He is a Jew, He is not a Jew: the physical seed of promise

[robert derrick]

This is patently false and you are also contradicting Scripture. So what exactly are you trying to prove?

ROMANS 11: THE SALVATION OF ISRAEL IN THE FUTURE
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:

The physical seed was made enemies of God, that God might be released from His covenant with them and go into all the world to save them that believe, even as Pharaoh was made His enemy, that He might deliver the physical seed with many signs and wonders and get honor for Himself.

but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Be cause they are beloved for the fathers' sake, that rebellious physical seed, though yet enemies of God, may still be grafted in again to Israel and Jacob as seed of faith, if they abide not in unbelief. The Egyptians had no such fathers to be beloved by, so they were given no such place of redemption with God.

The physical seed of Abraham and Hagar mat become the seed of faith of Abraham and Sarah, because of their fathers, not because they themselves are of promise anymore with God.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The physical seed drawing back at the mount, nor in crucifying the Lord, would prevent God having seed of promise by Abraham as Isaac, who would now be seed of faith by Jesus.

God did not repent of His promise to Abraham, nor His call to seed of Abraham to be holy as He is holy, even when the physical seed had His beloved Son killed, who came to confirm that promise to them, and was rejected.

The gifts and calling of God with promise to Abraham was not repented of by God, and is now to the seed of faith, while the physical seed have removed themselves forever from the promise, except they repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[robert derrick]

Just adding to comment about circumcision.
Circumcision of the Heart, was not something new in the NT.

True, but it also was not part of the law of Moses, which was weak in that it commanded only outward obedience, it could not be yet ministered by the Spirit to the heart, until Christ.

Later in the prophets God began to call upon His people to be inwardly circumcised and obedient, not just outwardly, and promised a new covenant with them that had power to do so, which is fulfilled in Christ.

Now the law of Christ and commandment of God begins with the heart, so that God now says no one is even a Jew or child of Abraham as Isaac, unless they believe from the heart and are circumcised therein.

I.e. the exhortation of inward circumcision can no longer be satisfied by the will of man as the old physical seed of promise, but only by the work of the Spirit as the seed of faith in Jesus, who are now the seed of promise as Isaac.

So circumcision is not new in the new testament, but only in the new testament is it fulfilled for all the children of Abraham by faith, from birth.

 

[robert derrick]

Can the children of Abraham and the children of God not be the children of Israel? Yes, they are, and much more, they are the children and brethren of Jesus Christ the risen Lord and Savior of all Israel.

Can the physical seed of Abraham and Hagar be the children of Israel? No, not so long as Scripture stands firm.

What is the holy fixation on 'Israel' and 'Jacob' that requires a physical seed to continue, and rejects any notion of the seed of faith of Abraham being likewise the seed of promise, despite the fact that Scripture has concluded all the physical seed to be no longer of promise as Isaac, but of bondage as Ishmael, and it is the seed of faith that is of Abraham and the freewoman Sarah.

The reason is not because they care about the physical seed, but because they are in love their deep and long-cherished study of prophesy and Revelation, that requires a continued physical seed of promise, for their interpretation to be correct.

I understand the reluctance, especially since it is only a few verses of Scripture taken literally, that can blow down their whole house of cards.

So long as prophesy is seen through the lens of a physical seed of promise, then that prophetic glass will remain very dark indeed. It is even as the physical seed themselves who continue to read Scripture through the vail of Moses over their hearts.

If they allow that vail to be taken away by the Lord, then they shall be free to read Scripture more truly. Likewise if we allow the physical seed to be done away, even as it is by the Scriptures, then we will be free to read prophesy more surely.

 

[robert derrick]

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)

So the seed of God is not the seed of promise?

Those in the natural body born with the seed of God in them are the children of promise, but are not the children of Israel in prophecy? Because that can only be the natural seed of man born into bondage?

The seed of God is the seed of promise is the seed of faith: the children of Abraham and of God by faith, born of Abraham and the freewoman, not of Abraham and the bondwoman.

The children of promise are the children of prophesy.

 

[robert derrick]

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. (Romans 9:7-9)

The children of promise are the seed of Abraham, born of the Word of promise as sons of Sarah, even as Isaac.

The natural seed, the physical seed, the children of the flesh of Abraham are not the children of God, neither called the seed in Isaac, neither are they the children of promise made to Abraham by God's Word.

Therefore, the prophecies pertaining to the children of Israel and Jacob are the seed by Isaac: the children of God and of Abraham and of promise.

