He is a Jew, He is not a Jew: the physical seed of promise

[robert derrick]

Christ's Church always was about those of Faith, even back in Old Testament times, even back to Abraham. Or have you missed what Paul taught in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 about Abraham's Faith? Maybe the end of John 8 also?

Yet God still chose certain ones to take The Gospel forth and work His Plan. Jesus even showed that His Apostles are promised to sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel! So how does that play out as part of Christ's Church? You obviously don't know yet, but are just pushing the doctrines of men's Preterism.

Uh oh, before it was just 'replacement theology' I needed to be cured of (And I am, because as you imply Israel hasn't been replaced), but now I need cure from 'men's Peterism'? I first thought you saying Peterism.

Ok. So what is "Preterism'?

Until then, there was the church in the wilderness, not called such until Acts 7, as well as Christ was the Rock with them, so I can see with you 'Christ's church' back to the wilderness after Egypt. And Abraham was therefore a church of one with Christ, who's faith would be the seed of God's promise through the old into the new.

That seed of Abraham, which is the seed of promise, is extended to all the seed of Abraham (4:16), which are all children of Abraham by faith (Gal 3:17). Therefore, all the seed of Abraham are of faith of Abraham: all that are grafted into the olive tree of faith, whether for the first time from the uncircumcised Gentiles, or grafted in again from the physical seed that made themselves uncircumcision as Ishmael under bodnage of Hagar. (Gal 4)

And the grafting in is without any respect of physical seed, even as the children of Abraham by faith of Jesus are all counted the one seed of Abraham:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9:8-9)

The physical seed are the children of the flesh with outward circumcision, and they are not the children of God, nor the children of promise, nor counted anymore for the seed of Abraham and of promise. But the seed of faith are the children of promise as was Isaac, even the earthen vessels and branches wherein the seed of God abides, partaking of the root of the tree (Rom 11:17), which is Jesus Christ. (Rev 22:16)

And since Jesus is the root and the offspring of David, then the partakers of Him, partaking of the root of David are the offspring of David. Even as He was the seed of David in the flesh (Rom 1:3), so are we in mortal bodies.

Who is greater? David or Christ? Christ is greater, therefore if we be brethren and children of Christ, then we be seed and offspring of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob who is Israel, and David, all in Christ Jesus, who was the First before they all, and is the Last with us all. (Rev 22:13)

The seed of God is not the seed of promise? But rather a physical seed of man must remain the seed of promise, that has been cast away from the olive tree, by rejecting the Root? And why must they remain such? That interpretations of last days prophecy be maintained as traditionally instructed and sought after by men.

So how does that play out as part of Christ's Church?

Seems confusing: Church of Christ always been by faith back to that of Abraham, and now Apostles sitting on judging tribes of Israel has nothing to do with church of Christ?

But, I would say the 12 apostles have everything to do with the church of Christ.

And in that light, the names of the 12 apostles are written in the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem, and the names of the 12 tribes of Israel are on the gates thereof, which cite is the Lamb's bride, which we are, which city who's builder and maker is God, which we look to dwell in forever, and so: we are the 12 tribes of Israel, even bride of the Lamb, eating at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

 

[robert derrick]

No, Enoch is right. You simply don't know enough of your Bible to know the difference between the true Jew and the false Jew.

Just because the majority of the house of Judah (orthodox Jews) still reject Lord Jesus and are against The Gospel like Apostle Paul said, doesn't mean they all are going to stay that way, which Paul showed this in Romans 11:25-32.

Among the seed of Israel are "tares" (Matthew 13). The 'tares' were sown by the devil, they are his, and they hide among the children of Israel. Jude 1 reveals those crept in unawares were ordained to the condemnation of being against Christ. But even Christ's Salvation is open to them IF... they would turn and believe on Jesus Christ.

So just because the majority of the Jews (i.e., house of Judah, the seed of the tribes of Israel that made up the southern "kingdom of Judah" during Solomon's day), are spiritually blinded by God away from The Gospel, that doesn't mean they are the "tares" of Christ's Matthew 13 parable. Our Lord Jesus' parable there shows the "tares" are to be cast into the lake of fire. But Apostle Paul showed in Romans 11 the unbelieving Jews that believe once God removes their blindness, are all going to be saved per God's promise (that He gave through His OT prophets).

No, Enoch is right. You simply don't know enough of your Bible to know the difference between the true Jew and the false Jew.

My reference to patently having no response is to any that reject the argument out of hand, and simply go on to reestablish traditional thinking.

Which is what you have done also. You must first disprove by Scripture, or better reasoning of the Scriptures I've offered, which are the basis for my argument:
(Rom 2)
1. He is not a Jew that is one outwardly. Which refers to the physical seed of outward circumcision.
Is there a Jew that is one outwardly?

2. He is a Jew that is one inwardly. Which refers to the Gentiles that are by nature uncircumcision.
Is there one circumcised inwardly that is not a Jew?

(Gal 4)
1. The physical seed that rejected Christ have become the children of the flesh that are the children of Abraham and Hagar in bondage, as Ishmael was, and no more of Sarah, as Isaac was.
Are there any physical seed of unbelief and children of flesh that remain seed of Abraham and Sarah as was Isaac?

2. The brethren of the Lord Jesus, as Isaac was, are now the children of promise by Abraham and Sarah.
Are there any brethren in Christ that are not the children of promise by Abraham and Sarah, as was Isaac?

And now I can add one more I have learned by responding to the challenges: (which I said from the beginning I would appreciate)

4. All grafted into the natural olive tree of God are thus brought into Israel: both the uncircumcised Gentiles coming in, with the former branches broken off, and the outwardly circumcised returning to be grafted in again.
Is the natural olive tree, from which the natural branches of circumcision were broken off, not Israel?

the true Jew and the false Jew.

And when was such a distinction ever made by Scripture? In the old covenant? No, because they were Jews by outward circumcision by law. It was not possible to be a 'false' Jew. Either circumcised in flesh or not. Hypocrites? Persecutors of their own? Certainly. But 'true' Jews of the seed and circumcision.

The distinction you are making, which is not accurate, but only came in the new testament in Rom 2: He is not a 'true' Jew that is circumcised outwardly. But Scripture doesn't even say 'true vs false', which is your wording, not God's. God says 'is a Jew vs is not a Jew'.

There are therefore no false Jews, only them that say they are Jews by outward circumcision and are not, and Jesus calls them liars. (Rev 2:9, 3:9)
Are any uncircumcised of heart who say they are Jews and are not lying?

You simply don't know enough of your Bible to know the difference between the true Jew and the false Jew.

It is Scripture that I read and know exactly as it is written, it is you who do not yet know how to rightly divide between what is written, and what is not, but you want to think is written your way.


And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. (1 Cor 8)

doesn't mean they all are going to stay that way, which Paul showed this in Romans 11:25-32.

