Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[marks]

2 Timothy 2:16-18 is the nuclear bomb that disintegrates pre-trib and is in harmony/perfect agreement with 1 Thess ch4 and 2 Thess ch2 and Rev ch 12

Since you didn't show the text I will . . .

2 Timothy 2:15-19 KJV
15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19) Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

How does this passage show Rapture timing?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Mark said: "Everything must harmonize, everything must be accounted for."
This is BEAUTIFUL
Mark, 'no one knows the Day or Hour' but we do know that before we are caught up to be with Christ, the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. I Thess Ch 4

Therefore - pre-trib rapture doctrined is completey obliterated - it is nuked to ashes.

Again, I ask the question . . . how so?

Nuked to ashes?

Whoa!

I'd need to see more of your reasoning.

When Jesus said no one would know the day or hour, did He mean the rapture of the gentile church? Please show from Scripture. It will be especially helpful if you were to quote the passages, and show the wording in them that to you declares the timing of the rapture, and how so, if it's not explicit.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

What courage does it take to deride pre-tribbers? Lot's of people do that.
Much love!

Keep in mind I have my own personal experience with Pretribbers--I could write a book on it. Not a very pleasant picture of Pretribbers.

But certainly, not all Pretribbers are hard-hearted and closed-minded. I enjoy discussing any subject with brothers and sisters with whom I disagree when they show integrity and love. I think you likely fit into that category. Sorry, but the shoe probably didn't fit with you!

 

[marks]

Keep in mind I have my own personal experience with Pretribbers--I could write a book on it. Not a very pleasant picture of Pretribbers.

But certainly, not all Pretribbers are hard-hearted and closed-minded. I enjoy discussing any subject with brothers and sisters with whom I disagree when they show integrity and love. I think you likely fit into that category. Sorry, but the shoe probably didn't fit with you!

In my experience, pre-tribbers have been the happier Christians. So we all have our own experiences.

May this one be a good one!

Much love!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

To Pre-Tribbers and Post-Tribbers,

There are flaws in both views. We need to realize that Revelation is not crystal clear. It is like a multi-dimensional, transparent sphere of events that overlap and accumulate. GOD shows us different vantage points. It appears that It is not in chronological order.
I think the key to when the rapture/resurrection occurs (which to me doesn't leave anyone behind that will be saved, except for a remnant Jewish population that will be converted and protected during the remainder of this time, the wrath - [see Romans 11]), is the "LAST TRUMPET".
I think it is #7 (Rev. 11:15). Many things happen at that trumpet sound:
* The Church is resurrected
* The mystery of God is revealed
* which is Christ's appearance
*The kingdoms of the world become the Lord's
* The dead are resurrected and judged
* WE receive rewards (that confirms that we were just ressurrected)
* The Temple in Heaven is open
* The Bowls of God's wrath are released (meaning it is not over yet).
When you examine the events of the bowls, you notice that from that time on, no one repents, they curse God and gather to war against Him.
We also notice that these events don't just happen in one day, they develop and accumulate over some time which may only be weeks or months. It takes time to get foul sores affecting All men; the sea turning to blood and life in the sea dying; for the rivers and springs to turn to blood; for the sun to scorch men with fire; the Euphrates river to dry up to allow forces from the east to cross and invade. Who? Israel, the Jews, who are still there. A great worldwide earthquake shakes the entire planet and all buildings, mountains and islands are leveled; 100 pound gallstones fall.
"And the winepress was trodden outside the city and blood came out from the winepress up tobthe horses bridles for a distance of two hundred miles."Rev. 14:20 Symbolic language that represents hundreds of millions of dead people(Armageddon), which takes Israel seven months to bury.

Much of this tribulation is putting Israel through the fire, testing them; but the Church will also be tested for a portion of this tribulation -scripture proves it.
I believe that when Jesus returns, every eye will see Him and the Jews will realize, He is the Messiah whom we have been waiting for. Oops ... they mourn. The two witnesses evangelize some of them prior to this event and I would imagine that the majority take the mark of the beast, so a remnant are saved.

But one must take note that at the 5th Seal, the multitude who just had been slain just arrived in Heaven, came "out of" the Great Tribulation, that is still going on. "They called out in a loud voice, How long Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" This is not the raptured church, these are Christians that died during the Great Tribulation. And btw, Christ is with them in Heaven - He still hasn't come down yet. "...They were told to wait a little longer until the number of their fellow servants and brothers ( being persecuted by The Antichrist) who were to be killed as they had been was completed." Rev. 6:10, 11

"In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin". Rev. 18:17
This may be that hour that God promised to keep His faithful Church from.
We go through the seals and trumpets til the last trumpet.

