new version of OSAS?

[Taken]

God’s knowing all things has nothing to do really with the point that all the more that those who does not worship God, would not and could not heed the gospel, unless God opens their heart.

Tong
R3854

Faith IS required BEFORE a heart is opened.
Lydia already had Faith IN God.
Lydia Hearing Pauls preaching of the Word of God...Gave Lydia Faith in the Lord.
The Lord Opening her Heart that she might believe what she was hearing.
(By knowing the "ending", we already have been taught, what one does for the "ending" to be accomplished)
The "ending" (about Lydia)...she was Baptized with the Holy Spirit.
What we already know...
- A person hearing receive Faith
- A person with Faith (even the size of a mustard seed)...Who Chooses to Confess Belief in the Lord God...becomes Converted, by the WORKS of God and thus prepared to receive Gods Holy Spirit...
Baptism.

 

[Taken]

So you are saying that, there is salvation apart from Christ?

No. Moreso, there is Salvation 'apart' from "understanding".

Heb 13:
[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Whether not not a man "understands" the Lamb was slain before man was created.
The man who believes the Word of God, whether or not the man knows His name...
Yes I trust God knows a mans true heart.

And do you think they could faithfully continue?

Already proven some have for 6,000 years.

If they could, there would be no need for a new covenant,

Some Jews have strayed. Losing one, not secret, the Lord seeks the Lost.
And...Glory to Gods Wisdom, highly beneficial for the Gentiles.

nor there be need for Jesus Christ to have come in the flesh to do what He had done.

Absolutely necessary. God said. God can not lie.

Are you saying that they could be justified by the law?

Absolutely not. Justified by Faith.

That position runs against a lot of things written in scriptures.

Perhaps your questions runs against things written in scriptures, but my answers do not.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
(Jesus)....God gave Him to be the Lord and Savior of Mankind. Now that was not an offer. That is grace given...

Grace has multiple meanings.
What does "Gods grace given" mean to you?

Thanks.
Taken

God’s grace refers to divine favor (divine kindness). It comes forth from God and is given, freely that is, by God to all whom He wills to give it, according to His will, purpose, pleasure, and divine nature.

Unlike among man, were favor and kindness can be something that may be earned or merited or deserved, God’s grace needless to say, is obviously different from that of the world. God gives grace to whomever He wills to give it and gives it not as the world gives.

God gave grace to Noah. He was not offered it, but was given him. God gave grace to Abraham. He was not offered it, but was given him. God gave grace to Peter. He was not offered it but was given him. God gave grace to Paul. He was not offered it but was given him.

Now, anything good that comes freely from God and freely given man is grace from God. We should not confuse rewards from grace that comes from God. Consider the many gifts of the Holy Spirit such as knowledge, understanding, faith, healing , and power to heal, to teach, etc.. such are freely given and are had by those who were given it. They are not offered and are not had by man’s free will choice. No man could work nor do any work to have them. Let’s look at faith. There is faith that comes from and is of God, and faith that is of man. Many seems to not be aware of this. If one have this faith that comes from God, certainly it was because God had given it to him. God has His way as to how a person would have it. What I can say about that in general is that it is a divine work and is supernatural.

Tong
R3857

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Please show us where in scriptures that God offered His begotten Son to be the Savior and Messiah.

God in Heaven, By His Will, Prepared a Body, For His Word, Gave that Body, in the likeness as a man, To the world. (That Body, had a soul, had a spirit which was NOT Given to the world...ONLY the Body God prepared Was Given TO the World.)

* God prepared and GAVE a BODY to the World.
Heb 10;
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

* That BODY came unto the world BY the WILL of God, (not man).
Heb 10;
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man but of God.

* That BODY IS the Word of God, IS God, in the Likeness as a man.
John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God , and the Word was God.
Phil 2:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

* That Word of God, who IS God, came forth out from Gods Mouth.
Isa 55:
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Gods GIVING Crystal Clear;
God prepared a Body for His Word and Sent His Word, by Gods WILL into the World, For the Whole World. God Gave that Body a Name. JESUS.

Everything God HAS GIVEN to the WHOLE WORLD...IS FOR mankind, to Freely (by mans WILL), TAKE, HAVE, USE or NOT.

Gods WORD, which God GAVE to the WORLD,
That WORD, inturn OFFERED Gods WORD, TO mankind.

Follow the steps, order, way...of JESUS.
-Observing How "earthly men", preached.
-Observing How "earthly men", behaved toward one another.
-Observing How "earthly men", exalted themselves over other men.
-Observing How "earthly men", forcefully overpowered men who would not yield down "to them."

-Openly walking about, Openly speaking, Openly "offering" men to walk and hear...
WITH Him.

The CAVEAT (condition, order, way) man Freely by his WILL, TAKE, HAVE, USE is also Crystal Clear; [/B]

That which God HAS GIVEN TO the WORLD, WAS OFFERED FOR mankind, TO TAKE, HAVE, USE....or NOT.

The CAVEAT is Crystal Clear
* That which is GIVEN, OFFERED....by the WILL of God is Gods Works.
* That which is GIVEN, OFFERED....by the WILL of God IS Conditional, per Gods ORDER and WAY
** That which is GIVEN, OFFERED.... MUST be TAKEN
....BY a mans will TO Taken the Offering.
....ACCORDING TO Gods Order and Way.