Which is true, and I've never said otherwise. There was someone else trying to say that. Maybe you read from them thinking it was me. And I've never said anything about the tares of the devil. Which I suppose could be all the fowls of the air hiding in the shadows of the branches of the tree, who profess godliness but deny Him in works.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

When it comes to the so called Jews ? who is one !
Ok look back 2000 years ago and what do we have now ? Ok lets say that all were blood related 2000 years ago ? of the seed, and just forget about the ones who are not. now who is it that is 100% blood related now in 2021 ? No one is at all ! so bingo that all falls down to nothing, worthless nonsense.
Then lets look at them who are part blood line, well so what, as it all becomes nonsense.
Then lets look at the ones who practise the OT ? well well well non do apart from some, just like it is with people who claim to be Christian and their is no denomination in Christ as all denominations are a business adventure first and foremost in fact truth be.

At the end of the day all that matters is, Are you born again of the Holy Spirit ! regardless of the second coming and fact is after the second coming it's the same deal in fact, all will be born again because all the deceptions will be burnt up and all people are going to be on the bones of their arse, flat out trying to survive will be the main concern, so BS and tempting people with BS nonsense will not be on the table. It will be all about survival and calling out to God for all you are worth.

No one is going to be raptured out as some claim and the Jews never could save themselves anyway, the only thing worthy of the Jews was when they were with God, they needed God to progress and every time that they turned their backs to God they failed.
Just like Christianity is failing now because such people do not truly know that Jesus is the King of Israel in fact.
They are not abiding in him the Vine ? and people who look to the State that Satanist call or claim is Israel is a deception ! Such people are not truly born again, or if they were then they would be able to see through the folly of it all.
Such people are outright rejecting Jesus Christ in fact.

I have talked to them and they are looking for another Jesus in fact ! because the true real Jesus Christ is just not good enough for them ? so they seek another ! not to mention such fools look forward to the times of Hellfire total morons !
They will not be raptured away at all they will reap what they have sown.
They bastardise the so called rapture with foolish perceptions of such.

Seek you the Kingdom of God ? that's what you are called to do.
It does not say seek you the Rapture ? that's insane and of one who is at a lose (lacking) for they are not truly born again, for if they were truly born again then they would be in the Kingdom of God and on the right path, not lost looking for salvation, because one who is truly born again is Saved and is on the path of God and not of Mans works.

The Satanist say look at the Jews see look their back and the State and all and I say, well Mans works do not cut it for me, for I am not of this world, so their concepts that I know are delusions for they are clearly not of Gods working.

When the second coming comes I will not be changed because I have already been Changed born again, it's only that them all of this world who live through it will become born again. but I did not have to go through the Hellfire as I and others were Saved before hand and was in the kingdom of God before hand and They will be in the Kingdom of God after the Second coming. If I die before the second coming it does not matter as I am going to Heaven. I am not fearful of my life, if something has to be done I just get on with doing.

 

[robert derrick]

When it comes to the so called Jews ? who is one !
Ok look back 2000 years ago and what do we have now ? Ok lets say that all were blood related 2000 years ago ? of the seed, and just forget about the ones who are not. now who is it that is 100% blood related now in 2021 ? No one is at all ! so bingo that all falls down to nothing, worthless nonsense.
Then lets look at them who are part blood line, well so what, as it all becomes nonsense.
Then lets look at the ones who practise the OT ? well well well non do apart from some, just like it is with people who claim to be Christian and their is no denomination in Christ as all denominations are a business adventure first and foremost in fact truth be.

At the end of the day all that matters is, Are you born again of the Holy Spirit ! regardless of the second coming and fact is after the second coming it's the same deal in fact, all will be born again because all the deceptions will be burnt up and all people are going to be on the bones of their arse, flat out trying to survive will be the main concern, so BS and tempting people with BS nonsense will not be on the table. It will be all about survival and calling out to God for all you are worth.

No one is going to be raptured out as some claim and the Jews never could save themselves anyway, the only thing worthy of the Jews was when they were with God, they needed God to progress and every time that they turned their backs to God they failed.
Just like Christianity is failing now because such people do not truly know that Jesus is the King of Israel in fact.
They are not abiding in him the Vine ? and people who look to the State that Satanist call or claim is Israel is a deception ! Such people are not truly born again, or if they were then they would be able to see through the folly of it all.
Such people are outright rejecting Jesus Christ in fact.

I have talked to them and they are looking for another Jesus in fact ! because the true real Jesus Christ is just not good enough for them ? so they seek another ! not to mention such fools look forward to the times of Hellfire total morons !
They will not be raptured away at all they will reap what they have sown.
They bastardise the so called rapture with foolish perceptions of such.

Seek you the Kingdom of God ? that's what you are called to do.
It does not say seek you the Rapture ? that's insane and of one who is at a lose (lacking) for they are not truly born again, for if they were truly born again then they would be in the Kingdom of God and on the right path, not lost looking for salvation, because one who is truly born again is Saved and is on the path of God and not of Mans works.

The Satanist say look at the Jews see look their back and the State and all and I say, well Mans works do not cut it for me, for I am not of this world, so their concepts that I know are delusions for they are clearly not of Gods working.

When the second coming comes I will not be changed because I have already been Changed born again, it's only that them all of this world who live through it will become born again. but I did not have to go through the Hellfire as I and others were Saved before hand and was in the kingdom of God before hand and They will be in the Kingdom of God after the Second coming. If I die before the second coming it does not matter as I am going to Heaven. I am not fearful of my life, if something has to be done I just get on with doing.

Whew. Just get it all out there and keep nothing back.

While I agree with your 'humanist' logic on why there is no more physical seed of promise for God to return to, I don't agree with the everyone will be saved as by fire. That's works of ministry, not evil works of unbelief. (Unless of course our ministering is so corrupt, that it causes others to transgress God by it, which means we have crossed the line of simple error to that of actually defiling God's temple, and so we will be destroyed for causing others to destroy themselves. It's the same as Balaam who showed how to get the children of Israel to draw God's wrath by polluting themselves with strange women)

We are not of this world is good: Neither is God, and neither is His covenant, nor His name for His people and seed of faith: Israel.

That is where Scripture makes a distinct difference between them that are of Israel after the the flesh and outward circumcision, but are not Israel with God. Only them that are of Israel after the Spirit in circumcision of the heart are israel with God.

That does not make a physical vs spiritual Israel: what it makes is physical is no Israel at all, and no Jew at all, and the Israel with God is not just 'spiritual', even as Jesus came in the flesh, and was not just 'spirit, but rather Israel is now only by seed of God in natural bodies by faith of Jesus, which is the seed of God.

also you are right: nothing matters but being washed in the blood and seeking after signs of His return is of the flesh. And these 'disputes' are mostly intellectually desired, as well as interpretation of Revelation.

However, even in such areas there is profit and benefit in life, afterall much of how we conduct ourselves is based on how we are called, including the name of our calling. Likewise, they are blessed that read and understand the words of prophesy (Rev 1), and so it is not all just esoteric intellectualism.

 

[robert derrick]

We are not of this world, even as God is not, nor His covenant with man after the flesh, nor the name He has made for His people.

Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness. For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel... (Is 48:1-2)

Hear is Scriptural prophesy of them that call themselves by a name and make mention of a God and of a holy city, but not in truth. It is not true with God. Even though men of the world say so, it is not so with God:

And so the physical seed after the flesh are not the children of God nor the children of Abraham, though they say so (as well as others who like to do so for sake of personal interpretation of prophesy.)

At this time, they who say they are Israel are not all Israel, because they who make mention of the God of Israel are not of the God of Israel.

