Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[atpollard]

And contrary to what some think, accept, then throw away.

To cease smoking (get saved) is the easiest thing I ever did. I ought to know because I’ve done it a thousand times.​

That is NOT the Reformed view of salvation, but it appears to fit the “put it on and take it off at human whim” model of being “born from above” (John 3:3), “transformed” (Romans 12:2, 2 Corinthians 3:18) and “a new creation” (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15).

[John 10:28-29 NIV]

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

• NO ONE means NO ONE … in both English and Greek.

 

[Episkopos]

You say the "good work" was MEN's work ...

If every work was done for us and instead of us then there would be no reason for us to have two hands and a heartbeat. You need to let go your dogmatism and see that we are to be cooperating with God in everything we do. Otherwise we would be either doing things for ourselves and then doing things for God...as your own religious understanding limits you to.

God indeed can work through us. But if He doesn't always do EVERYTHING through us, we are still left with bearing the responsibility for our own actions.

Is it any wonder that the church of today is so immature? So much bad witness leading to so much mockery in the world.

We will all be judged for EVERYTHING we have done. The difference for a believer in Christ is that his works are perfectly right because they have been wrought in Christ. But the very same hypocrisy that claims that it is Jesus that does the works, then defend their right to still be sinners (although these are overlooked of course) Such hypocrisy!

So then most believers will ONLY ever know a sinful life even if they claim falsely to be under God's righteousness. God's righteousness is NOT as filthy rags.

The twistings of modern dogmatism fully negate the resurrection life as our victory over sin. As Jesus said to the Pharisees."your traditions have made the word (and grace power) of God to be of none effect.

 

[MatthewG]

The only work Jesus Christ said we had to do was to believe on God whom sent the Lord Yeshua.

Did you know the works you do are actually coming from the spirit of Christ with-in you and not you yourself?

 

[amadeus]

The only work Jesus Christ said we had to do was to believe on God whom sent the Lord Yeshua.

If then the devils believe on God are they also then in the congregation of the saved?

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19

Did you know the works you do are actually coming from the spirit of Christ with-in you and not you yourself?

The works we do come from the Spirit of Christ when the Spirit is in us AND we are Not quenching the Spirit:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

 

[Episkopos]

The only work Jesus Christ said we had to do was to believe on God whom sent the Lord Yeshua.

No. You are making yourself out to be God. It says, the work of God (not us) is to believe into Christ. No one can place themselves in Christ. But your way of seeing turns the Bible on its head. You cannot believe yourself into Christ. You can indeed be religious and CLAIM to belong to Christ. But only God can translate you into a walk that is the same as Christ and His apostles. But of course you won't believe that is possible, even if God is the One that can do it. No, you would limit God to what you can do in the power of the flesh.

Do you see how modern evangelicalism is a twisting of the truth that satisfies the wrong part of us?

Did you know the works you do are actually coming from the spirit of Christ with-in you and not you yourself?

That is only true if you have ceased from sin by abiding in Christ. In Him is NO sin. So if you sin, is that Jesus sinning through you?

 

[atpollard]

If every work was done for us and instead of us then there would be no reason for us to have two hands and a heartbeat. You need to let go your dogmatism and see that we are to be cooperating with God in everything we do. Otherwise we would be either doing things for ourselves and then doing things for God...as your own religious understanding limits you to.

God indeed can work through us. But if He doesn't always do EVERYTHING through us, we are still left with bearing the responsibility for our own actions.

Is it any wonder that the church of today is so immature? So much bad witness leading to so much mockery in the world.

We will all be judged for EVERYTHING we have done. The difference for a believer in Christ is that his works are perfectly right because they have been wrought in Christ. But the very same hypocrisy that claims that it is Jesus that does the works, then defend their right to still be sinners (although these are overlooked of course) Such hypocrisy!

So then most believers will ONLY ever know a sinful life even if they claim falsely to be under God's righteousness. God's righteousness is NOT as filthy rags.

The twistings of modern dogmatism fully negate the resurrection life as our victory over sin. As Jesus said to the Pharisees."your traditions have made the word (and grace power) of God to be of none effect.

Who is this person?
I have never met them.

I know many people that claim to “be saved” and claim to “know God” and claim to “have faith” yet I could not testify to those facts in a court of law … I saw NOTHING that I could offer testimony to support THEIR claims. I have also met people that claim to be Julius Caesar reincarnated (a claim I also cannot offer any testimony in support of). As the old saying goes, sleeping in your garage does not make you a car … no matter what you claim.

