEED has a title, called CHRIST).
When Gods SEED is given by God (Gods works), it enters a mans .... (new heart)...
Also given by God (Gods works).
That SEED, "rebirths" a mans natural spirit, into a SPIRITUAL SPIRIT, (because God IS a Spirit, thus Gods SEED is a Spiritual Seed).
THAT SEED, "births' a new truth in that man.
A SPIRITUAL TRUTH, GODS TRUTH, (Gods TRUTH is named JESUS).
The Spirit of God, Enter the mans new heart, is Gods Truth, Abodes WITH-IN that man.
And continually FEEDS that mans new spirit, GODS TRUTH.
That man is thus called: BORN AGAIN.

God Offers, Man can by his own FREEWILL hear, learn what God Offers. Or not.
Man can by his own FREEWILL follow Gods Order and Way to Accept and Agree to Gods Offering....or not.

"THE IF"....condition terms, that IS REQUIRED of a man...which IS the man CONSENTING for God TO Save the mans soul and quicken the mans spirit

Rom 10:
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For (BECAUSE) with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Zech 12;
[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth thespirit of man within him.


Ezek 18:
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezek.36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

ORDER
First offered First man and woman called: Adam (Gen 5:2)
* Tree of Life, in the Garden for Adam to FREELY eat. (Gen 1;29)
Then offered the Jews (ie House of Israel)...
Then offered all the Tribes.
Then offered all the Gentiles.

Body, soul, spirit of a man...3 different things.
Body, soul, spirit of every Natural man, is corrupt in Gods eyes.
Each thing, has an order and way to be MADE
changed, restored, renewed...Acceptable unto God, once and forever.

Can you tell me simply what is man in your take?

For it seems to me that for you man is that which is only the thing you say “was Created, with flesh, bones, tissue, organs, blood, mind, ears, eyes, nose, mouth,....”, and seems to be not including the spirit.

Tong
R3849

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Well, many Jews worship God too as Lydia. But their heart was closed.

I said “Now, what God had opened is that which is closed, right?”, and you don’t seem to agree. So perhaps you think that God opened an already open heart? Well,…..

I disagree with your assumptions and implications.

Men worshipping God do not have a heart that is CLOSED unto God.

Men who have NOT heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, HAVE a heart that is Closed unto JESUS.

It stands to reason, you can not be OPEN, to consider or believe what you have NOT HEARD.

Not a big secret, Many people were OPENLY believing and worshipping God.
Not every person had Heard of Jesus' arrival, or His Gospel.
(We are well informed, Jesus arrived IN JUDEA, and people living in JUDEA were the FIRST to Hear of Jesus and His Word.
... And over a course of 3 years, men were Hearing, Learning About A NEW to their Ears Teaching....THOSE "trained" men set out TO: travel and teach "Other Jews" Already Worshipping God, To NEW information ABOUT Jesus' Word....
....And there after Those men were to Teach men of "other Tribes...
....And there after Saul, Already steeped in Gods Word, and OPENLY believing and Worshipping GOD was taught for 3 years IN the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
...And thereafter Saul the Jew, called Paul the Greek was sent out to Preach the Gospel of Jesus TO primarily the Gentile, (about God and Jesus ) and also the Jew...(who already was Open to Gods word).
....and So...reasonably, a person not having heard, would not be believing or worshipping what they did not know.

Lydia was CLEARLY open to Gods word, by it being revealed SHE worshiped God.
Lydia was CLEARLY "unknowing" of Jesus' Gospel, as was revealed, her Hearing of Jesus' Gospel, came to her the day, she met Paul and he preached Jesus' gospel TO HER.

What was revealed is THE Lord opened the HEART of a woman (named Lydia) ...(who already worshiped God, who was Hearing the Gospel of Jesus)....that she would receive what she was hearing from Paul, AS Gods TRUTH, via God, via Jesus, via Paul, to Her ears.

Well good for her.... With an OPEN HEART, Lydia (a worshipper and believer IN GOD), was blessed with Hearing and Receiving ADDITIONAL "knowledge" from Her God, and as she openly Believed IN God so also she openly Believe IN Gods WAY for her to receive Additional knowledge....that she immediately acted on that ADDITIONAL knowledge and Became MADE baptized with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It is NOT about her having a "closed heart"
It is a foreshadowing .... of how quickly Jews as the end of days (as we know them) approaches....God shall SEND HIS "servant teachers", with the Gospel of Jesus Christ...and Preach to Jews...already Worshipping God....and THEY will quickly receive the Gospel, believe, and become Baptized with the Holy Spirit... SAVED...and QUICKENED....Before they are swiftly killed bodily, in the end of days disasters upon the earth.