Yes, the Pre-tribbers can't accept the 7th Trumpet as the last because that would disprove their whole story. The Post-tribbers can't accept it either, because it also disproves their scenario, because the bowls of wrath come after.
So you both need desperately to pick some other trumpet as the last. If the 7th Trumpet is not the last, then there is an 8th. Nope, that can't be right. If it is before the series of Seven trumpets, then it can't be the last either. Is it part of the earthly trumpets blown during the Feast of Trumpets? Nope. This is not a trumpet blown by a human, it is blown by an angel? A trumpet of God, blown in Heaven. Now why would He list seven trumpets in Revelation and avoid mentioning the last trumpet, IF the 7th wasn't the last???

The Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath scenario is a more logical choice.
God promised to keep his faithful church from the hour of trial that will come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth. (Rev. 3:10) What hour is that? I think that is within the bowls of wrath. We are also not appointed to wrath, tribulation... yes.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In my experience, pre-tribbers have been the happier Christians. So we all have our own experiences.

May this one be a good one!

Much love!

Just be certain that the "joy" in these Christians isn't a false hope. Many who are excited about things going their way find themselves in total despair when things don't continue as they expect. That's why in Eccl we read that it's good to wear a grim face sometimes, so that we don't go through the ups and downs, and find ourselves exasperated.

Ecc 7.3 Frustration is better than laughter, because a sad face is good for the heart.
4.13 Better a poor but wise youth than an old but foolish king who no longer knows how to heed a warning.
9.17 7 The quiet words of the wise are more to be heeded
than the shouts of a ruler of fools.

 

[Mantis]

I just want to add that I was attending a Calvary Chapel church which preaches pre-trib rapture. I really liked the people there and felt very welcomed. I attended for probably six months and God would continually close doors for me there. Doors closed to the point of me not attending any more. I felt kind of confused as I thought God would want me at church but it was obvious to me that he didn't want me there. I think that maybe these doors closed to keep me from false hope.

 

[marks]

Just be certain that the "joy" in these Christians isn't a false hope.

I'm all about knowing what is true.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

I just want to add that I was attending a Calvary Chapel church which preaches pre-trib rapture. I really liked the people there and felt very welcomed. I attended for probably six months and God would continually close doors for me there. Doors closed to the point of me not attending any more. I felt kind of confused as I thought God would want me at church but it was obvious to me that he didn't want me there. I think that maybe these doors closed to keep me from false hope.

Again, I ask the question . . . how so?

Nuked to ashes?

Whoa!

I'd need to see more of your reasoning.

When Jesus said no one would know the day or hour, did He mean the rapture of the gentile church? Please show from Scripture. It will be especially helpful if you were to quote the passages, and show the wording in them that to you declares the timing of the rapture, and how so, if it's not explicit.

Much love!

I just want to add that I was attending a Calvary Chapel church which preaches pre-trib rapture. I really liked the people there and felt very welcomed. I attended for probably six months and God would continually close doors for me there. Doors closed to the point of me not attending any more. I felt kind of confused as I thought God would want me at church but it was obvious to me that he didn't want me there. I think that maybe these doors closed to keep me from false hope.

The doors of religion closed but not the 'Open Door' that Jesus has for you. All buildings that are called churches are in fact just buildings. They are not churches at all, just buildings masquerading as a church. The 'only' church(s) that Jesus knows are His called out ones, those who are sanctified by His Blood and Holy Spirit - the Elect of God.
This is why the Lord destroyed the Temple in Israel - it was no longer a part of the Plan of God. Jesus is the Builder of God's Temple which everyone of us, who know and love Him, are an integral and eternal part. We make up His Body the Temple of God - The True Church.
The Lord Jesus Christ today asks everyone this question - " Where is the house you will build for Me...?"
The Answer is simple - You can't, neither is God interested in any other than His Son and those whom the Father brings to the Son.
This is also why Jesus says (current) come out of her my people less you receive of her plagues.
The Lord wants and commands us to gather in His name and fellowship in the Holy Spirit and Word of God. He never said it must be in a building and He never told anyone to build a building and call it the House of God. Neither did the Apostles.
I am saying that going to a 'church' for fellowship in Him is wrong, however many churches like the Catholic church and others like it are apostate.

 

[David in NJ]

The doors of religion closed but not the 'Open Door' that Jesus has for you. All buildings that are called churches are in fact just buildings. They are not churches at all, just buildings masquerading as a church. The 'only' church(s) that Jesus knows are His called out ones, those who are sanctified by His Blood and Holy Spirit - the Elect of God.
This is why the Lord destroyed the Temple in Israel - it was no longer a part of the Plan of God. Jesus is the Builder of God's Temple which everyone of us, who know and love Him, are an integral and eternal part. We make up His Body the Temple of God - The True Church.
The Lord Jesus Christ today asks everyone this question - " Where is the house you will build for Me...?"
The Answer is simple - You can't, neither is God interested in any other than His Son and those whom the Father brings to the Son.
This is also why Jesus says (current) come out of her my people less you receive of her plagues.
The Lord wants and commands us to gather in His name and fellowship in the Holy Spirit and Word of God. He never said it must be in a building and He never told anyone to build a building and call it the House of God. Neither did the Apostles.
I am saying that going to a 'church' for fellowship in Him is wrong, however many churches like the Catholic church and others like it are apostate.