There is no more physical seed of promise pertaining to Abraham and Isaac, and so neither pertaining to Jacob and Israel. The prophesies of old pertain to the children of promise in the new Covenant of Christ, fulfilled by Christ in them by faith.

 

[robert derrick]

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. (Rom 9:6)

All that are called Israel, are not Israel, neither are they all Jews, that are called Jews.

The only Israel that is Israel and Jews that are Jews, are those of faith with inward circumcision of the heart. Those of the flesh and outwardly circumcised are neither Israel nor Jews, though they are said to be Israel and Jews by themselves and the world, but no more by God.

And so all Israel is now saved, for they are all Israel and Jews now which are of faith of Abraham, the children of promise called the seed of promise in Isaac, by whom Israel came.

They of the flesh and outward circumcision are the children of the bondwoman, not the free, by whom Ishmael came, not Israel.

Read the prophesies pertaining to Israel and Jacob through the clear glass of the Scriptures of the new covenant of Christ, not through the dark glass of the physical seed of old, that have vanished with the covenant made to them in the mount.

 

[Curtis]

1. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; Neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; And circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit... (Rom 2:28-29)

He is not a Jew, that is one born of the flesh: Not according to God.

He is not circumcised, that is circumcised in the flesh: Not according to God.

He is a Jew, that is born of the Spirit: According to God.

He is circumcised, that is circumcised in the spirit: According to God.

And I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. (Rev 2:9, 3:9)

Any who say they are Jews by the flesh are liars, as well as any who say they are circumcised in the flesh, because according to God, they are not.

Only those born of the Spirit and circumcised in the spirit can say they are Jews before God, and not be called liars by God.

2. The children of Israel, and of Isaac, and of Abraham are the seed of promise fulfilled in Christ Jesus:

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Gal 3:7)

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. (Gal 4:28)

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:26)

The children of God by faith in Jesus are the children of Abraham; the children of promise as Isaac.

The Lord God, who raised up the seed of promise by Abraham and Isaac, called them in Scripture the children of Israel. And the Lord God, who returned them from captivity of Babylon, called them in Scripture the Jews. Now that same Lord and God calls them no more the children of Israel and Jews, but rather calls them liars, if they call themselves such after the flesh.

The Lord God and risen Savior now calls children of Abraham and Jews only those born after the Spirit and circumcised of the heart.

Romans 11 is the cure for replacement theology.

 

[Curtis]

As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:

The physical seed was made enemies of God, that God might be released from His covenant with them and go into all the world to save them that believe, even as Pharaoh was made His enemy, that He might deliver the physical seed with many signs and wonders and get honor for Himself.

but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Be cause they are beloved for the fathers' sake, that rebellious physical seed, though yet enemies of God, may still be grafted in again to Israel and Jacob as seed of faith, if they abide not in unbelief. The Egyptians had no such fathers to be beloved by, so they were given no such place of redemption with God.

The physical seed of Abraham and Hagar mat become the seed of faith of Abraham and Sarah, because of their fathers, not because they themselves are of promise anymore with God.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The physical seed drawing back at the mount, nor in crucifying the Lord, would prevent God having seed of promise by Abraham as Isaac, who would now be seed of faith by Jesus.

God did not repent of His promise to Abraham, nor His call to seed of Abraham to be holy as He is holy, even when the physical seed had His beloved Son killed, who came to confirm that promise to them, and was rejected.

The gifts and calling of God with promise to Abraham was not repented of by God, and is now to the seed of faith, while the physical seed have removed themselves forever from the promise, except they repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

To cure yourself of replacement theogony, read Romans 11 and everyplace it uses the word Israel, replace it with the word church.

When it says salvation came to the gentiles (the church) to make Israel jealous, it means that salvation came to the church to make the church Jealous.

When it says most of Israel is ungodly and cut off from their own olive tree by unbelief. It means most of the church is ungodly and in unbelief.

Romans 11 starts off with Paul unequivocally stating that God has not cast off His people, the nation of Israel.

And Paul does not say that real Jews are the church now.

He’s telling national and genetic Jews that they are no longer Jewish just because of their nationality, and Jewish religion, but must undergo spiritual transformation and circumcision of their heart, to remain Jewish in the new covenant.

That’s not the same as claiming all gentile believers are spiritually Jewish.

Believers are spiritually the seed of Abraham and heirs to the Abrahamic covenant, but Abraham was a Hebrew, not a Jew - so believers are spiritual Hebrews - not spiritual Jews.

This is further established by the fact that the new covenant is still with the HOUSE of Israel and the HOUSE of Judah, which absolutely means the Nation of Israel, not so-called spiritual Israel.