THE ORDER:
God GIVING, is Gods Works.
From the beginning God has revealed to the World...
Specific Things He HAS Given TO the WORLD.
Things men CAN SEE, Things men CAN NOT SEE.
And most importantly; Express knowledge, that those things ARE Given...BY God Himself.

THE WAY:
Everything God HAS Given, IS Freely FOR mankind TO TAKE, TO HAVE, TO USE.
THE WAY:
* Gods OFFERED Guidance; Most optimum beneficial "WAY" for mankind TO Take, TO Have, TO Use, what God Has Given and Offered.

God Gave the WORLD, Light, Darkness, seeds, Land, Fruit baring Trees, Herbs, Animals, the Sun, the Moon, Earthen minerals/ores/gems, Water....etc.

God Offered the WORLD His guidance on HOW a man Could USE those things; (According to His Way).

God OFFERED men of the World, "WHO", Agreed to Accept, TAKING what He gave, He Offered, According TO His WAY ....
Particular Blessings, Rewards, Promises.

The Caveat...repeatedly in Scripture "IF" .. a man, is WILLING, to Accept Gods Offering, .... According to Gods WAY .... "THEN" what is Offered by Gods WILL, SHALL be Received unto the man.

Matt 17:20 reveals;
IF ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed
THEN nothing shall be impossible unto you

Matt 21:21 reveals;
IF ye have faith
IF ye shall say
THEN it shall be done.

Rom 10: reveals
IF thou Believe in thy Heart, Confess Belief with thy mouth.
THEN thou Shall be Saved.

John 8: reveals
If the Son make you free
THEN ye shall be free indeed
If a man keep my saying
THEN he shall never see death.

John 10: reveals
if any man enter in Christ (through Jesus)
THEN he shall be saved

John 12 reveals
If any man serve me
THEN where I am, there shall also my servant be
if I be lifted up from the earth
THEN will draw all men unto me

IF is Gods WAY of Notice to Man.
THEN is mans Notice to God of Agreement.

Sorry, but what you actually have shown is that God gave and not that God offered. Only perhaps that you view what God had given as being an offer to you. And with the scriptures you quoted, I could understand why such view.

Let me share this again. People are naturally born fallen, that is, corrupted, impure. Every intents of the thoughts of his heart is evil continually, even from his youth. God Himself revealed that of fallen man. People are naturally born with a body of sin corrupted flesh, which apostle Paul appropriately called “body of death”. The Holy Spirit through Paul said of it, as nothing good there dwells. With that state and condition of fallen mankind, what choices and work do you think could naturally be expected out of him? With that, one comes to understand why the salvation of God is of faith and not of works. And why God gave His Son to save His chosen people and not be as an offer of salvation. But that was not all. God also gave His Son to be their friend, brother, Advocate, Mediator, Teacher, Shepherd, Head, King, etc., and their LORD. And that is not also an offer, but is what God will accomplish in them, individually and collectively as a people, as a family.

Tong
R3858

 

[Tong2020]

One saved always saved is not true.

You can be saved to the kingdom of God; a person can walk away from faith all together if they have no deep root in Christ.

Remember the Parable of the Sower?

That I think is the case for those who take salvation as being of them and as not of God. I think they know not or are not aware that there is faith that comes from and is of God, and faith that is of man. The fallen human being have the natural power of faith, though faith that is of man. They can believe and trust in themselves, in other people, in the knowledge of science, etc. But that is not the faith that comes from God and is of God.

I think that when one’s faith is that of man, as I have described above, is that which is involved and at work in him, such a one will have such mind and thought, having not the peace of assurance and certainty that the faith that comes from and is of God empowers him. For such faith that is of man have no power as that of the faith that comes from and is of God, such as is the faith of Jesus.

Tong
R3859

 

[Renniks]

So, I ask you in this new thread: what do you believe about the new version of OSAS?

The version that says that if you stop believing, you even continue to be saved?

Nonsense. Belief is the basic requirement for salvation.

 

[Taken]

God’s grace refers to divine favor (divine kindness). It comes forth from God and is given, freely that is, by God to all whom He wills to give it, according to His will, purpose, pleasure, and divine nature.

I lean more toward, God Reveals by and through His Word, His Knowledge of what He has Created, Made and Offers and Withholds, expressly to Whom and What and When and Why.
(His Order and Way).

God gives grace to whomever He wills to give it and gives it not as the world gives.

Absolutely.
The fact to not be ignored, IS, God is all knowing.
* He OFFERS His Knowledge of WHAT He HAS and IS WILLING to GIVE to ALL men...(WHO stand "UPRIGHTLY" WITH Him.)
* Men are NOT all knowing. Men OF the world are WILLING, to GIVE, "grace, kudos, favors, positions, pardons"...to "ANYONE", (including the corrupt), "IF" it advances Benefit FOR the one GIVING.

God gave grace to Noah. He was not offered it, but was given him. God gave grace to Abraham. He was not offered it, but was given him. God gave grace to Peter. He was not offered it but was given him. God gave grace to Paul. He was not offered it but was given him.

Everthing God Created and Made is His.
What "kinds" of things God Created and Made, (in this case in point), Terrestrials (earthly 'kinds' of things, specifically "Man-Kind" of things)
- Gen 1:26...1 Cor 15:40...