Correction - I am NOT saying that going to a 'church' for fellowship in Him is wrong. - Sorry for that

 

[David in NJ]

To Pre-Tribbers and Post-Tribbers,

There are flaws in both views. We need to realize that Revelation is not crystal clear. It is like a multi-dimensional, transparent sphere of events that overlap and accumulate. GOD shows us different vantage points. It appears that It is not in chronological order.
I think the key to when the rapture/resurrection occurs (which to me doesn't leave anyone behind that will be saved, except for a remnant Jewish population that will be converted and protected during the remainder of this time, the wrath - [see Romans 11]), is the "LAST TRUMPET".
I think it is #7 (Rev. 11:15). Many things happen at that trumpet sound:
* The Church is resurrected
* The mystery of God is revealed
* which is Christ's appearance
*The kingdoms of the world become the Lord's
* The dead are resurrected and judged
* WE receive rewards (that confirms that we were just ressurrected)
* The Temple in Heaven is open
* The Bowls of God's wrath are released (meaning it is not over yet).
When you examine the events of the bowls, you notice that from that time on, no one repents, they curse God and gather to war against Him.
We also notice that these events don't just happen in one day, they develop and accumulate over some time which may only be weeks or months. It takes time to get foul sores affecting All men; the sea turning to blood and life in the sea dying; for the rivers and springs to turn to blood; for the sun to scorch men with fire; the Euphrates river to dry up to allow forces from the east to cross and invade. Who? Israel, the Jews, who are still there. A great worldwide earthquake shakes the entire planet and all buildings, mountains and islands are leveled; 100 pound gallstones fall.
"And the winepress was trodden outside the city and blood came out from the winepress up tobthe horses bridles for a distance of two hundred miles."Rev. 14:20 Symbolic language that represents hundreds of millions of dead people(Armageddon), which takes Israel seven months to bury.

Much of this tribulation is putting Israel through the fire, testing them; but the Church will also be tested for a portion of this tribulation -scripture proves it.
I believe that when Jesus returns, every eye will see Him and the Jews will realize, He is the Messiah whom we have been waiting for. Oops ... they mourn. The two witnesses evangelize some of them prior to this event and I would imagine that the majority take the mark of the beast, so a remnant are saved.

But one must take note that at the 5th Seal, the multitude who just had been slain just arrived in Heaven, came "out of" the Great Tribulation, that is still going on. "They called out in a loud voice, How long Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" This is not the raptured church, these are Christians that died during the Great Tribulation. And btw, Christ is with them in Heaven - He still hasn't come down yet. "...They were told to wait a little longer until the number of their fellow servants and brothers ( being persecuted by The Antichrist) who were to be killed as they had been was completed." Rev. 6:10, 11

"In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin". Rev. 18:17
This may be that hour that God promised to keep His faithful Church from.
We go through the seals and trumpets til the last trumpet.

Yes, the Pre-tribbers can't accept the 7th Trumpet as the last because that would disprove their whole story. The Post-tribbers can't accept it either, because it also disproves their scenario, because the bowls of wrath come after.
So you both need desperately to pick some other trumpet as the last. If the 7th Trumpet is not the last, then there is an 8th. Nope, that can't be right. If it is before the series of Seven trumpets, then it can't be the last either. Is it part of the earthly trumpets blown during the Feast of Trumpets? Nope. This is not a trumpet blown by a human, it is blown by an angel? A trumpet of God, blown in Heaven. Now why would He list seven trumpets in Revelation and avoid mentioning the last trumpet, IF the 7th wasn't the last???

The Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath scenario is a more logical choice.
God promised to keep his faithful church from the hour of trial that will come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth. (Rev. 3:10) What hour is that? I think that is within the bowls of wrath. We are also not appointed to wrath, tribulation... yes.

Excellent points - I am only showing clear scriptures that obliterate the lie of pre-trib. You have brought out excellent scriptures and Godly logic on the topic.
Pre-Trib teachers love to add and subtract from scripture - makes them feel really smart and educated and they love the appearance of having 'special insight to scripture'. It is a protected dogma that they feel they must preach and defend. I prefer defending the Truth that Jesus and the Apostles have given to us.