Jeremiah 31 - and Hebrews 8 and 9 says Jesus is mediator of the Jeremiah 31 new covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah, and that the new covenant went into effect with the death of Jesus.

To prove that point, Jesus said He came ONLY for the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel, and forbade His apostles from going to the gentiles - so the House if Israel in the Jeremiah 31 new covenant is National Israel.

 

[Robert Gwin]

At the outset, I truly do thank anyone who wants to try and overthrow my thinking on this, for I will either be corrected and learn better or more confirmed, as I endeavor to respond:

However, I believe it is first necessary to refute the basis for the theory; otherwise, I will take it as correct without objection, and so will argue any prophesy of Scripture from it:
1. He is not a Jew that is one outwardly: By a literal reading therefore, there are no more outward Jews with God. They that were by covenant before are not now, even as that covenant has been done and away and vanished. And they who continue to say they are, called liars by Jesus.

Are there still remaining Jews that are outward? He is a Jew that is one outwardly? Are there any that say they are Jews and are liars? Who are they that say they are Jews and are not lying:

He is a Jew that is one inwardly, circumcised with the heart in the Spirit. The only Jews called as such by God after the cross are those born of His Spirit and inwardly circumcised. It is no longer possible to have inward circumcision of heart without faith in Jesus, as was exhorted by God in old prophesy of Scripture. (Jerem 4:4)

Is he a Jew that is one inwardly?

2. The brethren of the Lord are only they who believe and follow Him. The physical seed of Abraham and Sarah were called the brethren: the whole house of Israel (Lev 10:6) in a covenant with God, that no longer exists with God, and so they are no longer brethren with God.

3. The physical seed that was of promise by Abraham and Sarah, as Isaac, are no longer a seed of promise by Sarah, but rather have made themselves a seed of bondage by Hagar. They who were the physical seed of promise as Isaac, are now the physical seed of bondage as Ishmael.

With these I conclude there is no more physical seed of promise with God, but all physical seed are one with one corrupted blood from Adam (Acts 17), and all are forever equally commanded to repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If any of these reasonings of Scripture are incorrect, then my whole argument against old prophecies being fulfilled for a particular physical seed of promise falls apart.

As to your point, it is not Scriptural to speak of a 'spiritual' seed of God:

In Scripture there is no 'spiritual' Israelite nor Jew nor chosen people of promise separate from the physical bodies and souls of the children of Israel and of God. 'Spiritual' Israelite and seed of promise is not named in Scripture, but is only named by those who need to have a physical seed of promise and a spiritual seed of promise, in order to keep an interpretation of prophesy that requires both in the world at the same time.

1. The old covenant was made with a physical seed and people, and so is the new. We are born by and in the spirit, and we are also 'spiritual', if we keep His Word and walk in His Spirit, but we not 'spiritual' children only.

Our physical bodies are His temple and church, though yet mortal and corrupt in flesh, and the only time there will be a spiritual body, is in the resurrection (1 Cor 15:44). So long as we remain in our natural bodies, then the body of Christ is a natural body, by the indwelling Spirit. The body of Christ is not a 'spiritual' body residing within and separate from the natural body of believers.

The physical seed was called the house of Israel and of Jacob and the children of Israel (Ex 16:31, 19:3), they are also referred to as souls in the house of Jacob (Gen 46:27), and so that house is built of a physical people that are circumcised inwardly by God: souls saved by God.

There is no 'spiritual' seed of God that is separate from the souls and people of God.

2. Claiming a physical seed of promise today vs. a 'spiritual' seed of promise allows for 2 seeds of promise in the world: one entirely physical and the other bodily by the Spirit. Which is also contrary to Scripture. (Gal 3:16)

There has been, there is, and there ever shall be only one seed of promise and children of God at a time. And that seed now is them in Christ Jesus, which is the promised seed of God, which promise was made to Abraham over 400 years before the law of Moses, which was introduced due to the transgressions of the physical seed at the mount: 1st when they drew back from His person on the mount (Ex 20:18-19), and then when they went immediately into idolatry, while Moses was with God in the mount.

That seed of promise to Abraham, as Isaac, was therefore to come after the law was to be done away:

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made...

The promised seed made to Abraham was not to come into the world until after the law, which had only been added due to the transgressions of the physical seed that made them unworthy to inherit that promise, and they have forever done away with their physical lineage of Abraham by Sarah, when they crucified the Lord.

Yes sir Robert we agree. There are of course still descendants of Jacob, Judah in full truth that still exist, however it is impossible to know who they are as the records were destroyed/lost at the destruction of Jerusalem. That is why we are very convinced that Jesus is the foretold Messiah.