Men "Created" out of the Earth...
Were "Made" overseers OF the Earth.
Via "envy and greed" men have killed men corrupted the Earth.
* So WHO, and WHY DID God "offer" His "grace" TO? (The whole world, of men, via His Pleasure)
* And WHO, and WHY DOES God "give" His "grace" TO? (Men, Via His Pleasure, whom God SEES "they themselves" Have "GRACE").

How do we KNOW THAT?
Through the OT history of godly men, enduring hardships at the hands of ungodly men, and maintaining of men to remain godly, maintaining godly precepts toward other men, revealing their "own" grace...that God Himself can SEE, and Accounts, and by His own WILL, favor men WHO mimick Gods Grace toward other men.

(That ties into...the big picture for mankind.
You don't have to agree with all men, You don't have to like all men...But the Grace of a man...is to AVOID vengeance Against what a man does not agree with or like.

Noah; a preacher of righteousness (2 Pet 2:5)
During Noah's day unrighteousness upon the earth was flourishing.
Noah; against "mindful logic of man", trusting the spiritual word of God...Labored building an Ark on DRY land according to Gods instruction.
Beginning with Noah, (that you first mention) to Abram, to Moses, Joseph, Peter, Paul, others through history... Gods Grace Established, Gods Offering and Willingness to Give, (according TO His WILL)....is revealed, Gods WILL TO "Give" His GRACE TO a man, IS directly proportionate to the individual mans OWN display of "grace" among and toward men.

Noah's Day...the world, the people thereof...
Corrupt, merriment, ears closed to God...
Yet Noah, (head of his household)...avoided joining in with the corrupt, nor was vindictive toward the corrupt...Keeping his ears and eyes and doings and household;
focused ON GOD....and forward through history we have of published Scripture...
The Established Known Grace of God, we historically can Find, IS GIVEN, to whom God WILLS, and His WILL of Giving His Grace, is Repeated GIVEN to men WHO themselves ARE "graceful" among men.
And the point IS...Our all knowing God, precisely KNOWS, which men ARE and ARE not themselves "graceful" toward all other men (whether or not they agree with them or like them).

Gen 6:
[8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 19:
[19] Behold now, thy servant hath found grace B]in thy sight [/B] ...

Gen 39:
[4] And Joseph found grace in his sight ...

Moses, David, Gideon, Ruth, Joab, Peter, Paul and others not mentioned IN Scripture...
Summed up...
Be graceful, Receive Gods Grace.

John 1:
[16] And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Now, anything good that comes freely from God and freely given man is grace from God. We should not confuse rewards from grace that comes from God. Consider the many gifts of the Holy Spirit such as knowledge, understanding, faith, healing , and power to heal, to teach, etc.. such are freely given and are had by those who were given it. They are not offered and are not had by man’s free will choice. No man could work nor do any work to have them. Let’s look at faith. There is faith that comes from and is of God, and faith that is of man. Many seems to not be aware of this. If one have this faith that comes from God, certainly it was because God had given it to him. God has His way as to how a person would have it. What I can say about that in general is that it is a divine work and is supernatural.

There are fine lines between what's God's Offerings and God's Givings (within a man)
And the "blurring" of God's Offerings and God's Givings...pursuant to the reality of men OF the world sitting in status positions of "power" "offering, then dictating and forcing effects (upon outside physical man).

God established by Creating and Making for His Pleasure; to whit the "created and made" man had no say.
It is the "re-Making"... (through Gods Grace of His Offering OF blessings, faith, forgiveness, restoration, saving, quickening; to whit the "created and made" were "MADE" with freewill to have a say, to pick and choose, to be agreeable, consenting, to Gods offer of a "reMAKE"... or not.

 

[Taken]

Sorry, but what you actually have shown is that God gave and not that God offered.

No need to be sorry or critical that our understanding is Different. It's not either or.
* God creates and makes and God Gives and God Offers and God Gives and God Takes Away and God Offers and God re-Makes and God Gives Forever.
The Balance hangs on first grade taught applicability of who, what, when, why, where.

Only perhaps that you view what God had given as being an offer to you. And with the scriptures you quoted, I could understand why such view.

For a brief example; God created and made me, (natural body, natural spirit, His breath of soul life), without my input whatsoever.
Thereafter, was His Offering of Re-Making, me, (justified body, to be changed and claimed by Him, supernatural spirit, restoration of my soul)...
My option to Agree, or not. His Promise to Give me those things Via His Works "IF" I Agree.

Let me share this again. People are naturally born fallen, that is, corrupted, impure. Every intents of the thoughts of his heart is evil continually, even from his youth. God Himself revealed that of fallen man. People are naturally born with a body of sin corrupted flesh, which apostle Paul appropriately called “body of death”. The Holy Spirit through Paul said of it, as nothing good there dwells. With that state and condition of fallen mankind, what choices and work do you think could naturally be expected out of him? With that, one comes to understand why the salvation of God is of faith and not of works. And why God gave His Son to save

Nothing new that I have not already said myself.

... to save His chosen people and not be as an offer of salvation.

HERE IS WHERE IT GETS bland between us.
**...."TO save His Chosen people..."
"WHO exactly are....His Chosen People"?
"WHEN" exactly did they become His Chosen People?
"WHY" exactly did they Become...His CHosen People?
"HOW" exactly did they Become...His Chosen People?

But that was not all. God also gave His Son to be their friend, brother, Advocate, Mediator, Teacher, Shepherd, Head, King, etc., and their LORD. And that is not also an offer, but is what God will accomplish in them, individually and collectively as a people, as a family.