He is the God of Israel. He is the God of the saints in Christ. The saints of Christ are the Israel of God, who is God of His saints: the God of Israel.

Is He yet the God of Israel after the flesh? And yet they are not the children of God after the flesh. (Rom 9:8) Or is He no longer the God of Israel?

The saints are the children of God and the children of Abraham by faith, and in them is His seed of promise called, even as was Isaac. And yet, they are not the seed of promise of God to Abraham? And they of the flesh remain the only children and seed of Abraham, though they be counted by God as that of bondage with Hagar.

The children of faith are the children of Abraham, and yet the children of Abraham may not be called (as men say, not God) the children of Jacob nor of Israel, who came by their father Abraham? So these children of Abraham so called by God, as well as the seed of promise as was Isaac, are not ever to be called the children of Israel (because men say so)?

Then who are these children of Abraham and of promise pertaining to Jacob, who was called Israel by God as a Prince having power with God? At least brethren by the seed of Abraham and Sarah (Not by Hagar as was Ishmael). And so, there must be two seeds of Abraham with promise, one called by God through faith and born of His Spirit in Christ Jesus, and the other called by man in unbelief and born of flesh by prophetic interpretation, only.

I don't believe anyone cares one bit about the physical seed. It's all about prophesy and our cherished interpretation thereof. I know I don't care about physical seed, even as God doesn't. It's all about getting rid of what we cherish, when Scripture does not confirm it, but even rejects it.

 

[robert derrick]

Replacement Theology has a long history beginning with the Catholic Church. And there are still many lurking around trying to replace Israel with the Church. But as you have pointed out in Romans 11 and other passages, God is NOT done with Israel, and Paul tells Gentile believers not to be high-minded when thinking about the temporary spiritual blindness of Jews and Israel.

No. Gentile believers will never be a part of the 12 tribes of Israel. But God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church (Jews and Gentiles in one Body) and also an eternal plan and purpose for redeemed and restored Israel (the twelve tribes).

And there are still many lurking around trying to replace Israel with the Church.
No one here is lurking. It is all in the open, and it is not replacement theology:

Israel is not replaced by God. The children of Israel are changed from that of flesh to those of faith in natural bodies.

The God of Israel is the God of the faithful in Christ Jesus, which are therefore all the Israel of God.

Else, those of Israel of God are those of unbelieving flesh, and those of God by faith are not of the Israel of God.

The carnal mind of prophesy still uses names made by God, in which God no longer uses them:

Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. (Gen 32)

They who call themselves Israel, were called by the name of Israel, but no more, and they continue to make mention of His name without God:

Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness. For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel... (Is 48:1-2)

God is not done with His Israel, but He has cast away them of fleshy seed of unbelieve out His Israel.

He is still grafting in daily to His natural olive tree, which is Israel, them that believe, including grafting in again them that were cast out, because they are still beloved for the fathers' sake.

But as you have pointed out in Romans 11 and other passages:

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Graffed in again to what? The natural olive tree of God. From which they were cast away. is that tree not Israel?

Now, if the God of Israel that is now the God of them that believe in His Son, then they be Israel. And if the olive tree of God is Israel, then they grafted in by faith are in Israel, else they grafted in again are not in Israel either.

The gentiles are still come in to the olive tree: Israel. Else what are they com in to? And what are they graffed in again to?

But if the olive tree grafted into is not Israel, then the branches broken off and cast away therefrom were not in Israel either.

So, either all that believe are in Israel by grafting of faith, or none that believe, and none that were cast out were ever in Israel: all that believe are in israel, or none are in Israel at all: If the olive tree is not Israel.

No. Gentile believers will never be a part of the 12 tribes of Israel.

So you declare, else your interpretation of Scripture is false. And God certainly can't allow that, I'm sure.

 

[Davy]

When Apostle Paul said their blindness God put upon them is until the 'fullness of the Gentiles' is done, that means they stay blinded away from The Gospel all the way up to Christ's future return

It appears to you that I am adding to God's Word, based upon your misreading of His Word:

1....that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Scripture does not say they all shall stay blind until Christ's return.

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Well, yes the Scripture does... reveal blinded Israel in part will be like that until the "fullness of the Gentiles be come in"...

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
KJV

But the Romans 11:23 verse you tried to use, "And they also, if they abide not in unbelief, ...", does NOT have a time qualifier in it like the 25th verse does. The difference is that Paul is pointing out that the 'majority' of unbelieving Jews (his brethren), will remain in blindness until the "fullness of the Gentiles be come in." That is how... we are to understand Paul there.

Therefore, this means we CANNOT make claims that only Jews that turn to Jesus during this present world are the only... ones of them that will be saved. It's pretty much usurping Christ's Authority by any of us condemning anyone to the lake of fire, for that is not for us to determine. We know some will remain in unbelief to condemnation, but it's not for us to say who that will be. The only ones God's Word tells us that are already judged and sentenced to perish is Satan and his angels. No flesh born man has been judged to perish yet today. And that is part of Paul's lesson there, for he warned us about being in conceit as to our Faith in The Gospel contrary to the unbelievers of Judah.

 

[Davy]

Uh oh, before it was just 'replacement theology' I needed to be cured of (And I am, because as you imply Israel hasn't been replaced), but now I need cure from 'men's Peterism'? I first thought you saying Peterism.

Ok. So what is "Preterism'?

Preterism (partial form), treats the majority of Bible prophecy as already fulfilled at Christ's 1st coming. Those type churches usually teach very little endtime Bible prophecy, and practically nothing about the coming "great tribulation". Instead, some of them believe Christ's Kingdom is already established here on earth today, at His 1st coming, and that it is a 'progressive' fulfillment, until sometime in the future it is whole, and then Jesus will return. Full Preterism goes another level deeper, and regards Christ's appearance after His resurrection to His disciples as His 2nd coming, so today there need not be any literal, physical return of Jesus Christ. With these, it's a 'Kingdom Now' idea also, that is progressing here on earth in this world. Those ideas from men are actually designed to support the coming one-world beast kingdom by the Antichrist at the very end of this present world.

As for men's doctrine of Replacement Theology, that is just man's doctrine. The New Testament Church did not replace God's Church. The New Covenant through Christ's Blood replaced the Old Covenant to Israel, which was actually by design from the foundation of the world, and involves God's original promises to Israel, and was to include the believing Gentiles (Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 2:11-22; 1 Peter 1:18-20; Revelation 13:8; Isaiah 42:6; Isaiah 49:6; Isaiah 49:22; Isaiah 54:3; Isaiah 60:3-5; Isaiah 60:11; Isaiah 62:2; Isaiah 66:19-24; etc.).

God through His Old Testament prophets had much to say about His Salvation going to the Gentile nations also, which the Isaiah Scripture above shows. But God also affirmed that the nation of Israel and the seed of Israel will always exist before Him...