You may not realize however, that Jesus has sheep that are not of that fold John 10:16. Those Israelites are very small in number.

 

[DPMartin]

Our 'own judgment' is when we have no Scriptural basis for it, and so our judgment is personal and usually wrong. We are however told by Jesus to judge righteous judgment, which is that which God judges according to His Word.

If we judge that a brother or sister is entered into open riotous living, which would be obviously out in the open, then we are commanded to not have Christian fellowship[ with them, except they repent, and then we are commanded to restore them openly without finding fault.

It is understood not to keep company with open hypocrites in company of the faith. Nothing is said about being accusative, nor combative, nor discourteous even, only not to partake of their sin by partaking of their company as good soldiers in Christ.

And Paul was corrected by God, when he first wrote the the Corinthians to do as you suggest and not 'get around' any fornicators at all, which was a hold over of his Jewish upbringing, not to 'company' or so much as touch the heathen:

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation. (Acts 10)

you didn't even use the whole verse and that statement was Peter's:

Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

what sinner isn't common or unclean in the view of the law?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

1. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; Neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; And circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit... (Rom 2:28-29)

He is not a Jew, that is one born of the flesh: Not according to God.

He is not circumcised, that is circumcised in the flesh: Not according to God.

He is a Jew, that is born of the Spirit: According to God.

He is circumcised, that is circumcised in the spirit: According to God.

And I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. (Rev 2:9, 3:9)

Any who say they are Jews by the flesh are liars, as well as any who say they are circumcised in the flesh, because according to God, they are not.

Only those born of the Spirit and circumcised in the spirit can say they are Jews before God, and not be called liars by God.

2. The children of Israel, and of Isaac, and of Abraham are the seed of promise fulfilled in Christ Jesus:

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Gal 3:7)

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. (Gal 4:28)

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:26)

The children of God by faith in Jesus are the children of Abraham; the children of promise as Isaac.

The Lord God, who raised up the seed of promise by Abraham and Isaac, called them in Scripture the children of Israel. And the Lord God, who returned them from captivity of Babylon, called them in Scripture the Jews. Now that same Lord and God calls them no more the children of Israel and Jews, but rather calls them liars, if they call themselves such after the flesh.

The Lord God and risen Savior now calls children of Abraham and Jews only those born after the Spirit and circumcised of the heart.

This sounds like Replacement Theology. According to Romans 11, God is not done with Israel, He has a Covenant with their blood descendants. We also see in Rev. 7 & 14 that God chooses 144k male virgins, 12k from each tribe.

Look at the Context! Look at the preceding verses from 17-27. Jews are being addressed here. So in conclusion, the real Jew is the one who is of the Bloodline of the Jews who is circumcised spiritually, born again.
Are you claiming that all Christians are Jews? Gentiles have been grafted into the Vine and so now the scripture stating:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Gal. 3:28
Spiritually speaking, in God's eternal kingdom, there is no difference.
On earth, physically there is.
Rom. 2:28, 29 does not conflict with Gal. 3:28, because one pertains to the Jews and the other to all.
If Romans 2:28, 29 pertained to all of us it would contradict Gal. 3:28.
One would imply we are all Jews and the other, they don't exist.
I'm still a male, but spiritually, there is no sex.

 

[Taken]

True, but it also was not part of the law of Moses, which was weak in that it commanded only outward obedience, it could not be yet ministered by the Spirit to the heart, until Christ.

Later in the prophets God began to call upon His people to be inwardly circumcised and obedient, not just outwardly, and promised a new covenant with them that had power to do so, which is fulfilled in Christ.

Now the law of Christ and commandment of God begins with the heart, so that God now says no one is even a Jew or child of Abraham as Isaac, unless they believe from the heart and are circumcised therein.

I.e. the exhortation of inward circumcision can no longer be satisfied by the will of man as the old physical seed of promise, but only by the work of the Spirit as the seed of faith in Jesus, who are now the seed of promise as Isaac.

So circumcision is not new in the new testament, but only in the new testament is it fulfilled for all the children of Abraham by faith, from birth.

Sure. The spoken, written and published Scriptures are certainly a masterpiece finely knitted together, bit by bit builded, harmonizing, all inclusive....and some men delving into all angles of the bit by bit and some men without a care.

 

[robert derrick]

This sounds like Replacement Theology. According to Romans 11, God is not done with Israel, He has a Covenant with their blood descendants. We also see in Rev. 7 & 14 that God chooses 144k male virgins, 12k from each tribe.