And? What about all the "People NOT His Chosen?"....Was His Son NOT "GIVEN" TO THEM For those things?

On a bright sunny day in your neighborhood; God gives you that too...but "IF" you decline to be exposed to the sun, you can sit in your basement with the drapes drawn.

While God Gave the whole world His Son, and His Son Offered His Body for the Life of the World....some people Choose to rather not accept His Offering.

John 3:
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,


THE, Caveat....A person MUST Accept what He has Given or Offered.


John 3:
[16]....that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through theoffering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[Tong2020]

Yes God creates according to His Will.
God makes according to His Will.
God made man Alive with man own Freewill.
What God Offers man man may Freely elect to Take or Reject.
God gives man beneficial guidance and foreknown consequences for mans choices.

Adam was Created a body of dust with a natural spirit (his natural truth in his heart) and Made alive with Gods breath of life.
Adam was given options to freely take or freely reject.
God guided Adam to eat of all trees.
God guided Adam to not eat of one particular tree and gave the foreknowledge of consequences for what Adam would choose.

God gives Faith for hearing His Word.
Adam heard.
Adam freely choose.
Adam received the consequence for his choice.

The basics are the SAME from beginning to end.
God gives Faith for hearing Gods Word
Men hear
Men freely choose
Men have the foreknowledge consequence of their choice.
God is Faithul to give each man according to the mans choice.

The difference between OT and NT Covenant, IS WHEN a man WILL elect to (or not) receive Gods Offering of His Works to Convert a man.

1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

<<<What God Offers man man may Freely elect to Take or Reject.>>>

Agree. But our issue is whether the grace of the salvation of God is an offer or not. Your take is that it is an offer. On the other hand my take is that it is not.

All you need to do is show at least a couple of scriptures that supports your take. On the other hand, that there is no scriptures that speaks that the grace of the salvation of God is an offer supports my take.

So, if you have scriptures to show, do so. Thanks.

Tong
R3860

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
God’s knowing all things has nothing to do really with the point that all the more that those who does not worship God, would not and could not heed the gospel, unless God opens their heart.

Faith IS required BEFORE a heart is opened.
Lydia already had Faith IN God.
Lydia Hearing Pauls preaching of the Word of God...Gave Lydia Faith in the Lord.
The Lord Opening her Heart that she might believe what she was hearing.
(By knowing the "ending", we already have been taught, what one does for the "ending" to be accomplished)
The "ending" (about Lydia)...she was Baptized with the Holy Spirit.
What we already know...
- A person hearing receive Faith
- A person with Faith (even the size of a mustard seed)...Who Chooses to Confess Belief in the Lord God...becomes Converted, by the WORKS of God and thus prepared to receive Gods Holy Spirit...
Baptism.

<<<Faith IS required BEFORE a heart is opened.>>>

I disagree. Consider Abram. Consider the people who aren’t of the children of Israel, the gentiles, who were not a worshiper of God.

And what faith are you referring to? Faith that is of man, or faith that comes from and is of God?

Tong
R3861

 

[marks]

Sorry, but what you actually have shown is that God gave and not that God offered. Only perhaps that you view what God had given as being an offer to you. And with the scriptures you quoted, I could understand why such view.

My thinking is that an invitation to receive constitutes an offer to give. Isn't that right?

Much love!

 

[marks]

<<<Faith IS required BEFORE a heart is opened.>>>

I disagree. Consider Abram. Consider the people who aren’t of the children of Israel, the gentiles, who were not a worshiper of God.

And what faith are you referring to? Faith that is of man, or faith that comes from and is of God?

Tong
R3861

Galatians 2:16 KJV
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, having believed in Jesus Christ, now to be justified by the faith of Christ.

We believe, and that so we might be justified by His faith. Our choice to believe Him, to receive Him, we then receive all He Is.

Much love!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So you are saying that, there is salvation apart from Christ

No. Moreso, there is Salvation 'apart' from "understanding".

Heb 13:
[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Whether not not a man "understands" the Lamb was slain before man was created.
The man who believes the Word of God, whether or not the man knows His name...
Yes I trust God knows a mans true heart.

God is the Savior. There is no other. Jesus Christ is the only Savior. There is no other. Without the Savior, mankind will remain fallen and in a state of death until the time God pours out His wrath upon them and wipe them off the earth and send them with the fallen angels to the lake of fire. There is no salvation apart from the Savior, who was revealed and manifested some 2000 years ago, that is, Jesus Christ.

Tong2020 said: ↑
And do you think they could faithfully continue?

Already proven some have for 6,000 years.

Yes, proven otherwise. That is exactly why there was need for a new covenant, there was need for Word of God to become flesh, there was need for faith to come and given them.

We should not set aside the grace of God, for if there was salvation other than by the grace of God in Christ Jesus, then Christ died in vain.

Remember, that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That all have sinned is indisputable and that the wage of sin is death is inevitable. So that, the mercy of God and His grace of forgiveness does not mean that the due and just payment and suffering for the penalty of sin is done away with. In the perfect justice of God, every sin will receive its wage, and not a single sin is left unpunished or unpaid.

Tong2020 said: ↑
If they could, there would be no need for a new covenant

Some Jews have strayed. Losing one, not secret, the Lord seeks the Lost.
And...Glory to Gods Wisdom, highly beneficial for the Gentiles.