Jer 31:35-36
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, Which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
KJV

That pretty much means Israel as a nation forever, so how does that fit in with the New Covenant, because it's not really about your seminary doctrines of men arguments of when the Church began? The real event God's Word reveals from the time of Abraham all the way down to Apostle Paul is God's Promise by Faith, which is about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In Galatians 3, Apostle Paul explains that all those of Faith have become the "children of Abraham". The reason is because that is... the SAME FAITH which Abraham believed, and God counted Abraham's faith as righteousness. And God gave that Promise by Faith 430 years prior to the law. It was also given prior to the token of circumcision. So in reality, God's Promises to Abraham, of which the main Promise was The Gospel, all that was included in God's Birthright that was inherited by Abraham's son Isaac, and then to Isaac's son Jacob, and then to Jacob's son Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where the majority of those Promises still are manifest among that seed today, in the Christian nations.

Abraham knew about Christ's day, i.e. The Gospel, Christ's Mission of His 1st coming and future Kingdom.

John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
KJV

The unbelieving Jews mocked Him for saying Abraham knew The Gospel, and when Jesus revealed Himself as The "I AM", one of GOD's sacred names, the Jews tried to stone Him. So right there, Lord Jesus revealed The Gospel was know about even back to the days of Abraham. But of course the unbelieving Jews still deny that, since they still deny Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

 

[Davy]

You must first disprove by Scripture, or better reasoning of the Scriptures I've offered, which are the basis for my argument:
(Rom 2)
1. He is not a Jew that is one outwardly. Which refers to the physical seed of outward circumcision.
Is there a Jew that is one outwardly?

No, YOU must prove what you said by 'real' Bible study to know the difference between the "synagogue of Satan" which only claim... to be Jews, in contrast to true bloodline Jews which are still simply blinded by God, as according to Apostle Paul in Romans 11. Anyone who has studied God's Promises to Abraham about the Promise by Faith well knows The Gospel Promise was offered PRIOR to the law or flesh circumcision (Galatians 3 and Romans 4 again! Go read it!). So that automatically quells any attempted argument about flesh circumcision and The Gospel.

2. He is a Jew that is one inwardly. Which refers to the Gentiles that are by nature uncircumcision.
Is there one circumcised inwardly that is not a Jew?

(Gal 4)
1. The physical seed that rejected Christ have become the children of the flesh that are the children of Abraham and Hagar in bondage, as Ishmael was, and no more of Sarah, as Isaac was.
Are there any physical seed of unbelief and children of flesh that remain seed of Abraham and Sarah as was Isaac?

Wrong, big time. You obviously don't know your Bible history. Like to stay only in The New Testament do you?? No wonder you have missed God's Promise to Jacob and his seed becoming "a company of nations", and "a multitude of nations" (Genesis 37; Genesis 48). Probably the majority of believers that started up the western Christian nations, and made up Christ's early Church, were descendants from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Gen 35:10-12
10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and He called his name Israel.

11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.
KJV

I'd like to see you try and explain that "company of nations" prophecy about Jacob's 'seed'. The nation of Israel has only ever been but one nation. Because God gave Jacob the new name Israel, those "company of nations" point to being Israelite nations. Don't try and spiritualize those "company of nations" either, because it says those nations would come of Jacob's SEED. That means literally. So where are they? Who are they?

2. The brethren of the Lord Jesus, as Isaac was, are now the children of promise by Abraham and Sarah.
Are there any brethren in Christ that are not the children of promise by Abraham and Sarah, as was Isaac?

Of course ALL believers of The Gospel of Jesus Christ have become the spiritual seed of Abraham, because of The Promise by Faith, which is The Gospel. That was my earlier point from Galatians 3 and John 8. Isaac was a child in the Promise; he inherited the promises from his father Abraham by Birthright, which included The Gospel. Same thing with Jacob, Joseph, Ephraim & Manasseh (1 Chronicles 5).

And now I can add one more I have learned by responding to the challenges: (which I said from the beginning I would appreciate)

4. All grafted into the natural olive tree of God are thus brought into Israel: both the uncircumcised Gentiles coming in, with the former branches broken off, and the outwardly circumcised returning to be grafted in again.
Is the natural olive tree, from which the natural branches of circumcision were broken off, not Israel?

What did Apostle Paul call the group in Ephesians 2 using the name 'Israel', when he said to Gentile believers on Jesus Christ how they had come nigh to the promises and covenants God gave to Israel? Paul called the association in Christ they had come into as "the commonwealth of Israel".

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
KJV

Paul by showing believing Gentiles "are made nigh" to those covenants of promise to Israel have been graffed into them. Same with believing Israelites, as both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles make up Christ's Church. For God's Salvation purposes, there is NO DIFFERENCE between the believing Israelite and believing Gentile. Both are one in Christ Jesus. However... God's Promises to Israel DO NOT GET SCRAPPED BY THAT! Believing Gentiles inherit those Promises WITH the believing seed of Israel. This point is where you leave Bible Scripture (remember all those Isaiah Scriptures I quoted in a previous post about saved Israel inheriting the Gentiles?)

 

[Davy]

the true Jew and the false Jew.

And when was such a distinction ever made by Scripture? In the old covenant? No, because they were Jews by outward circumcision by law. It was not possible to be a 'false' Jew. Either circumcised in flesh or not. Hypocrites? Persecutors of their own? Certainly. But 'true' Jews of the seed and circumcision.

The distinction you are making, which is not accurate, but only came in the new testament in Rom 2: He is not a 'true' Jew that is circumcised outwardly. But Scripture doesn't even say 'true vs false', which is your wording, not God's. God says 'is a Jew vs is not a Jew'.

The distinction I am making keeps to God's Holy Writ, but not just The New Testament, but also The Old Testament Books. When Lord Jesus described the "synagogue of Satan" who only 'claim' to be Jews but are not, that clearly isn't about the blinded Israel in part which Paul was describing in Romans 11. How do we know? Because Paul showed in Romans 11:25 forward that those Jews God blinded away from The Gospel are going to be saved...

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

You're just too busy heeding men's silly seminary doctrines to actually understand what Apostle Paul said there. Verse 29 is especially important, because it's about God's election, i.e., those of Israel that He 'chose'. That means OWNERSHIP by Him if you're not aware. He already owns them. So what if He chose to 'blind' some of His chosen away from The Gospel until... the fullness of the Gentiles is done? Who are we to say different, that those He chose but blinded, that He won't in final remove their blindness (when Jesus returns), and then they will believe? Who are we to say that cannot be? Why would Apostle Paul say that 26-27 Scripture if he didn't really believe it? It's apparent you don't really understand God's working of election per His Word.

There are therefore no false Jews, only them that say they are Jews by outward circumcision and are not, and Jesus calls them liars. (Rev 2:9, 3:9)
Are any uncircumcised of heart who say they are Jews and are not lying?

Sorry brother, but you are starting to sound like you're reaching, because your Biblical illiteracy is showing. There is... such as thing as those who 'say' they are Jews, but lie and are not. That is about Christ's enemies that began creeping in among Israel long ago. God warned the children of Israel about it, but they didn't listen.

Judg 2:1-3
2 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, "I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you.
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed My voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
KJV

The following time is for after... Christ's future return. It is the Millennium timing, and there will be a temple sanctuary established in the holy land then (Ezekiel 40-47). The 16th verse establishes the timing right after the battle of Armageddon at Christ's return, with those nations that come up against Jerusalem on the final day of this present world. Not all of those are destroyed, as these are left, and will be made to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zech 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

Zech 14:20-21
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

In that future Millennial time, there won't be any more Canaanites in the House of God (yes, the "house" that Jesus mentioned in John 14). Well HOW.. did those Canaanites get into the House of God in the first place? THAT... is much of the Bible history you are MISSING. Don't look to the seminaries, they definitely aren't going to show you that. What they want you on is only the 'milk' of God's Word, not the 'strong meat'.