<<<I disagree with your assumptions and implications>>>

I made no assumptions. God opened Lydia’s heart. It is not an assumption to say that what God had opened is that which is close. At least closed in matters pertaining to the gospel concerning Jesus Christ. Nonetheless, the point is that, if God had not opened Lydia’s heart, she would not had heeded to the things spoken by Paul.

Lydia is said to be a worshiper of God, as the Jews are said to be. If, concerning Jesus Christ, there was need for her heart to be opened, what more of those who aren’t worshiper of God? And it was because God opened her heart, that she heeded the things spoken by Paul, that is, the gospel concerning Jesus Christ. Now, do you think that one could heed as Lydia had, if God does not open his/her heart concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ? That is my point.

And we see the gospel preached to many people all throughout the world. Some heed right away, some later, some never. What can we say about that in relation to God’s opening of the heart? Would you say that God opens the heart of each one of them? Is their free will have anything to do with that?

Tong
R3850

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You seem to assume that Lydia was only a worshiper of God and was not a worshiper of other gods.

No. I know Lydia was a worshipper of God, because Scripture says so, and I trust the Scriptures are True.
No. I do not assume or consider Lydia worshipped any other gods, because nothing Scripturally says so.

I do too. And I also do not assume that she worship other gods nor she does not.

At least that’s clear between us.

Tong
R3851

 

[Tong2020]

Now, not that Lydia was said to be a worshiper of God means that she is saved or that she is better off than others in coming to the knowledge of the truth concerning Jesus Christ.

Uh...
Worshipping God did not mean "SAV-ED".
Worshipping God Certainly meant, the person believed in God.... and Certainly meant, THAT person was already "better off" than a person who NEITHER believed or worshipped GOD AND JESUS...

<<<Worshipping God did not mean "SAV-ED".>>>

Yes. It does not necessarily follow that when one is said to be a worshiper of God, that it means he is saved. Lydia and the Jews worship God. If they are saved, what is the point of preaching Jesus Christ to them?

The Jews and Gentiles alike who are not in Christ, grave sinners or not, are alike headed to hell unless they be in Christ Jesus.

Tong
R3852

 

[Taken]

Please show us where in scriptures that God offered His begotten Son to be the Savior and Messiah.

Tong
R3847

God in Heaven, By His Will, Prepared a Body, For His Word, Gave that Body, in the likeness as a man, To the world. (That Body, had a soul, had a spirit which was NOT Given to the world...ONLY the Body God prepared Was Given TO the World.)

* God prepared and GAVE a BODY to the World.
Heb 10;
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

* That BODY came unto the world BY the WILL of God, (not man).
Heb 10;
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man but of God.

* That BODY IS the Word of God, IS God, in the Likeness as a man.
John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God , and the Word was God.
Phil 2:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

* That Word of God, who IS God, came forth out from Gods Mouth.
Isa 55:
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Gods GIVING Crystal Clear;
God prepared a Body for His Word and Sent His Word, by Gods WILL into the World, For the Whole World. God Gave that Body a Name. JESUS.

Everything God HAS GIVEN to the WHOLE WORLD...IS FOR mankind, to Freely (by mans WILL), TAKE, HAVE, USE or NOT.

Gods WORD, which God GAVE to the WORLD,
That WORD, inturn OFFERED Gods WORD, TO mankind.

Follow the steps, order, way...of JESUS.
-Observing How "earthly men", preached.
-Observing How "earthly men", behaved toward one another.
-Observing How "earthly men", exalted themselves over other men.
-Observing How "earthly men", forcefully overpowered men who would not yield down "to them."

-Openly walking about, Openly speaking, Openly "offering" men to walk and hear...
WITH Him.

The CAVEAT (condition, order, way) man Freely by his WILL, TAKE, HAVE, USE is also Crystal Clear; [/B]

That which God HAS GIVEN TO the WORLD, WAS OFFERED FOR mankind, TO TAKE, HAVE, USE....or NOT.

The CAVEAT is Crystal Clear
* That which is GIVEN, OFFERED....by the WILL of God is Gods Works.
* That which is GIVEN, OFFERED....by the WILL of God IS Conditional, per Gods ORDER and WAY
** That which is GIVEN, OFFERED.... MUST be TAKEN
....BY a mans will TO Taken the Offering.
....ACCORDING TO Gods Order and Way.