Look at the Context! Look at the preceding verses from 17-27. Jews are being addressed here. So in conclusion, the real Jew is the one who is of the Bloodline of the Jews who is circumcised spiritually, born again.
Are you claiming that all Christians are Jews? Gentiles have been grafted into the Vine and so now the scripture stating:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Gal. 3:28
Spiritually speaking, in God's eternal kingdom, there is no difference.
On earth, physically there is.
Rom. 2:28, 29 does not conflict with Gal. 3:28, because one pertains to the Jews and the other to all.
If Romans 2:28, 29 pertained to all of us it would contradict Gal. 3:28.
One would imply we are all Jews and the other, they don't exist.
I'm still a male, but spiritually, there is no sex.

I appreciate the challenge. It appears convincing, and I know by your record you make it honestly and sincerely.

I have no idea what replacement theology is, except in this context it may be what you call it. I have never studied it as a theology, and my background is completely traditional: rapture of the church before the great tribulation, which is God's last exclusive visit upon the children and nation of Israel by seed of Abraham and Sarah.

Look at the Context! Look at the preceding verses from 17-27. Jews are being addressed here. So in conclusion, the real Jew is the one who is of the Bloodline of the Jews who is circumcised spiritually, born again.

And therefore (vs 28-29) do not stand alone pertaining to all people, but only to the bloodline of Abraham and Sarah:

Sorry, but that is plainly not true with Scripture: The context of the beginning and ending Scriptures in Rom 2 is plainly of every man, whether circumcised Jew or uncircumcised Gentile, especially at the end, where the key Scriptures are given. The only part exclusive to circumcised Jews in the flesh is the middle 17-25: For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

The conclusion to the Jews of the flesh in particular is that they have made themselves uncircumcision by unbelief and transgression and crucifixion of their own Messiah: Jesus.

Verse 26 picks up once again with the uncircumcised Gentiles: Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Yes: them which were not circumcision by nature are now made circumcision by God the Spirit in the heart, and them that were circumcision by flesh are made uncircumcision nor Jews with God, and they who call themselves Jews and Israel of God outwardly by seed of man are liars (Rev 2:9, 3:9) Even by seed of Abraham, for they have made themselves instead seed of bondage by Hagar, as Ishmael, not of promise by Sarah, as Isaac (Gal 4:28-31): They that are born after the flesh are no more the children of promise by Sarah, but have made themselves the children of bondage by Hagar.

Verses 26-29 plainly include all people, whether circumcision by flesh or uncircumcision by nature.

Therefore the last Scriptures stand on their own pertaining to any and all comers, even as the first half of rebuke against hypocritical judgment pertains to any and everyone who would judge another.

It is God who made circumcision and the Jew, and the covenant with them, and the same God can completely change it all and make a new covenant with new circumcision and Jew, that is one inwardly by fatih of Jesus, whether grafted in from the Gentiles, or grafted in again from the physical seed, who were once Jews after the flesh, because they are beloved for the fathers' sake. (Rom 11:28)

Are you claiming that all Christians are Jews?

Scripture is saying all circumcised in heart by the Spirit of God are called Jews by God, which is no longer deniable, because that Scripture pertains specifically to them that were uncircumcision by nature. And the only way after the cross for any to be circumcised in heart by the Spirit is through faith of Jesus: Christians.

I'm sorry friend, but you read the context of the chapter wrong, unless you want to say the uncircumcised by nature does not apply to uncircumcised gentiles.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes sir Robert we agree. There are of course still descendants of Jacob, Judah in full truth that still exist, however it is impossible to know who they are as the records were destroyed/lost at the destruction of Jerusalem. That is why we are very convinced that Jesus is the foretold Messiah.

You may not realize however, that Jesus has sheep that are not of that fold John 10:16. Those Israelites are very small in number.

Are you speaking of physical descendants of Jacob, who are regrafted believers in Jesus and circumcised of heart?

If so, you're not really getting what I am saying Scripture proves:

There are no more physical descendants of Jacob: not with God. Because there is no more physical seed of promise, as Isaac by Sarah. That seed of the old covenant has vanished away by God's judgment upon them at the cross of Christ. That seed, like all other ancient nations are gone with the ancient days.

The current seed that calls themselves Jews, are not the Jews of the old covenant, though they like to think so and try to worship in the Jews' religion as such, but they have been born into the seed of bondage by Hagar as Ishmael, because of the sin of their fathers who made themselves uncircumcision by rejecting the Messiah.

But if any of these repent and believe Jesus, then they are grafted in with all others, who are Jews inwardly by faith in the Spirit of Christ.