 

[robert derrick]

The distinction I am making keeps to God's Holy Writ, but not just The New Testament, but also The Old Testament Books. When Lord Jesus described the "synagogue of Satan" who only 'claim' to be Jews but are not, that clearly isn't about the blinded Israel in part which Paul was describing in Romans 11. How do we know? Because Paul showed in Romans 11:25 forward that those Jews God blinded away from The Gospel are going to be saved...

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

You're just too busy heeding men's silly seminary doctrines to actually understand what Apostle Paul said there. Verse 29 is especially important, because it's about God's election, i.e., those of Israel that He 'chose'. That means OWNERSHIP by Him if you're not aware. He already owns them. So what if He chose to 'blind' some of His chosen away from The Gospel until... the fullness of the Gentiles is done? Who are we to say different, that those He chose but blinded, that He won't in final remove their blindness (when Jesus returns), and then they will believe? Who are we to say that cannot be? Why would Apostle Paul say that 26-27 Scripture if he didn't really believe it? It's apparent you don't really understand God's working of election per His Word.



Sorry brother, but you are starting to sound like you're reaching, because your Biblical illiteracy is showing. There is... such as thing as those who 'say' they are Jews, but lie and are not. That is about Christ's enemies that began creeping in among Israel long ago. God warned the children of Israel about it, but they didn't listen.

Judg 2:1-3
2 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, "I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you.
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed My voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
KJV

The following time is for after... Christ's future return. It is the Millennium timing, and there will be a temple sanctuary established in the holy land then (Ezekiel 40-47). The 16th verse establishes the timing right after the battle of Armageddon at Christ's return, with those nations that come up against Jerusalem on the final day of this present world. Not all of those are destroyed, as these are left, and will be made to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zech 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

Zech 14:20-21
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

In that future Millennial time, there won't be any more Canaanites in the House of God (yes, the "house" that Jesus mentioned in John 14). Well HOW.. did those Canaanites get into the House of God in the first place? THAT... is much of the Bible history you are MISSING. Don't look to the seminaries, they definitely aren't going to show you that. What they want you on is only the 'milk' of God's Word, not the 'strong meat'.

As I've said before I appreciate the challenges, because if accurate then I am corrected, and otherwise I am forced to be more distinct and dig deeper to refute, which has been the case so far. I started with three simple proofs as basis for the theory, and now I have at least 4, and the list may grow more. So thanks again.

You're just too busy heeding men's silly seminary doctrines to actually understand what Apostle Paul said there

You need to leave behind the schoolboy in-house sparring. I am not a teacher nor a student of such places. I have never heard nor read what I am offering. I was only schooled as you in man's tradition of prophesy. These Scriptures compelled me to step back and take another look.

And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

When Lord Jesus described the "synagogue of Satan" who only 'claim' to be Jews but are not, that clearly isn't about the blinded Israel in part which Paul was describing in Romans 11.

You are the first one to try and take this basic point on: There is he that says he is a Jew and is not, and the Lord calls him a liar, but is of the synagogue of Satan.

Firstly, if we are to refute this, we must first refute the first step to this, which is he is not a Jew, and he is a Jew:

Is there a Jew that is one outwardly circumcised, and there is one inwardly circumcised that is not a Jew? in the sight of God.

We are not talking about in the sight of man nor according to will of man, that still yet believes in a flesh of man special to God. We can all agree there is a strong and long-lasting tradition of last days prophecies of men that very much need a promised seed of flesh to remain on earth, lest their tradition be undermined. And so a reasonable bias is heavy to keep it so.

If we don't first refute the latter: he is a Jew, He is not a Jew, then the former makes perfect since that any who say he is a Jew today outwardly only, he is not a Jew, and the Lord goes on to call any such a liar. And since none have refuted the latter, then this conclusion stands firm. (So far)

 

[robert derrick]

The distinction I am making keeps to God's Holy Writ, but not just The New Testament, but also The Old Testament Books. When Lord Jesus described the "synagogue of Satan" who only 'claim' to be Jews but are not, that clearly isn't about the blinded Israel in part which Paul was describing in Romans 11. How do we know? Because Paul showed in Romans 11:25 forward that those Jews God blinded away from The Gospel are going to be saved...

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

You're just too busy heeding men's silly seminary doctrines to actually understand what Apostle Paul said there. Verse 29 is especially important, because it's about God's election, i.e., those of Israel that He 'chose'. That means OWNERSHIP by Him if you're not aware. He already owns them. So what if He chose to 'blind' some of His chosen away from The Gospel until... the fullness of the Gentiles is done? Who are we to say different, that those He chose but blinded, that He won't in final remove their blindness (when Jesus returns), and then they will believe? Who are we to say that cannot be? Why would Apostle Paul say that 26-27 Scripture if he didn't really believe it? It's apparent you don't really understand God's working of election per His Word.



Sorry brother, but you are starting to sound like you're reaching, because your Biblical illiteracy is showing. There is... such as thing as those who 'say' they are Jews, but lie and are not. That is about Christ's enemies that began creeping in among Israel long ago. God warned the children of Israel about it, but they didn't listen.

Judg 2:1-3
2 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, "I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you.
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed My voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
KJV

The following time is for after... Christ's future return. It is the Millennium timing, and there will be a temple sanctuary established in the holy land then (Ezekiel 40-47). The 16th verse establishes the timing right after the battle of Armageddon at Christ's return, with those nations that come up against Jerusalem on the final day of this present world. Not all of those are destroyed, as these are left, and will be made to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zech 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

Zech 14:20-21
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

In that future Millennial time, there won't be any more Canaanites in the House of God (yes, the "house" that Jesus mentioned in John 14). Well HOW.. did those Canaanites get into the House of God in the first place? THAT... is much of the Bible history you are MISSING. Don't look to the seminaries, they definitely aren't going to show you that. What they want you on is only the 'milk' of God's Word, not the 'strong meat'.

that clearly isn't about the blinded Israel in part which Paul was describing in Romans 11. How do we know? Because Paul showed in Romans 11:25 forward that those Jews God blinded away from The Gospel are going to be saved...

There is a synagogue of Satan with those who are not Jews, but are on claiming to be Jews, while there is a synagogue of Jews in sight of God justified as such?

I.e. a synagogue of Satan outwardly circumcised only vs a synagogue of Christ by inward circumcision?

Ok. I can see the distinction. A fair point. However, since no Scripture refers to any such 'synagogue of Christ', then we can conclude that places are in name only, according to tradition of men: they are culturally named. They do not pertain to any place of worship of old seed of flesh, that still read Moses only.

So, there can be such places, which is no problem, since all sorts of names are given to distinguish one gathering of Christian from another.

But none of this refutes anything I have said pertaining to a promised seed of the flesh: all such have been concluded under sin and unbelief, and none of them are Jews in sight of God, and all their synagogues are of Satan, not of God (as are all mosques).