THE ORDER:
God GIVING, is Gods Works.
From the beginning God has revealed to the World...
Specific Things He HAS Given TO the WORLD.
Things men CAN SEE, Things men CAN NOT SEE.
And most importantly; Express knowledge, that those things ARE Given...BY God Himself.

THE WAY:
Everything God HAS Given, IS Freely FOR mankind TO TAKE, TO HAVE, TO USE.
THE WAY:
* Gods OFFERED Guidance; Most optimum beneficial "WAY" for mankind TO Take, TO Have, TO Use, what God Has Given and Offered.

God Gave the WORLD, Light, Darkness, seeds, Land, Fruit baring Trees, Herbs, Animals, the Sun, the Moon, Earthen minerals/ores/gems, Water....etc.

God Offered the WORLD His guidance on HOW a man Could USE those things; (According to His Way).

God OFFERED men of the World, "WHO", Agreed to Accept, TAKING what He gave, He Offered, According TO His WAY ....
Particular Blessings, Rewards, Promises.

The Caveat...repeatedly in Scripture "IF" .. a man, is WILLING, to Accept Gods Offering, .... According to Gods WAY .... "THEN" what is Offered by Gods WILL, SHALL be Received unto the man.

Matt 17:20 reveals;
IF ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed
THEN nothing shall be impossible unto you

Matt 21:21 reveals;
IF ye have faith
IF ye shall say
THEN it shall be done.

Rom 10: reveals
IF thou Believe in thy Heart, Confess Belief with thy mouth.
THEN thou Shall be Saved.

John 8: reveals
If the Son make you free
THEN ye shall be free indeed
If a man keep my saying
THEN he shall never see death.

John 10: reveals
if any man enter in Christ (through Jesus)
THEN he shall be saved

John 12 reveals
If any man serve me
THEN where I am, there shall also my servant be
if I be lifted up from the earth
THEN will draw all men unto me

IF is Gods WAY of Notice to Man.
THEN is mans Notice to God of Agreement.

 

[Taken]

Taken said;
Worshipping God did not mean "SAV-ED".

If they are saved, what is the point of preaching Jesus Christ to them?

Tong
R3852

The POINT IS: WHAT & WHEN

The difference of WHAT was was OFFERED (By God), AGREED (By men), GIVEN (By God) RECEIVED (by men).

In the OT: FAITH-ful men (to God) were OFFERED "Salvation" BY a Promise
(a Covenant);
By Gods Word, that;
* IF a man Remained Faith-ful
* WHEN their FLESH (physically) DIED
* God WOULD Save their soul.

In the NT: FAITH-ful men to God (and) NON-ful men to God were "OFFERED" by a Promise (a Covenant) ;
By Gods Word, that;
"IF' a man AGREED to receive Gods Gift of FAITH; THAT;
God WOULD, Give the man Faith.
"IF" a man Heartfully AGREED to
Heartfully Confess Heartful Belief "IN God AND IN Jesus the Christ" THAT:
God WOULD, ACCEPT a mans DEATH, (crucified) WITH Jesus' Body.
And God WOULD, Forgive a man his Sins.
And God WOULD, Save the mans soul.
And God WOULD, Quicken the mans spirit.
And God WOULD, Keep Hold and Secure, that man WITH Gods Spirit (Power)
And God WOULD, Seal that man unto Him Only.
And God WOULD, Be their God Forever.
And God WOULD, declare that man His son.
And God WOULD, Never Leave that man.
"NOW"...
"BEFORE" the mans "PHYSICAL DEATH'.

 

[Tong2020]

Unless God opens the heart, they would not and could not.

Do you consider....again the all knowing God....and to whom He Opens the heart of a man to believe in Him, believe in Jesus Christ....being the SAME, he already KNOWS, WILL believe?

Well many take the position that God does things according to his knowing things in advance. That would be another long discussion. But one thing I could say on that, is that, God does according to the counsel of His will, purpose, pleasure, and divine nature. Being omniscient is only one of those. There are lots lots more, like being loving, wise, sovereign, just, righteous, etc…

Tong
R3853

 

[MatthewG]

One saved always saved is not true.

You can be saved to the kingdom of God; a person can walk away from faith all together if they have no deep root in Christ.

Remember the Parable of the Sower?

 

[Tong2020]

What more of the gentiles who do not even have knowledge of God as do the Jews and Lydia? The more they need God to open their heart, right?