With God, there is no more physical seed of promise, no more physical descendants of Jacob. That seed was raised up by God Himself and by final rejection, they have been done away by God: they have made themselves no more seed of Abraham and Sarah as Isaac, and so no more physical descendants of Jacob, who came by Isaac.

I say with God, in that the only thing that matters ever is what God says is true in His sight. Man can say and call and think and believe whatever He wants, whether without Scripture, or even against Scripture, but no flesh shall ever be justified in His sight, and no physical seed shall ever be of promise to Him, anymore.

If someone wants to call themselves descendants of Jacob by flesh and bloodline of man, let them. Scripture says no. And if they believe Jesus unto salvation and circumcision of heart, then good, but their bloodline descendancy and will of man matters nothing to God.

 

[Enoch111]

This sounds like Replacement Theology. According to Romans 11, God is not done with Israel, He has a Covenant with their blood descendants. We also see in Rev. 7 & 14 that God chooses 144k male virgins, 12k from each tribe.

Replacement Theology has a long history beginning with the Catholic Church. And there are still many lurking around trying to replace Israel with the Church. But as you have pointed out in Romans 11 and other passages, God is NOT done with Israel, and Paul tells Gentile believers not to be high-minded when thinking about the temporary spiritual blindness of Jews and Israel.

No. Gentile believers will never be a part of the 12 tribes of Israel. But God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church (Jews and Gentiles in one Body) and also an eternal plan and purpose for redeemed and restored Israel (the twelve tribes).

 

[MatthewG]

2 Samuel 5:1 All the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and said, “We are your own flesh and blood. 2 In the past, while Saul was king over us, you were the one who led Israel on their military campaigns. And the Lord said to you, ‘You will shepherd my people Israel, and you will become their ruler.’”

3 When all the elders of Israel had come to King David at Hebron, the king made a covenant with them at Hebron before the Lord, and they anointed David king over Israel.

4 David was thirty years old when he became king, and he reigned forty years. 5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and in Jerusalem he reigned over all Israel and Judah thirty-three years.

David was a Jew, and Jesus was born of the seed of David?

Religion in Israel is manifested primarily in Judaism, the ethnic religion of the Jewish people. The State of Israel declares itself as a "Jewish and democratic state" and is the only country in the world with a Jewish-majority population (see Jewish state).

Galatians 4:4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, subject to the law. (Jesus was born under the Jewish Law)

As usually translated, Paul says that Jesus was “born of the seed of David” meaning that he was a descendant of David. As Paul is our earliest witness to the Jesus movement, writing decades before the gospels, this would seem to cause problems for theories in which Jesus is not a real man.

 

[robert derrick]

To cure yourself of replacement theogony, read Romans 11 and everyplace it uses the word Israel, replace it with the word church.

When it says salvation came to the gentiles (the church) to make Israel jealous, it means that salvation came to the church to make the church Jealous.

When it says most of Israel is ungodly and cut off from their own olive tree by unbelief. It means most of the church is ungodly and in unbelief.

Romans 11 starts off with Paul unequivocally stating that God has not cast off His people, the nation of Israel.

And Paul does not say that real Jews are the church now.

He’s telling national and genetic Jews that they are no longer Jewish just because of their nationality, and Jewish religion, but must undergo spiritual transformation and circumcision of their heart, to remain Jewish in the new covenant.

That’s not the same as claiming all gentile believers are spiritually Jewish.

Believers are spiritually the seed of Abraham and heirs to the Abrahamic covenant, but Abraham was a Hebrew, not a Jew - so believers are spiritual Hebrews - not spiritual Jews.

This is further established by the fact that the new covenant is still with the HOUSE of Israel and the HOUSE of Judah, which absolutely means the Nation of Israel, not so-called spiritual Israel.

Jeremiah 31 - and Hebrews 8 and 9 says Jesus is mediator of the Jeremiah 31 new covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah, and that the new covenant went into effect with the death of Jesus.

To prove that point, Jesus said He came ONLY for the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel, and forbade His apostles from going to the gentiles - so the House if Israel in the Jeremiah 31 new covenant is National Israel.

Thank you for the task you gave me. It is a challenge; however:

Israel, replace it with the word church.

Who is doing the replacing here? I don't accept the wording itself. It implies a contention, that is not accurate.