 

[robert derrick]

The distinction I am making keeps to God's Holy Writ, but not just The New Testament, but also The Old Testament Books. When Lord Jesus described the "synagogue of Satan" who only 'claim' to be Jews but are not, that clearly isn't about the blinded Israel in part which Paul was describing in Romans 11. How do we know? Because Paul showed in Romans 11:25 forward that those Jews God blinded away from The Gospel are going to be saved...

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

You're just too busy heeding men's silly seminary doctrines to actually understand what Apostle Paul said there. Verse 29 is especially important, because it's about God's election, i.e., those of Israel that He 'chose'. That means OWNERSHIP by Him if you're not aware. He already owns them. So what if He chose to 'blind' some of His chosen away from The Gospel until... the fullness of the Gentiles is done? Who are we to say different, that those He chose but blinded, that He won't in final remove their blindness (when Jesus returns), and then they will believe? Who are we to say that cannot be? Why would Apostle Paul say that 26-27 Scripture if he didn't really believe it? It's apparent you don't really understand God's working of election per His Word.



Sorry brother, but you are starting to sound like you're reaching, because your Biblical illiteracy is showing. There is... such as thing as those who 'say' they are Jews, but lie and are not. That is about Christ's enemies that began creeping in among Israel long ago. God warned the children of Israel about it, but they didn't listen.

Judg 2:1-3
2 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, "I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you.
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed My voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
KJV

The following time is for after... Christ's future return. It is the Millennium timing, and there will be a temple sanctuary established in the holy land then (Ezekiel 40-47). The 16th verse establishes the timing right after the battle of Armageddon at Christ's return, with those nations that come up against Jerusalem on the final day of this present world. Not all of those are destroyed, as these are left, and will be made to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zech 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

Zech 14:20-21
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

In that future Millennial time, there won't be any more Canaanites in the House of God (yes, the "house" that Jesus mentioned in John 14). Well HOW.. did those Canaanites get into the House of God in the first place? THAT... is much of the Bible history you are MISSING. Don't look to the seminaries, they definitely aren't going to show you that. What they want you on is only the 'milk' of God's Word, not the 'strong meat'.

Paul showed in Romans 11:25 forward that those Jews God blinded away from The Gospel are going to be saved...

You replace the 'if' with 'are': And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in

No physical seed are all going to be saved, but only they who repent and believe Jesus.

You change Scripture no doubt to confirm a believe that all Israel shall be saved, pertains to a seed of flesh by Abraham, that shall all be saved.

Which is of course impossible for all they in history, since many have perished in unbelief. And so it would have to be at the end where all that are left will be saved. The only problem with a last hour exclusive call to such carnal seed, is that in that last hour the angel in mid-heaven will be preaching the gospel of Christ to all inhabitors on the earth (Rev 14:6), not just an exclusive seed of flesh distinct from the rest, which no longer exists.

Perhaps at this point you might try Galatians 4, where Scripture is saying the old promised seed born of flesh are now concluded by unbelief to be that of Abraham and Hagar, not as that of Isaac, which now pertains only to the promised seed of faith of Abraham. ()

The prophecy of that old seed made for themselves has come to pass: God miserably destroyed them from off the face of the earth. He has in a sorts 'translated' them into that of Hagar, to be the fellow persecuting brethren of Ishmael, that they purposely and wilfully made themselves:

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now...so then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. (4:29, 31)

All the world has been turned upside down (Acts 17:6), so that they who were promised to be a circumcised peculiar treasure above all people on earth (Ex 19:5-6), now have made themselves an uncircumcised people beneath all that is God (Rom 2:25), while they that were uncircumcision by nature beneath the things of God, are now the circumcised of God in Christ Jesus raised up to sit in heavenly places above all that are uncircumcised away from God.

...and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down...The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down... These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also...

They that were blind now see, and them that saw are made blind, and the wild forest has become a fruitful field, and the fruitful field has become the wild forest (Isiah 29): Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

The old clay have said the Lord made me not, and said He has no understanding, and so crucified Him for blasphemy, and so circumcision by nature made themselves uncircumcision with God by unbelief, and the uncircumcision by nature are become by faith circumcision of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[robert derrick]

No, YOU must prove what you said by 'real' Bible study to know the difference between the "synagogue of Satan" which only claim... to be Jews, in contrast to true bloodline Jews which are still simply blinded by God, as according to Apostle Paul in Romans 11. Anyone who has studied God's Promises to Abraham about the Promise by Faith well knows The Gospel Promise was offered PRIOR to the law or flesh circumcision (Galatians 3 and Romans 4 again! Go read it!). So that automatically quells any attempted argument about flesh circumcision and The Gospel.



Wrong, big time. You obviously don't know your Bible history. Like to stay only in The New Testament do you?? No wonder you have missed God's Promise to Jacob and his seed becoming "a company of nations", and "a multitude of nations" (Genesis 37; Genesis 48). Probably the majority of believers that started up the western Christian nations, and made up Christ's early Church, were descendants from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Gen 35:10-12
10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and He called his name Israel.

11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.
KJV

I'd like to see you try and explain that "company of nations" prophecy about Jacob's 'seed'. The nation of Israel has only ever been but one nation. Because God gave Jacob the new name Israel, those "company of nations" point to being Israelite nations. Don't try and spiritualize those "company of nations" either, because it says those nations would come of Jacob's SEED. That means literally. So where are they? Who are they?




Of course ALL believers of The Gospel of Jesus Christ have become the spiritual seed of Abraham, because of The Promise by Faith, which is The Gospel. That was my earlier point from Galatians 3 and John 8. Isaac was a child in the Promise; he inherited the promises from his father Abraham by Birthright, which included The Gospel. Same thing with Jacob, Joseph, Ephraim & Manasseh (1 Chronicles 5).



What did Apostle Paul call the group in Ephesians 2 using the name 'Israel', when he said to Gentile believers on Jesus Christ how they had come nigh to the promises and covenants God gave to Israel? Paul called the association in Christ they had come into as "the commonwealth of Israel".

Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
KJV

Paul by showing believing Gentiles "are made nigh" to those covenants of promise to Israel have been graffed into them. Same with believing Israelites, as both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles make up Christ's Church. For God's Salvation purposes, there is NO DIFFERENCE between the believing Israelite and believing Gentile. Both are one in Christ Jesus. However... God's Promises to Israel DO NOT GET SCRAPPED BY THAT! Believing Gentiles inherit those Promises WITH the believing seed of Israel. This point is where you leave Bible Scripture (remember all those Isaiah Scriptures I quoted in a previous post about saved Israel inheriting the Gentiles?)

know the difference between the "synagogue of Satan" which only claim... to be Jews, in contrast to true bloodline Jews which are still simply blinded by God

There are people trying to claim they are Jews, as though by bloodline to Abraham, and they are not? As in Samarians claiming to be part of Jewry?

So that the Lord is actually hashing out an argument about fleshy blood birth of unbelievers, before His believers? He is actually engaging Himself in the church in the vain and endless arguments of genealogy? and 'true bloodline'? He is making Himself a referee between unbelieving 'Samaritans and Jews'?

Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. (I tim 1)

And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you? (Luke 12)

For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? (1 Cor 5)

No, sorry, that is a pretty flimsy effort of trying to have Scripture say something else than it is plainly saying: There is he that says he is a Jew, and is not, and is a liar, because he that says he is a Jew outwardly only is not a Jew at all.