Keep in rememberance...God IS ALL KNOWING. He gives us Knowledge...we can freely accept or reject. He already KNOWS what we will do.
God opening the heart of a man....IS HIS WORKS IN A MAN....to trust to believe the knowledge the man is receiving....
And also....many men receive, hear the word of God...and will NEVER believe it, by the same token ... God can harden their hearts.
(THAT, is already known....God KNOWS us, our choices, before we are even "manifested" (born in the flesh), before we even know we HAVE choices, or what Choices we have).

God’s knowing all things has nothing to do really with the point that all the more that those who does not worship God, would not and could not heed the gospel, unless God opens their heart.

Tong
R3854

 

[Tong2020]

Do you believe that? That they would be saved, even without believing in Jesus being the Christ?

Yes and No.
Yes...IF they Faithfully continue Under the Law, their Salvation would be given them at bodily death, according to the same Fashion that applies to their Forefathers, Hebrews and Jews who were under the Law.
(Remembering, they believed in God, they believed in the Word of God....they simply did not KNOW the Word of God was Jesus, who had not yet been revealed to them.)

No in the respect, When they learn about Jesus, (as is not a primary learning Jews are teaching Jews, and Gentiles are not teaching Jews)....and tribulations arrives...JEWS who know the Gospel of Jesus WILL be sent TO TEACH the Jews...
(Two witnesses in Jerusalem & 144,000 in the mountains), then will their hearts be opened to accepting Jesus and they be Saved).

<<<Yes...IF they Faithfully continue Under the Law, their Salvation would be given them at bodily death, according to the same Fashion that applies to their Forefathers, Hebrews and Jews who were under the Law.>>>

So you are saying that, there is salvation apart from Christ? And do you think they could faithfully continue? If they could, there would be no need for a new covenant, nor there be need for Jesus Christ to have come in the flesh to do what He had done. Are you saying that they could be justified by the law?

That position runs against a lot of things written in scriptures.

Tong
R3855

 

[Tong2020]

Do you really believe that the Jews, after Jesus Christ has completed His work on earth, could be saved apart from Christ?

Do you believe that the Jews at the time of Jesus and until today, can possibly be faithful to God, even remain faithful, when they do not believe in Jesus Christ?

Considering...WHY so many Jews can not believe in Jesus Christ their messiah...
Several reasons...appeared as an ordinary man, had no kingship status, wealth, army, kingdom, they continued to be persecuted,
But also why IS...

Hebrews, tribesmen, Israel, Jews....were always First...First to hear, First to connect with God, and when so many Jews, especially the Jewish Rabbis and Teachers and Pharisees were so arrogant, rejecting, backstabbing, plotting.....just like with their land they did not care for (according to God)....God had said eons ago, if one will not care for what He offers to give, He will give it to another.....
Giving what you believe is rightfully yours to another....Provokes jealousy.....which in turn should provoke you to get back on track and take care of what you are given....
And that where the Gentiles come in...Heathens, idol makers, false god worshippers....Given the word of God, the Gospel of Jesus....talking, believing, accepting, spreaking, spreading around the world...(what the Jews were suppose to do)...

Heb 11:
[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.[14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

So you might say...many Jews are still in a "stumbling" state, but will not fall.
They play a BIG PART during the Tribulation, of coming to Christ Jesus.

Irrelevant.

Tong
R3856

 

[Taken]

Well many take the position that God does things according to his knowing things in advance. That would be another long discussion. But one thing I could say on that, is that, God does according to the counsel of His will, purpose, pleasure, and divine nature. Being omniscient is only one of those. There are lots lots more, like being loving, wise, sovereign, just, righteous, etc…

Tong
R3853

Yes God creates according to His Will.
God makes according to His Will.
God made man Alive with man own Freewill.
What God Offers man man may Freely elect to Take or Reject.
God gives man beneficial guidance and foreknown consequences for mans choices.

Adam was Created a body of dust with a natural spirit (his natural truth in his heart) and Made alive with Gods breath of life.
Adam was given options to freely take or freely reject.
God guided Adam to eat of all trees.
God guided Adam to not eat of one particular tree and gave the foreknowledge of consequences for what Adam would choose.

God gives Faith for hearing His Word.
Adam heard.
Adam freely choose.
Adam received the consequence for his choice.

The basics are the SAME from beginning to end.
God gives Faith for hearing Gods Word
Men hear
Men freely choose
Men have the foreknowledge consequence of their choice.
God is Faithul to give each man according to the mans choice.

The difference between OT and NT Covenant, IS WHEN a man WILL elect to (or not) receive Gods Offering of His Works to Convert a man.

1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.