I have also met people broken and transformed by God. Of the change in their life and thoughts and disposition, I can give testimony in court. I can speak of their deeds (past and present). I can speak of their attitude.

So where are these people that have saving faith and a hedonistic lifestyle. I only hear them spoken of by people that want to convince me that My GOD cannot complete what He started or do what He promised unless I work really hard to be … a good Jew (follow the LAWS).

You seem to have a SOLUTION in desperate search for a PROBLEM to apply it to. As Corrie Ten Boon said … “God does as He pleases, and He does it right well.”

 

[MatthewG]

I do not believe I am a god.

though I use to think I was a god.

But not anymore.

there is a difference between the flesh and the spirit.

Take care

 

[MatthewG]

@amadeus I do not believe demons, and the devil is still around anymore but if you do that is cool with me: no hate

 

[Enoch111]

@amadeus I do not believe demons, and the devil is still around anymore but if you do that is cool with me: no hate

So you simply pick and choose what to believe and what to ignore? How do you think that's going to work out? If Satan, demons, and evil angels are not around anymore where do you think they slunk off?

 

[MatthewG]

In the lake of fire.

 

[Gregory]

The 150 different translations of the bible make it very near to impossible to determine what is the real true path to being saved. The 300 different Christian churches declare different paths to being saved and confirm the confusion from the bibles.

There are doctrines of all the colors of the rainbow ranging from God does everything, to, we do everything. We are saved the minute we confess Jesus and will remained saved no matter what we do the rest of our lives, to, we must do good works and endure to the end and then when we have proven ourselves to be worthy we are saved by the grace of God.

The 17 pages of this OP testifies of this confusion.

Which one of you on this OP is correct?

 

[robert derrick]

And contrary to what some think, accept, then throw away.

If we throw away the gift, He casts away us.

 

[robert derrick]

A troll complains that you will not answer their questions, and then immediately responds to your answer by calling you a liar from 300 posts earlier.

Trolls hide under broken bridges when the sword chases him off.

 

[robert derrick]

Ad hominem (Attacking the person)

Ad nauseum (Boring the person)

 

[robert derrick]

The 150 different translations of the bible make it very near to impossible to determine what is the real true path to being saved. The 300 different Christian churches declare different paths to being saved and confirm the confusion from the bibles.

There are doctrines of all the colors of the rainbow ranging from God does everything, to, we do everything. We are saved the minute we confess Jesus and will remained saved no matter what we do the rest of our lives, to, we must do good works and endure to the end and then when we have proven ourselves to be worthy we are saved by the grace of God.

The 17 pages of this OP testifies of this confusion.

Which one of you on this OP is correct?

Which one of you on this OP is correct?

I am of course! I'm always right. And if someone says I'm not, then they are obviously wrong. So, read what I write, agree, and be no more confused. Simple.

Translations do contradict each other, and so I believe in choosing one to be our own final authority on doctrine. Otherwise, we tend to shop around for what we like, until we think we've found it.

The greatest benefit to these disputes are challenges to take a stand on Scripture. If we are honest about it, then we will be confronted with Scripture that causes our beliefs to change for the better. That in itself is good for living in Christ.

How can we continue to do the truth, if we are not being guided into all truth?

There is good disputing in the Scriptures, and then there is vain disputes of opinion without Scripture:

Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. (Acts 17)

 

[robert derrick]

I still cannot get past all the warnings in the New Testament directly aimed at Christians (Believers). Deceptions, False Teachers, False Prophets. If one repented, confessed his sins and as a new Believer were given eternal security why all the warnings? It's like being given waterproof boots but told to be careful walking in the water. I also believe exactly as the scriptures tell us. That God so loved the WORLD. That God desires all men to be saved. We are saved by faith alone by God's Grace. A gift, a gift that you can keep or throw away or never accept.

We shouldn't try to get past them, nor ignore them.

If I believed I were specially chosen to be prepared for salvation by God, while He does not choose to do so with others that hear His Word, then I would believe all such warnings are for others, who may think they are sheep of the Shepherd, but really aren't.

The gospel is given to every one repeatedly, but magic seed that grows Jack's bean stalk to the heavens is planted when God says the soil is ready

If I were a prepicked stalk born of magic seed, then warnings in Scripture against falling from grace are only for them that know not grace, and are falling even further away from grace.