Unfortunately, as is often the case in trying to keep an erroneous interpretation of Scripture, our 'real' Bible study is really just a manipulation of Scripture.

true bloodline Jews

So he is a Jew that is one outwardly, and is not circumcised inwardly?

There is still a 'bloodline' seed of flesh of promise?

They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9)

The children of promise counted for the seed of Abraham are still by bloodline of the flesh?

 

[Davy]

As I've said before I appreciate the challenges, because if accurate then I am corrected, and otherwise I am forced to be more distinct and dig deeper to refute, which has been the case so far.

You won't understand what I've revealed unless you study the Old Testament Books equally with the New Testament Books. And even then, if you heed men's doctrines, you'll still miss what God showed about the crept in unawares among Israel. Christ's parable of the tares will remain a mystery to you.

You're just too busy heeding men's silly seminary doctrines to actually understand what Apostle Paul said there

You need to leave behind the schoolboy in-house sparring. I am not a teacher nor a student of such places. I have never heard nor read what I am offering. I was only schooled as you in man's tradition of prophesy. These Scriptures compelled me to step back and take another look.

And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

When Lord Jesus described the "synagogue of Satan" who only 'claim' to be Jews but are not, that clearly isn't about the blinded Israel in part which Paul was describing in Romans 11.

You are the first one to try and take this basic point on: There is he that says he is a Jew and is not, and the Lord calls him a liar, but is of the synagogue of Satan.

I'm not the first proclaiming that Jesus was pointing more to the "certain men crept in unawares" of Jude 1, and the "tares" of Matthew 13 that the devil sowed. You've simply got a lot of catching up to do if this has never been revealed to you, so you can claim this as school-boy antics if you want, but it would be to your own deception.

The idea you keep toying with from Apostle Paul is a spiritual comparison between those 'born again' in Jesus, and those not 'born again'. That... is not specific to being a Jew. Paul is merely using an expression to show being 'born again' is equally for everyone who believes on Jesus Christ, regardless of one's nation of birth. He is simply using the expression of being a true Jew to represent that spiritual state of being 'born again', not as a statement about bloodlines.

But the "synagogue of Satan" idea in Revelation 2 & 3, Jesus is speaking to His very elect, because those two Churches are the only ones out of the 7 that He had no problem with. And with that "synagogue of Satan" title He was pointing to the literal servants of the devil, Christ's enemies that are NOT DECEIVED.

Those on the 'milk' of God's Word, especially as taught in traditional Christianity from the seminaries, they like to think that every soul born in the flesh that turns to evil is only by being deceived and that they don't really know the difference between right and wrong. No, the ones Lord Jesus was pointing to are the devil's elect, those servants that 'know'... who they worship and follow. That idea cannot be applied to the Jews of Roman 11 which Paul said that God blinded away from The Gospel temporarily. So here's Scripture you won't find being taught in the Church because it's about the "strong meat", and not "milk"...

Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

When Peter and Jude speak of these "brute beasts", it is showing how those were ordained to that condemnation of working against Christ. Many brethren don't understand how Satan has a group of elect servants here on earth working for him, and they worship him, and know they are worshipping the devil. The actual first introduction to this group in God's Word was in the Old Testament Books, with the "workers of iniquity", which is what Paul was pointing with the "mystery of iniquity", and Apostle John with the "many antichrists" already at work.

2 Peter 2:12-14
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
KJV

Jude 10-13
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
KJV

Firstly, if we are to refute this, we must first refute the first step to this, which is he is not a Jew, and he is a Jew:

Is there a Jew that is one outwardly circumcised, and there is one inwardly circumcised that is not a Jew? in the sight of God....

I've given you Scripture evidence for what I'm saying, and that evidence shows you cannot just try and rely on the spiritual Jew expression Paul used.

 

[Davy]

that clearly isn't about the blinded Israel in part which Paul was describing in Romans 11. How do we know? Because Paul showed in Romans 11:25 forward that those Jews God blinded away from The Gospel are going to be saved...

There is a synagogue of Satan with those who are not Jews, but are on claiming to be Jews, while there is a synagogue of Jews in sight of God justified as such?

They are all in the same synagogues, that's been the problem. Many of the high priests were appointed by the Romans and king Herod who was an Idumean (lineage of Esau). If you pay attention in The Four Gospels, you'll notice that certain ones among the Pharisees Jesus rebuked (especially in John 8), and others like Nicodemus who also was a Pharisee, He revealed mysteries of the kingdom to (John 3). Nicodemus helped provide spices for Jesus' burial. Note also that many times a group of scribes accompanied the Pharisees that sought to kill Jesus. Per 1 Chronicles 2:55 the scribes of Israel were of the Kenites, a Canaanite people (Genesis 15).

The actual Scripture evidence is that by the time of Lord Jesus' 1st coming, the religious system in Jerusalem was already stacked with pagan foreigners, the crept in unawares ordained to the condemnation against Him to have Him murdered. That stacking began in the Old Testament times. By the time of the return of the house of Judah remnant per Ezra, many of the leaders had even taken wives of the Canaanites, and had children by them. Ezra sat down on the steps and cried, and began pulling out his hair (Ezra 9).

 

[Davy]

Paul showed in Romans 11:25 forward that those Jews God blinded away from The Gospel are going to be saved...

You replace the 'if' with 'are': And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in

I'm quoting Paul, not adding or taking away, so maybe you ought to read it again, and that without adding men's doctrines to it...

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'

Of course that means once God removes their blindness HE put upon them for this world, they still must choose Christ Jesus. Paul above is affirming they will... believe on Jesus in that future time with how he quoted from Isaiah. It's because God did promise to save His chosen of Israel; the New Covenant did not change nor eliminate that promise to them.

Apparently, one of the things you struggle with is God's election, His choosing. Do you not remember what Saul, who was a Pharisee, what he was doing on the road to Damascus when Jesus struck him down and converted him? Just when did Paul choose Christ there? He didn't, Jesus chose Paul, like He said in Acts 9. When a direct intervention from The LORD like that happens, it points to God's ownership, like shown in John 17. It shows God already owned Saul, which is how He could directly intervene with converting Saul.

So who are we to say that God won't directly intervene with those Jews He blinded in converting them when Lord Jesus appears? If you've missed it, the fact that He already has divinely intervened with spiritually blinding them away from The Gospel already shows His ownership of them, which is what Paul is also pointing out here...

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

In other words, God already owns them, He chose them, and He made certain promises to them that He will keep, regardless of what they may want, and regardless of how we may think.


30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

Just as in times past, the Gentiles were without God and His covenants. Yet through their unbelief, we Gentiles have obtained mercy, and by our belief are graffed in to Christ.

So when the time comes (at Christ's future return), Paul shows they will believe on Jesus once the stupor God put upon them is removed. This is why Zechariah 12 at the end shows there will be a great mourning for Christ by the orthodox Jews in that future time.

 

[robert derrick]

You won't understand what I've revealed unless you study the Old Testament Books equally with the New Testament Books. And even then, if you heed men's doctrines, you'll still miss what God showed about the crept in unawares among Israel. Christ's parable of the tares will remain a mystery to you.