Israel has not been replaced. Neither has the Jew. Neither has the God of Abraham been replaced by the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, the covenant with the physical seed has been replaced with the covenant of the seed of faith in Jesus, and the names which God gave to them and their fathers, even as Abraham, not Abram, and Israel, not Jacob, He has bestowed upon a better seed of promise, replacing the unworthy physical seed of unbelief, even as David anointed king over Saul:

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Rom 9)

Pertaining to God's election, He chooses whom He will, and so with His names, He made them in the first place, and He gives them to whom He will, and no man can speak against it nor second guess it as error: the physical seed that He loved from the mount, He now hates as that of Hagar, and the seed of faith whom He once hated as uncircumcised Philistines, He now loves as children of promise as Isaac and Jacob.

But for their fathers' sake, they can yet be grafted in again to become citizens of the Israel of God, without respect to physical seed, but only to His seed of faith by His Son.

He is not a Jew that was outwardly, and he that calls himself Jew by outward circumcision is a liar to God and against what God says: he is a Jew that is one inwardly of His Spirit by faith in Jesus.

The seed has changed with the covenant, but the names remain the same: And God has so named Israel and Jacob and Jew upon His own seed and children of promise as seed and children of Abraham by faith, not by flesh. (Rom 9:8, 14:3) (Gal 3:7, 4:28) (1 Peter 1:23)

Perhaps you may want to cure yourself of traditionalized interpretation, and stop reading prophesy of Scripture through the dark lens of a physical seed of promise, and begin looking more clearly through the seed of faith of Jesus. You will then see clearly who is and who is not Israel of God and Jew of promise: nor more physical of flesh, but only faithful from the heart.

I would respectfully call it the mote of learned tradition, that hinders true reading of prophesy.

I apreciate the challenge, because you do make me think and try to write clearly as possible.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I appreciate the challenge. It appears convincing, and I know by your record you make it honestly and sincerely.

I have no idea what replacement theology is, except in this context it may be what you call it. I have never studied it as a theology, and my background is completely traditional: rapture of the church before the great tribulation, which is God's last exclusive visit upon the children and nation of Israel by seed of Abraham and Sarah.

Look at the Context! Look at the preceding verses from 17-27. Jews are being addressed here. So in conclusion, the real Jew is the one who is of the Bloodline of the Jews who is circumcised spiritually, born again.

And therefore (vs 28-29) do not stand alone pertaining to all people, but only to the bloodline of Abraham and Sarah:

Sorry, but that is plainly not true with Scripture: The context of the beginning and ending Scriptures in Rom 2 is plainly of every man, whether circumcised Jew or uncircumcised Gentile, especially at the end, where the key Scriptures are given. The only part exclusive to circumcised Jews in the flesh is the middle 17-25: For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

The conclusion to the Jews of the flesh in particular is that they have made themselves uncircumcision by unbelief and transgression and crucifixion of their own Messiah: Jesus.

Verse 26 picks up once again with the uncircumcised Gentiles: Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Yes: them which were not circumcision by nature are now made circumcision by God the Spirit in the heart, and them that were circumcision by flesh are made uncircumcision nor Jews with God, and they who call themselves Jews and Israel of God outwardly by seed of man are liars (Rev 2:9, 3:9) Even by seed of Abraham, for they have made themselves instead seed of bondage by Hagar, as Ishmael, not of promise by Sarah, as Isaac (Gal 4:28-31): They that are born after the flesh are no more the children of promise by Sarah, but have made themselves the children of bondage by Hagar.

Verses 26-29 plainly include all people, whether circumcision by flesh or uncircumcision by nature.

Therefore the last Scriptures stand on their own pertaining to any and all comers, even as the first half of rebuke against hypocritical judgment pertains to any and everyone who would judge another.

It is God who made circumcision and the Jew, and the covenant with them, and the same God can completely change it all and make a new covenant with new circumcision and Jew, that is one inwardly by fatih of Jesus, whether grafted in from the Gentiles, or grafted in again from the physical seed, who were once Jews after the flesh, because they are beloved for the fathers' sake. (Rom 11:28)

Are you claiming that all Christians are Jews?

Scripture is saying all circumcised in heart by the Spirit of God are called Jews by God, which is no longer deniable, because that Scripture pertains specifically to them that were uncircumcision by nature. And the only way after the cross for any to be circumcised in heart by the Spirit is through faith of Jesus: Christians.

I'm sorry friend, but you read the context of the chapter wrong, unless you want to say the uncircumcised by nature does not apply to uncircumcised gentiles.

Replacement Theology is simply the belief that the Church replaced Israel, that we are Israel. This has also led to Anti-Semitism, thinking that God has discarded the Jews. He is not finished with Them!