So tell us, why was there need for a new covenant if at all, the old
Covenant people could remain faithful?

Tong2020 said: ↑
nor there be need for Jesus Christ to have come in the flesh to do what He had done.

Absolutely necessary. God said. God can not lie.

That is exactly my point, that there is no salvation apart from Christ.

So, tell us why it is absolutely necessary.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Are you saying that they could be justified by the law?

Absolutely not. Justified by Faith.

Exactly. Please tell us why they could not be justified by the law.

Tong
R3862

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
God’s grace refers to divine favor (divine kindness). It comes forth from God and is given, freely that is, by God to all whom He wills to give it, according to His will, purpose, pleasure, and divine nature.

I lean more toward, God Reveals by and through His Word, His Knowledge of what He has Created, Made and Offers and Withholds, expressly to Whom and What and When and Why.
(His Order and Way).

What in what I said do you not agree with or you object to?

Tong2020 said: ↑
God gives grace to whomever He wills to give it and gives it not as the world gives.

Absolutely.
The fact to not be ignored, IS, God is all knowing.
* He OFFERS His Knowledge of WHAT He HAS and IS WILLING to GIVE to ALL men...(WHO stand "UPRIGHTLY" WITH Him.)
* Men are NOT all knowing. Men OF the world are WILLING, to GIVE, "grace, kudos, favors, positions, pardons"...to "ANYONE", (including the corrupt), "IF" it advances Benefit FOR the one GIVING.

Do you then agree that, regarding the part “God gives grace to whomever He wills to give it…”, speaks of God’s absolute sovereignty over mankind and that His giving of grace depends not on anything else but on Him?

Also regarding the part “and gives it not as the world gives.”, please tell how you understand that since you said “absolutely”.

<<<* He OFFERS His Knowledge of WHAT He HAS and IS WILLING to GIVE to ALL men...(WHO stand "UPRIGHTLY" WITH Him.)>>>

Knowledge of what He has and is willing to give or of anything about the things of the Spirit of God is not offered, but is revealed and declared.

More so, not all men gets to have such knowledge. And even among those who read such knowledge in scriptures or hear it preached by someone, not all of them gets to have such knowledge. For it was told us in scriptures, that the natural man cannot know them, for they are spiritually discerned. If you believe that, let me ask, how then could the natural man know them? And if and when they know them, do they not then have the knowledge? And having it, can you tell us how that is an offer?

Tong2020 said: ↑
God gave grace to Noah. He was not offered it, but was given him. God gave grace to Abraham. He was not offered it, but was given him. God gave grace to Peter. He was not offered it but was given him. God gave grace to Paul. He was not offered it but was given him.

Everthing God Created and Made is His.
What "kinds" of things God Created and Made, (in this case in point), Terrestrials (earthly 'kinds' of things, specifically "Man-Kind" of things)
- Gen 1:26...1 Cor 15:40...

Men "Created" out of the Earth...
Were "Made" overseers OF the Earth.
Via "envy and greed" men have killed men corrupted the Earth.
* So WHO, and WHY DID God "offer" His "grace" TO? (The whole world, of men, via His Pleasure)
* And WHO, and WHY DOES God "give" His "grace" TO? (Men, Via His Pleasure, whom God SEES "they themselves" Have "GRACE").

How do we KNOW THAT?
Through the OT history of godly men, enduring hardships at the hands of ungodly men, and maintaining of men to remain godly, maintaining godly precepts toward other men, revealing their "own" grace...that God Himself can SEE, and Accounts, and by His own WILL, favor men WHO mimick Gods Grace toward other men.

(That ties into...the big picture for mankind.
You don't have to agree with all men, You don't have to like all men...But the Grace of a man...is to AVOID vengeance Against what a man does not agree with or like.

Noah; a preacher of righteousness (2 Pet 2:5)
During Noah's day unrighteousness upon the earth was flourishing.
Noah; against "mindful logic of man", trusting the spiritual word of God...Labored building an Ark on DRY land according to Gods instruction.
Beginning with Noah, (that you first mention) to Abram, to Moses, Joseph, Peter, Paul, others through history... Gods Grace Established, Gods Offering and Willingness to Give, (according TO His WILL)....is revealed, Gods WILL TO "Give" His GRACE TO a man, IS directly proportionate to the individual mans OWN display of "grace" among and toward men.

Noah's Day...the world, the people thereof...
Corrupt, merriment, ears closed to God...
Yet Noah, (head of his household)...avoided joining in with the corrupt, nor was vindictive toward the corrupt...Keeping his ears and eyes and doings and household;
focused ON GOD....and forward through history we have of published Scripture...
The Established Known Grace of God, we historically can Find, IS GIVEN, to whom God WILLS, and His WILL of Giving His Grace, is Repeated GIVEN to men WHO themselves ARE "graceful" among men.
And the point IS...Our all knowing God, precisely KNOWS, which men ARE and ARE not themselves "graceful" toward all other men (whether or not they agree with them or like them).

Gen 6:
[8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 19:
[19] Behold now, thy servant hath found grace B]in thy sight [/B] ...

Gen 39:
[4] And Joseph found grace in his sight ...

Moses, David, Gideon, Ruth, Joab, Peter, Paul and others not mentioned IN Scripture...
Summed up...
Be graceful, Receive Gods Grace.