I'm not the first proclaiming that Jesus was pointing more to the "certain men crept in unawares" of Jude 1, and the "tares" of Matthew 13 that the devil sowed. You've simply got a lot of catching up to do if this has never been revealed to you, so you can claim this as school-boy antics if you want, but it would be to your own deception.

The idea you keep toying with from Apostle Paul is a spiritual comparison between those 'born again' in Jesus, and those not 'born again'. That... is not specific to being a Jew. Paul is merely using an expression to show being 'born again' is equally for everyone who believes on Jesus Christ, regardless of one's nation of birth. He is simply using the expression of being a true Jew to represent that spiritual state of being 'born again', not as a statement about bloodlines.

But the "synagogue of Satan" idea in Revelation 2 & 3, Jesus is speaking to His very elect, because those two Churches are the only ones out of the 7 that He had no problem with. And with that "synagogue of Satan" title He was pointing to the literal servants of the devil, Christ's enemies that are NOT DECEIVED.

Those on the 'milk' of God's Word, especially as taught in traditional Christianity from the seminaries, they like to think that every soul born in the flesh that turns to evil is only by being deceived and that they don't really know the difference between right and wrong. No, the ones Lord Jesus was pointing to are the devil's elect, those servants that 'know'... who they worship and follow. That idea cannot be applied to the Jews of Roman 11 which Paul said that God blinded away from The Gospel temporarily. So here's Scripture you won't find being taught in the Church because it's about the "strong meat", and not "milk"...

Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

When Peter and Jude speak of these "brute beasts", it is showing how those were ordained to that condemnation of working against Christ. Many brethren don't understand how Satan has a group of elect servants here on earth working for him, and they worship him, and know they are worshipping the devil. The actual first introduction to this group in God's Word was in the Old Testament Books, with the "workers of iniquity", which is what Paul was pointing with the "mystery of iniquity", and Apostle John with the "many antichrists" already at work.

2 Peter 2:12-14
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
KJV

Jude 10-13
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
KJV



I've given you Scripture evidence for what I'm saying, and that evidence shows you cannot just try and rely on the spiritual Jew expression Paul used.

You won't understand what I've revealed unless you study the Old Testament Books equally with the New Testament Books.

And so long as we read old testament prophecy without the scriptures of the new covenant, but through the dark glass of a promised seed after the flesh, then like the unbelieving Jews of old, we are blinding ourselves to the fulfillment of all prophecy in Christ Jesus.

 

[Davy]

You won't understand what I've revealed unless you study the Old Testament Books equally with the New Testament Books.

And so long as we read old testament prophecy without the scriptures of the new covenant, but through the dark glass of a promised seed after the flesh, then like the unbelieving Jews of old, we are blinding ourselves to the fulfillment of all prophecy in Christ Jesus.

I'm a Gentile (at least as far as I know), and I recognize God's promises to His chosen Israel 'that He already owns'. Our Lord Jesus is simply going to fulfill those promises at His return, and one of them is about His gathering of them out of the countries where He scattered them, and bringing them back into the lands He promised their fathers. Scripture like Ezekiel 37 is a major... witness to this. And in the Book of Isaiah there is much more evidence of those future events. Even the descriptions of the new Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22 are hard-linked to what God revealed through Ezekiel in the Ezekiel 40 through 47 chapters.

All that is not going to happen as a separation between God's chosen of Israel and Christ's Church, which is an idea from men called Dispensationalism. In Ezekiel 44, the only ones allowed to approach Christ's table in that future Millennium are called the Zadok (means The Just). Those represent Christ's faithful Church that waited for Him. And the chambers of the priests shown in those Ezekiel 40 - 47 chapters are the "mansions" Jesus revealed in The Father's "house", for that future Millennium sanctuary is called God's "house" in those Ezekiel chapters.

Not only that, but the River and tree of life mentioned in Revelation 22 is also shown in the Ezekiel 47 chapter, with the living waters of that River in God's house flowing out of the sanctuary to feed other waters upon this earth healing them. And we are even shown the many trees bearing their fruits in their months (tree of life) on either side of that River. Literal locations on earth in the middle east are given with that.

Yet many brethren today are instead being told Christ's Salvation is going to be up in the clouds, off this earth, and that this earth is going to be no more! Men can dream up all sorts of fables on that as long as they don't have to keep to God's Holy Writ.

 

[robert derrick]

You won't understand what I've revealed unless you study the Old Testament Books equally with the New Testament Books. And even then, if you heed men's doctrines, you'll still miss what God showed about the crept in unawares among Israel. Christ's parable of the tares will remain a mystery to you.



I'm not the first proclaiming that Jesus was pointing more to the "certain men crept in unawares" of Jude 1, and the "tares" of Matthew 13 that the devil sowed. You've simply got a lot of catching up to do if this has never been revealed to you, so you can claim this as school-boy antics if you want, but it would be to your own deception.

The idea you keep toying with from Apostle Paul is a spiritual comparison between those 'born again' in Jesus, and those not 'born again'. That... is not specific to being a Jew. Paul is merely using an expression to show being 'born again' is equally for everyone who believes on Jesus Christ, regardless of one's nation of birth. He is simply using the expression of being a true Jew to represent that spiritual state of being 'born again', not as a statement about bloodlines.

But the "synagogue of Satan" idea in Revelation 2 & 3, Jesus is speaking to His very elect, because those two Churches are the only ones out of the 7 that He had no problem with. And with that "synagogue of Satan" title He was pointing to the literal servants of the devil, Christ's enemies that are NOT DECEIVED.

Those on the 'milk' of God's Word, especially as taught in traditional Christianity from the seminaries, they like to think that every soul born in the flesh that turns to evil is only by being deceived and that they don't really know the difference between right and wrong. No, the ones Lord Jesus was pointing to are the devil's elect, those servants that 'know'... who they worship and follow. That idea cannot be applied to the Jews of Roman 11 which Paul said that God blinded away from The Gospel temporarily. So here's Scripture you won't find being taught in the Church because it's about the "strong meat", and not "milk"...

Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

When Peter and Jude speak of these "brute beasts", it is showing how those were ordained to that condemnation of working against Christ. Many brethren don't understand how Satan has a group of elect servants here on earth working for him, and they worship him, and know they are worshipping the devil. The actual first introduction to this group in God's Word was in the Old Testament Books, with the "workers of iniquity", which is what Paul was pointing with the "mystery of iniquity", and Apostle John with the "many antichrists" already at work.

2 Peter 2:12-14
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
KJV

Jude 10-13
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
KJV



I've given you Scripture evidence for what I'm saying, and that evidence shows you cannot just try and rely on the spiritual Jew expression Paul used.

I appreciate the many things you will offer; however, we have come to the point, where we are arguing across one another. I would like to continue, and will respond to your points gladly.

But for now, I would like you to adequately refute the basis Scriptures for my whole argument; otherwise we will continue to talk around each other with no end in sight:

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2)

1. Is there a Jew that is one circumcised outwardly, but not inwardly, so that he is a Jew, that is one outwardly.
2. Is there one that is circumcised inwardly, but is not a Jew, so that he is not a Jew that is one inwardly.

I.e. There is no Jew that is one outwardly only, and all such are liars that say so.