We have not become Jews spiritually. Romans 2:28, 29 is not talking about our salvation, it is a teaching about the salvation of a Jew. It identifies an outward Jew (those who practice the law and circumcision of the flesh) and an inward Jew, (who is circumcised in his heart). Those Jews are valued by God, and saved.
We are neither Jews or Gentiles - the Bible states that in Gal. 3:28.
Btw, Romans 2:17-29 is probably the most avoided passage in the NT and it is primarily because it is misunderstood.

 

[Curtis]

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Rom 9)

Pertaining to God's election, He chooses whom He will, and so with His names, He made them in the first place, and He gives them to whom He will, and no man can speak against it nor second guess it as error: the physical seed that He loved from the mount, He now hates as that of Hagar, and the seed of faith whom He once hated as uncircumcised Philistines, He now loves as children of promise as Isaac and Jacob.

Romans 9 is absolutely not about the election of Jacob to salvation and predestined damnation of Esau, in any way.

Calvinists talk about eisegesis, then do that very thing all the time, and Romans 9 is a very good example of that.

It starts off being about a nation - the Israelites - and Paul quotes from the Old Testament on the topic of Israel, a nation, and when he’s referring to Jacob and Esau, he’s still talking about nations, and is quoting from the Old Testament, from Genesis 25 and Jeremiah 18, which is the potter and clay chapter:

The potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, in Jeremiah 18 is about NATIONS not individuals.


As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)


And Israel, the nation from Jacob is the clay on the potters wheel, (not an individual person such as Esau, destined to wrath or destruction) - and as Jeremiah 18 shows us, God indeed gives mercy on whom He wills - and He wills that He has mercy on those who repents.


The Potter and the Clay.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.


We also find in Jeremiah 18, that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.


No nation (or person) is predestined to destruction.


Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Israel the nation on the potters wheel, continually sinned against God, and was punished for that, and remolded by God on the potters wheel because of it.


This is the opposite of the reformed doctrine predestination narrative. The fate of the nations is dependent on what they do, not on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, and this establishes that the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.


God will have mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.


That God changes His mind about the destiny of any nation,based on what that nation does right (repentance) or does wrong (turns to evil) absolutely wrecks reformed election version of predestination.


BTW, the fact God hated Esaus but loved Jacob is used as proof that Esau was of the unlucky non elect, predestined to hell and damnation.


In reality that statement by God is a well known idiom to the Jews, that means to love less, not to literally hate.


This is easily proven by Jesus telling us that unless we hate our mother and Father and whole family, we aren’t worthy to be His disciples.


It’s obvious that Jesus isn’t teaching us to violate the command to honor our mother and father, or violate the law of love that Jesus proclaimed, that we must love our neighbors as ourselves.


Jesus is saying that we must love Him the most, and love our family less:


Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


God loved Esau less than Jacob.

And Esau was not clay on the potters wheel being made into a vessel of wrath, fitted for destruction.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Robert Gwin]

Are you speaking of physical descendants of Jacob, who are regrafted believers in Jesus and circumcised of heart?

If so, you're not really getting what I am saying Scripture proves:

There are no more physical descendants of Jacob: not with God. Because there is no more physical seed of promise, as Isaac by Sarah. That seed of the old covenant has vanished away by God's judgment upon them at the cross of Christ. That seed, like all other ancient nations are gone with the ancient days.

The current seed that calls themselves Jews, are not the Jews of the old covenant, though they like to think so and try to worship in the Jews' religion as such, but they have been born into the seed of bondage by Hagar as Ishmael, because of the sin of their fathers who made themselves uncircumcision by rejecting the Messiah.

But if any of these repent and believe Jesus, then they are grafted in with all others, who are Jews inwardly by faith in the Spirit of Christ.

With God, there is no more physical seed of promise, no more physical descendants of Jacob. That seed was raised up by God Himself and by final rejection, they have been done away by God: they have made themselves no more seed of Abraham and Sarah as Isaac, and so no more physical descendants of Jacob, who came by Isaac.

I say with God, in that the only thing that matters ever is what God says is true in His sight. Man can say and call and think and believe whatever He wants, whether without Scripture, or even against Scripture, but no flesh shall ever be justified in His sight, and no physical seed shall ever be of promise to Him, anymore.

If someone wants to call themselves descendants of Jacob by flesh and bloodline of man, let them. Scripture says no. And if they believe Jesus unto salvation and circumcision of heart, then good, but their bloodline descendancy and will of man matters nothing to God.

It would be very illogical that every descendant of Jacob would reject the Christ today sir. Thousands of them accepted the new covenant rapidly shortly after the new covenant went into effect. Matter of fact you personally believe this yourself when you stated this: But if any of these repent and believe Jesus, then they are grafted in with all others, who are Jews inwardly by faith in the Spirit of Christ.