John 1:
[16] And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

It seems to me that you take the grace of God as a reward. Which makes the grace of salvation a reward rather than what it is, that is, grace.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Now, anything good that comes freely from God and freely given man is grace from God. We should not confuse rewards from grace that comes from God. Consider the many gifts of the Holy Spirit such as knowledge, understanding, faith, healing , and power to heal, to teach, etc.. such are freely given and are had by those who were given it. They are not offered and are not had by man’s free will choice. No man could work nor do any work to have them. Let’s look at faith. There is faith that comes from and is of God, and faith that is of man. Many seems to not be aware of this. If one have this faith that comes from God, certainly it was because God had given it to him. God has His way as to how a person would have it. What I can say about that in general is that it is a divine work and is supernatural.

There are fine lines between what's God's Offerings and God's Givings (within a man)
And the "blurring" of God's Offerings and God's Givings...pursuant to the reality of men OF the world sitting in status positions of "power" "offering, then dictating and forcing effects (upon outside physical man).

God established by Creating and Making for His Pleasure; to whit the "created and made" man had no say.
It is the "re-Making"... (through Gods Grace of His Offering OF blessings, faith, forgiveness, restoration, saving, quickening; to whit the "created and made" were "MADE" with freewill to have a say, to pick and choose, to be agreeable, consenting, to Gods offer of a "reMAKE"... or not.

<<<It is the "re-Making"... (through Gods Grace of His Offering OF blessings, faith, forgiveness, restoration, saving, quickening; to whit the "created and made" were "MADE" with freewill to have a say, to pick and choose, to be agreeable, consenting, to Gods offer of a "reMAKE"... or not.>>>

As I pointed out, Faith is not something offered. It is a spiritual gift, freely given by God to those to whom He wills to give it. And to whom He gives it to, surely will have it. It is not a matter of the fallen man’s will but of God’s.

Tong
R3863

 

[Tong2020]

For a brief example; God created and made me, (natural body, natural spirit, His breath of soul life), without my input whatsoever.
Thereafter, was His Offering of Re-Making, me, (justified body, to be changed and claimed by Him, supernatural spirit, restoration of my soul)...
My option to Agree, or not. His Promise to Give me those things Via His Works "IF" I Agree.

We were created by God in Adam in the beginning. We come into actual personal existence by the natural birth. And yes, you and I have nothing at all to do with that.

However, I do not find in scriptures an offer of remaking. Please show scriptures where that is coming from.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Let me share this again. People are naturally born fallen, that is, corrupted, impure. Every intents of the thoughts of his heart is evil continually, even from his youth. God Himself revealed that of fallen man. People are naturally born with a body of sin corrupted flesh, which apostle Paul appropriately called “body of death”. The Holy Spirit through Paul said of it, as nothing good there dwells. With that state and condition of fallen mankind, what choices and work do you think could naturally be expected out of him? With that, one comes to understand why the salvation of God is of faith and not of works. And why God gave His Son to save

Nothing new that I have not already said myself.

If you claim to have said all those yourself, then I understand that you believe all of that.

So, what is your answer to the question, “With that state and condition of fallen mankind, what choices and work do you think could naturally be expected out of him?”

Tong2020 said: ↑
... to save His chosen people and not be as an offer of salvation

HERE IS WHERE IT GETS bland between us.
**...."TO save His Chosen people..."
"WHO exactly are....His Chosen People"?
"WHEN" exactly did they become His Chosen People?
"WHY" exactly did they Become...His CHosen People?
"HOW" exactly did they Become...His Chosen People?

<<<"WHO exactly are....His Chosen People"?>>>

Needless really to say is that they are those whom we read in the scriptures such as the men and women mentioned in Hebrews 11, the remnants of Israel according to the election of grace, the seed of Abraham, not the children according to the flesh, but the children of promise, like Isaac. And exactly who they are, will be known with utmost certainty and without mistake, at the time of the revealing of the sons of God. For now, we could only take them to be those who profess to have faith in God and Jesus Christ and on the basis of the indications set forth in the scriptures concerning them.

<<<"WHEN" exactly did they become His Chosen People?>>>

Scriptures said that they were chosen even before the foundation of the world.

<<<"WHY" exactly did they Become...His CHosen People?>>>

God has His purpose and reasons for sure, in choosing them. Some take the position that God chose them because they chose Him and love Him. However, that is inconsistent with the truth that they chose and love God because God first chose and loved them.

<<<"HOW" exactly did they Become...His Chosen People?>>>

By His sovereign will of course.

And He does it by the election of grace such as how it was with the remnants of Israel mentioned in Romans 11:5.

Tong2020 said: ↑
But that was not all. God also gave His Son to be their friend, brother, Advocate, Mediator, Teacher, Shepherd, Head, King, etc., and their LORD. And that is not also an offer, but is what God will accomplish in them, individually and collectively as a people, as a family.

And? What about all the "People NOT His Chosen?"....Was His Son NOT "GIVEN" TO THEM For those things?

On a bright sunny day in your neighborhood; God gives you that too...but "IF" you decline to be exposed to the sun, you can sit in your basement with the drapes drawn.

While God Gave the whole world His Son, and His Son Offered His Body for the Life of the World....some people Choose to rather not accept His Offering.

John 3:
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,


THE, Caveat....A person MUST Accept what He has Given or Offered.