 

[marks]

The doors of religion closed but not the 'Open Door' that Jesus has for you. All buildings that are called churches are in fact just buildings. They are not churches at all, just buildings masquerading as a church. The 'only' church(s) that Jesus knows are His called out ones, those who are sanctified by His Blood and Holy Spirit - the Elect of God.
This is why the Lord destroyed the Temple in Israel - it was no longer a part of the Plan of God. Jesus is the Builder of God's Temple which everyone of us, who know and love Him, are an integral and eternal part. We make up His Body the Temple of God - The True Church.
The Lord Jesus Christ today asks everyone this question - " Where is the house you will build for Me...?"
The Answer is simple - You can't, neither is God interested in any other than His Son and those whom the Father brings to the Son.
This is also why Jesus says (current) come out of her my people less you receive of her plagues.
The Lord wants and commands us to gather in His name and fellowship in the Holy Spirit and Word of God. He never said it must be in a building and He never told anyone to build a building and call it the House of God. Neither did the Apostles.
I am saying that going to a 'church' for fellowship in Him is wrong, however many churches like the Catholic church and others like it are apostate.

If this was intended as a response the post you quoted, I'm sorry, I'm not understanding your point. Can you clarify? My question was regarding Jesus' words that none would know the day or hour.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Member marks asked me "How does 2 Timothy 2:15-19 obliterate pre-trib?"

Simple and ROCK SOLID = The Dead in Christ rise FIRST - PERIOD !!! 1Thess ch 4
The Dead in Christ ( not everyone who is dead - ONLY the Dead in Christ ) Rise First. The Word of God is very clear on this. It occurs at the Last Trump and this Trumpet is not blown until AFTER the 'Man of Sin is revealed' - thus Paul wrote 2 Thess ch 2

 

[David in NJ]

Apostle Paul wrote this concerning the Second Coming of Christ and the Rapture of the Church ( they are not separate events as the false pre-trib doctrine teaches ). Paul ( and Jesus) teaches they are one and the same event - 1 Thess ch4, 2 Thess ch 2, 2 Timothy 2:15 -19, Matt 24:29-31

Boom - Pre-trip deception melts lie the wicked witch of Oz when the water hits her.
Recieve the cleansing Water of the Word of God and it will wash away the lies, error and confusion. "God is not the author of confusion."

 

[David in NJ]

If this was intended as a response the post you quoted, I'm sorry, I'm not understanding your point. Can you clarify? My question was regarding Jesus' words that none would know the day or hour.

Much love!

If Jesus said "the Day and Hour knows no man, not even the Son but my Father only" = there is no clarification on that and to try and make one would be silly and could devolve into error just as many have done trying to predict the Second Coming. If I were to say anything about that it would only be what The Lord and the Apostles have already told us - period.
Jesus also said " Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days He will send His angels to gather us (Rapture)." Matthew 24:29-31
Do you believe what Jesus said???
Do you believe this - " For a man is not measured by the things he owns"
Did Jesus or any of the Apostles say - no tribulation for you?
Why is there no statement from the Lord (zero, none) to John in the Book of Revelations about a supposed pre-trib rapture? In fact the Lord shows us (today - you, me, us) that instead of a false rapture we must face the wrath of satan and persecution for our Witness of Truth and Rejection of the Mark of the Beast.
Do you know who the Two Witnesses are? Why are they put to death by the Beast instead of being raptured first? Were they not worthy "to escape all these things" as Jesus told us to pray about?
Did Jesus have some deeper meaning about what He meant by 'escape'? Coud it be that we 'escape' temptation not through deliverence from harm but from Faith that empowers us to "walk through the valley of death" and to "not love our lives unto death" ???

 

[friend of]

I believe in a pretrib rapture. This video is why

 

[David in NJ]

Again, you 'choose' to believe a preacher over the Word of God. This preacher is in error and adds words to Paul that Paul did not say - but believe him and reject the very words of the Lord in Matt 24:29 as well as the Apostle Paul.
Such is the error of religion dogma - defend it with your life

 

[friend of]

Again, you 'choose' to believe a preacher over the Word of God. This preacher is in error and adds words to Paul that Paul did not say - but believe him and reject the very words of the Lord in Matt 24:29 as well as the Apostle Paul.
Such is the error of religion dogma - defend it with your life

You haven't even watched the video, so you can't say that he isn't using scripture properly. Watch the video, then we'll talk.

 

[David in NJ]

I believe in a pretrib rapture. This video is why

The Pastor in the video rejects the teachings of Paul and inserts his own opinion.
Go back and read chapter 1 of 1 Thessalonians

 

[David in NJ]

You haven't even watched the video, so you can't say that he isn't using scripture properly. Watch the video, then we'll talk.

The man in the video has rejected the teachings of Paul and inserted his own opinion.
Go back and read carefully, with an open heart mind and soul to Chapter 1 of 1 Thessalonians.