Afterall, I wouldn't be able to imagine how someone could actually fall from grace, as in actually fall from grace itself. No, I would simply go to the Greek to find a way to make Scripture say 'fall away from grace'. It would be a lateral move of a fall, not vertical.

Like the lateral move from unsaved to son of perdition. Judas didn't fall vertically, since I couldn't imagine such a thing. No, he just really never was a believer in Christ. The Lord only chose him as a devil to be one of His apostles, so that he would betray Him, so that he could go to the cross. Jesus needed a devil in His ministry to help in salvation.

 

[robert derrick]

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

So long as we guard our hearts and continue in the faith and Word of Jesus only, then we are able to keep ourselves, so that the wicked one touches us not (1 John 5:18)

But if we give heed to false teachers, then the wolf catches us for to steal and to kill and to destroy.

So, Scripture is telling us, we cannot blame others, if we fall away from the faith of Jesus, to return to past sins, we had clean escaped from by grace.

But, we do have a more sure word of promise, in that we are born of the Spirit and the Word in our hearts, so that if we are careful to believe Scripture only, and to maintain good works, and to leave behind dead works repented of, then we cannot be plucked out of the hand of the Lord, whom we love, and who's hand we keep hold of.

We are not standing in the Jesus' hand, but we are to hold His hand fast with both ours: the hand of faith and the hand of good works by faith.

Predestined to unconditional security is a devil's doctrine used to destroy that which Christ had saved, because by definition no warning to abide and continue and hold fast is needed. So that even if we were to be slapping His hand away to wallow in the mire, He would still be grabbing our hand firmly to yank us back again, like an unconditionally loving mother with a rebellious and spoiled brat.

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus I do not believe demons, and the devil is still around anymore but if you do that is cool with me: no hate

Some may call it devil or demon, and others may identify it as the left hand of God or the "old man of me" or "my carnal ways"... but it is certainly still an enemy that needs to be overcome if we are still tempted and if we ever still yield to temptation and sin. Jesus was an overcomer and we need to be overcomers! What is it that needs to be overcome? What is the power of God within supposed to be doing?

Is it still day or has the night already arrived?

 

[robert derrick]

The doctrine of God first does all the preparing of the ground of our soul, before He will ever plant the seed, so that we will automatically be saved, when we hear His Word, is false.

1. By the parable of the sower, we know that whensoever we hear the Word and Jesus, that His seed is sown in the heart, and it is done so by grace.

2. Scripture does not speak of repeated sowing, until the ground is properly prepared by God. The seed is sown once and for all, and the ground we have, adn what we do with it, will determine the result, whether unto salvation or perdition.

3. We are to prepare our hearts. We do the watering and the tilling of the ground, and if we prepare our hearts, then God is faithful to save us and give the increase by grace.

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. (Is 40)

4. And so we are also to keep ourselves prepared unto the Lord, to keep our ground good for increase of God, to keep ourselves from sin of the devil, that our souls be not destroyed, and the ground bringing up only thorns and briers for burning:

If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. (2 Tim 2)

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. (Luke 12)

5. And even if we do turn away for a season, we can yet still return to the Lord, and prepare our hearts to renew faith again:

If ye do return unto the LORD with all your hearts, then put away the strange gods and Ashtaroth from among you, and prepare your hearts unto the LORD, and serve him only. (1 Sam 7)

6. But if we continue in sin wilfully and openly without shame, crucifying the Son of God afresh before all, then there can be no return, and it is impossible to renew repentance again. (Heb 6)

So, we believe His Word, pray in faith, turn from wicked works, confess sin to be forgiven if we sin, and do good by faith, whensoever it is at hand to do so, and fulfill the royal law of loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Against such, there is no law, nor can the devil touch us: if we do so.

 

[Gregory]

I still cannot get past all the warnings in the New Testament directly aimed at Christians (Believers). Deceptions, False Teachers, False Prophets. If one repented, confessed his sins and as a new Believer were given eternal security why all the warnings? It's like being given waterproof boots but told to be careful walking in the water. I also believe exactly as the scriptures tell us. That God so loved the WORLD. That God desires all men to be saved. We are saved by faith alone by God's Grace. A gift, a gift that you can keep or throw away or never accept.

I agree with you. The bible should be a short book that says this is how you are saved in the Kingdom of God.

But if OSAS was the way, why tell us we must be good and warn us of all the pitfalls we may fall into. If Jesus does it all, why all the sermons by Paul to endure to the end etc., etc., etc.