John 3:
[16]....that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through theoffering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

<<<What about all the "People NOT His Chosen?">>>

And what about them? I fully trust in the goodness, wisdom, and judgment of God. I have no doubt whatsoever that the election of grace is righteous and good, even while to the eyes and thinking of people, according to human thinking, reasoning, wisdom, philosophy, and moral standards of the world, they find it objectionable, unreasonable, unrighteous, unjust, or what.

<<<Was His Son NOT "GIVEN" TO THEM For those things?>>>

You tell me. Why would the Father give His Son to the unchosen, as pertaining to salvation unto eternal life? Though He was given to them as pertaining to salvation from His wrath such as that He poured out at the time of Noah, where all were wiped off the earth and were all killed, saved Noah and seven of his family, who received grace from God.

<<<some people Choose to rather not accept His Offering.

....A person MUST Accept what He has Given or Offered.>>>

Why, to whom do you think Jesus’ offering is offered to for acceptance? Do you think it is offered to man for their acceptance?

Tong
R3864

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Sorry, but what you actually have shown is that God gave and not that God offered. Only perhaps that you view what God had given as being an offer to you. And with the scriptures you quoted, I could understand why such view.

My thinking is that an invitation to receive constitutes an offer to give. Isn't that right?

Much love!

That is very much in line with how it is with the reality and being of fallen man.

But with God, as with regards the grace of the salvation of God, it is not like so. I say that because I find no scriptures that speaks of God offering the grace of salvation.

Tong
R3865

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Faith IS required BEFORE a heart is opened.>>>

I disagree. Consider Abram. Consider the people who aren’t of the children of Israel, the gentiles, who were not a worshiper of God.

And what faith are you referring to? Faith that is of man, or faith that comes from and is of God?

Galatians 2:16 KJV
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, having believed in Jesus Christ, now to be justified by the faith of Christ.

We believe, and that so we might be justified by His faith. Our choice to believe Him, to receive Him, we then receive all He Is.

Much love!

Yes the choice to believe in God is ours to make. But the choice to save is God’s to make. Paul said “we believed”, for the reason stated in the passage. But that is because and after God worked in and on each of them, having given them spiritual understanding of the truth, thereby giving them the knowledge of the truth, having touched their hearts that brings them to repentance unto God, fully persuading them of the truth, which is the giving of faith in and on Jesus Christ, that powerfully moved them to freely believe and trust in God. And so they have chosen. They have chosen to believe and have chosen to love God because God had chosen and loved them first.

Tong
R3866

 

[Taken]

<<<What God Offers man man may Freely elect to Take or Reject.>>>

Agree. But

our issue is whether the grace of the salvation of God is an offer or not. Your take is that it is an offer. On the other hand my take is that it is not.

All you need to do is show at least a couple of scriptures that supports your take. On the other hand, that there is no scriptures that speaks that the grace of the salvation of God is an offer supports my take.

So, if you have scriptures to show, do so. Thanks.

Tong
R3860

There is no Scripture I am aware of that Bullit Points Scripture in the fashion you are requesting...TO WHIT;
i.e. requesting a Scripture that says;
Salvation of Gods Grace IS or IS Not an Offering.

Rather it IS "an understanding" of a culmination of Scriptures.

Inanutshell, my view IS:
"IF" a man can TAKE IT or REJECT IT...
IT IS AN "OFFERING".

Adam was OFFERED, the "TREE OF LIFE".
Adam chose to REJECT, that offering.

Gen 2:
[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

All Men are OFFERED, Jesus' Body.
Some men Choose to Accept His OFFERING.
Some men Choose to Reject, His OFFERING.

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world , he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Gods WILL to Prepare Jesus a Body.
Gods WILL to Send that Body into the world.
Gods WiLL to Offer Body to ALL men OF the world.
Gods WILL...that ALL men WHO Agree and WHO Accept Gods OFFERING...
GOD SHALL by HIS WILL, by HIS GRACE, by HIS WORD, by HIS POWER..."GIVES THAT MAN exactly WHAT He OFFERED"...
SALVATION of that mans soul.
QUICKENING of that mans spirit.
His Word of Promised RAISING UP of that mans body in glory.

Heb 10:
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Gods OFFERING...
....IS by, of, through, Gods WILL.
Mans ACCEPTING...
....IS by, of, through the mans WILL.

Them (men) that ARE sanctified...
ARE sanctified ... Expressly Because they Agreed to Accept Gods Offering.

By "logical AND spiritual" "experience and wisdom"....to arrive at a conclusion...

Them (men) that ARE sanctified...
ARE sanctified ... Expressly Because they Agreed to Accept Gods Offering.
Them (men) that ARE NOT sanctified...
ARE NOT sanctified ... Expressly Because they DID NOT Agree to Accept Gods Offering.

Gods WILL TO OFFER, has zero effect, on what any man chooses.
Meaning...Regardless of what men elect TO CHOOSE...has no effect on Gods "Standing Offer."
* Gods OFFER PREVAILS, since the Day God Declared His Offering Of Jesus' BODY... generation after generation of men naturally born, the Offer Applies TO THEM...and ANY man;
Can Agree to Accept Gods OFFERING...
or NOT.

WISDOM...
IF YOU CAN TAKE IT, or REJECT IT...
It's IS an Offering.

I sit at the supper table...the dish of "peas" are "passed" from hand to hand, being "offered" hand to hand...eh, I reject TAKING, and pass the dish along.

Simple conclusion. I was offered. I reject. I do not have or consume peas.

Same conclusion. Men are offered Salvation. They reject. They neither have Salvation or the Lord (WHO IS SALVATION), with or IN them.

Luke 19
[9] And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Read Luke 10:1-8.... SEE WHO was in THAT HOUSE, SEE WHOSE house that was, SEE WHO IS SALVATION.

Men who ARE "sanctified", ARE "sanctified", BECAUSE "SALVATION" IS come TO them and IS IN THEM.
Zacchaeus, by his will scurried to SEE Jesus.
Zacchaeus, of short stature, could not See Jesus coming in a crowd.
Zacchaeus, made an effort, to climb a tree, to see Jesus.
Jesus looked up, saw Zacchaeus, saw his effort.... and
Jesus "invited" Himself to house of Zacchaeus....
Zacchaeus with JOY, scurried home and prepared his house for Jesus to enter.
Jesus...went to Zacchaeus house.

Pay close attention...
WHO Zacchaeus saw enter his house..
Was Jesus.
WHAT entered Zacchaeus' house, Jesus' clearly revealed...SALVATION.

You DO NOT AGREE, "Grace of Gods Salvations" is an Offering.

If it be NOT an OFFERING, then How or Why can a man REJECT TAKING?

And How can a man TAKE, what is not First Offered?....which by default...TAKING that which is NOT OFFERED; is called THEFT.

It becomes a matter...of:
Does God Force Salvation on a man?
Does a man Steal Salvation from God?
Or Does God Offer a man Salvation and man receives Gods Offering, by Agreeing to Take it?
How do you answer these questions?

 

[marks]

Yes the choice to believe in God is ours to make. But the choice to save is God’s to make. Paul said “we believed”, for the reason stated in the passage. But that is because and after God worked in and on each of them, having given them spiritual understanding of the truth, thereby giving them the knowledge of the truth, having touched their hearts that brings them to repentance unto God, fully persuading them of the truth, which is the giving of faith in and on Jesus Christ, that powerfully moved them to freely believe and trust in God. And so they have chosen. They have chosen to believe and have chosen to love God because God had chosen and loved them first.

Tong
R3866

Perhaps this is the one point over which I disagree. I believe God loves all the people He made, and would save them all if only they would.

I think John MacArthur gave the very best Bible study on point I've ever heard! I want to find it again and memorize it. By the time he was done, I felt he had taken in your view and my view both, and represented both fairly and Scripturally, and I knew why he believed what he did, and I was confident he knew why I hold my view. And somehow through it all, he unified us all. It was really good!

Much love!

 

[Taken]

<<<Faith IS required BEFORE a heart is opened.>>>

I disagree. Consider Abram. Consider the people who aren’t of the children of Israel, the gentiles, who were not a worshiper of God.

And what faith are you referring to? Faith that is of man, or faith that comes from and is of God?

Tong
R3861

Hearing the word of God, is exactly what is taught.
God OPENING ones Heart, is a blessing from God...FOR a man HEARING.
The OPENING ones Heart, is not Baptism.
It IS; a blessing, that the man WITH an OPENED Heart, can Believe what the Lords Word IS Saying.

"Consider Abram?"
* Sure. God spoke to Abram.
Abram listened. Abram trusted and DID what God directed him to do.
By understanding, I conclude, God spoke to Abram, God opened Abrams Heart, Abram DID (verified in Scriptural published writing), what God directed Abram TO DO.

"Consider the people who aren’t of the children of Israel, the gentiles, who were not a worshiper of God?"

* Sure I've considered ... why the Division came about. (Rather a lengthy study)...
But in Brief...
Nothing new, What God has Created and Made, God Divides.
Good - Evil
Up - Down
Light - Dark
In - Out
Clothed - Naked
Hebrews - Gentiles
* Of all the Divisions, One is Favored of God, One is not. (Not a secret)

WHY did one become Favored, and one Not?
Simple:
one AGREED to Listen, Follow & Do.
one made no such Agreement.

Follow the History, who agreed, who didn't.
Those who agreed and failed to keep their Agreement, corrected through punishment.

Through "correction" some became forgiven, continued to follow in agreement.
Through "correction", "displacement", "influence" (of men never having followed God)...instead followed other gods, (of the Gentiles)

Gentiles mimicked the Hebrews, in a sense, to have "a god". Gentiles, in their own group around the world "decided" what would be their "god" (and there were many gods of the Gentiles).

Jesus' arrival, was to Offer men, (All men, Jew and Gentile) something they had never had before;
Hidden Truths;
Absolute guarantee;
of forgiveness, of saving of their soul, of quickening of their spirit, of their body being justified to be raised in immortality, of forever Gods Spirit to be WITH and IN them;
IMMEDIATELY.
IF
The Confessed to Believe in the Lord God Almighty.

It is an absolute Option and guarantee for men to CHOOSE, to be WITH and IN God through Christ Forever, Kept By Gods Power
...or NOT.

Did OT Gentiles have the Option to follow the Hebrew God...Sure and some did.
Did OT Hebrews have the Option to follow Gentile gods...Sure and some did.
Do NT and men today have the Option to follow ANY god they Choose? Sure and most do...while some reject following any god.
As Always God has made a provision Before and During the Tribulation for Jews and Gentiles alike to Hear and Follow God through Christ the Lord Jesus.
..Some do, some don't...some will during the Tribulation, some will not.