Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[David in NJ]

Thessalonians Chapter 1 : Paul writes to the Body of Christ in Thessolonica to give comfort and hope - WHY ???

Because they were experiencing great persecution and tribulation - get it!
They were being put to death because of their faith in Jesus - get it!

When Paul gets to chapter 4 he again comforts them (and us) that IF, again IF, we remain alive unto the coming of the Lord, He will take us up to Him (Rapture) but NOT before the resurrection - "at the Last Trump the dead in Christ will rise FIRST, then we who are alive at His Coming will be caught up (Raptured) to forever be with Christ. Comfort one another with these words"
No greater comfort than to know that your family/friends who were put to death for their faith in Jesus will be resurrected and united with us when the Lord returns.

 

[marks]

Jesus also said " Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days He will send His angels to gather us (Rapture)." Matthew 24:29-31
Do you believe what Jesus said???

I do believe Jesus, in fact. Are you thinking I don't? Many associate the "gathering of the elect", or, "chosen" in Matthew 24 with the rapture of the church.

Paul wrote that the church was a mystery revealed through himself. Were Jesus to have been teaching regarding the church, that would be contrary to this being a mystery. So there's that.

Jesus prophesied that the elect, or, the chosen would be gathered, and that later the nations would be gathered to be judged.

The Jews knew their identification as God's chosen nation out of all the other nations. So as Jesus is saying, the chosen, or, elect, will be gathered, then the nations will be gathered, they would know He is indicating them, Israel, the chosen, and then gentile nations, all others.

Joel 3 is one place that prophesies this gathering of the nations for judgment, to happen after Israel is regathered.

Yes it's true that "elect" is used for Christians later in the New Testament, it would be about 30 years or so before that usage is given concerning the church. When Jesus gave this prophecy, there is only one way they would have understood it, and this is that way. The gathering of Israel back to their land, prophesied over and over in the Prophets, and the gathering of the remaining nations to be judged, also prophesied in the Prophets.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Do you believe this - " For a man is not measured by the things he owns"
Did Jesus or any of the Apostles say - no tribulation for you?

Who does not experience tribulation? Do you discount the suffering of those being skinned alive because they are Christians? Locked in metal shipping containers in the desert left to roast to death?

For everyone, there is a time of exit from this world. God determines how and when.

Many seemingly don't suffer at all, and many suffer horrifically. And for some, suffering, affliction, comes from the hands of others, for some it comes in different ways. Again, according to how God determines.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why is there no statement from the Lord (zero, none) to John in the Book of Revelations about a supposed pre-trib rapture?

Because it is not the topic of the Book, however, it is consistent with the pre-trib rapture.

Much love!

 

[marks]

In fact the Lord shows us (today - you, me, us) that instead of a false rapture we must face the wrath of satan and persecution for our Witness of Truth and Rejection of the Mark of the Beast.

Satan, like a lion, stalks about, looking for someone to eat. What did you have in mind?

Persecution, again, that's happening already. No one is immune from persecution, or tribulation, it's all promised. Not just to 'one final generation', but to all God's people.

The Mark of the Beast . . . that only forces the answer each of us must already give in our lives. Whom will we serve? If we choose wrongly, we choose death. And in each case, whether now or at that time, those who choose wrongly will think they are choosing life.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Do you know who the Two Witnesses are? Why are they put to death by the Beast instead of being raptured first? Were they not worthy "to escape all these things" as Jesus told us to pray about?

Who they are? All I've ever hear is speculation, but I'm interested in your thoughts. I don't see a clear identification in Scripture. Simply God's two witnesses who prophesy in Jerusalem.

Why are they put to death instead of being raptured? Because they were not "in Christ" at the time of the rapture. There will also be 144,000 other Jews, 12,000 from each of 12 tribes, who will be seal with the seal of God at that time.

Regarding being worthy to escape all these things, and to stand before the Son of Man, I believe that is speaking to the Jews who will be alive in that day, that they will avoid the sufferings and death, and be present before Jesus when He returns to the earth. This will be possible if they heed Jesus' warning and flee to the wilderness when the see the abomination of desolation. They will there be nourished, safe.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Did Jesus have some deeper meaning about what He meant by 'escape'? Coud it be that we 'escape' temptation not through deliverence from harm but from Faith that empowers us to "walk through the valley of death" and to "not love our lives unto death" ???

The word there is literally to flee. This is not about a rapture. I think Jesus said something about the one who didn't hate their own life not being worthy of Him.

Something which I think we do well to understand within ourselves is how much do we cherish Jesus compared to the things of this life, of this world? Are we as happy to receive from His hand what we call good as what we call bad?

1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

This "way to escape", I understand this word was used in ship navigation for a harbor protected from the storm. In the grammar of the passage, this is a particular safe haven. Each tribulation or affliction or enticement carries with it it's own desired outcome. Temptations in the New Testement are the same as Tests. The same word is used for both. You could think of it as a test if you pass, or a temptation if you sin.

Contrary circumstances are tests for us to either choose rightly, and become more firmly established in our faith, and also actively participate in God . As we participate in His work, we become more like Him. Beholding in a mirror the Glory of the Lord, we are being transformed into that Image.

Just some thoughts on temptations there . . .

Much love!

 

[rockytopva]

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelations 16:15
And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:36-40

Christ comes as a thief... Unannounced! Jesus Christ could come today! Be ready and prepared and you will have nothing to worry about!

 

[David in NJ]

The word there is literally to flee. This is not about a rapture. I think Jesus said something about the one who didn't hate their own life not being worthy of Him.

Something which I think we do well to understand within ourselves is how much do we cherish Jesus compared to the things of this life, of this world? Are we as happy to receive from His hand what we call good as what we call bad?

1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

This "way to escape", I understand this word was used in ship navigation for a harbor protected from the storm. In the grammar of the passage, this is a particular safe haven. Each tribulation or affliction or enticement carries with it it's own desired outcome. Temptations in the New Testement are the same as Tests. The same word is used for both. You could think of it as a test if you pass, or a temptation if you sin.

Contrary circumstances are tests for us to either choose rightly, and become more firmly established in our faith, and also actively participate in God . As we participate in His work, we become more like Him. Beholding in a mirror the Glory of the Lord, we are being transformed into that Image.

Just some thoughts on temptations there . . .

Much love!

Thank you the encouraging and uplifting insight - good food!!!!!!!!!!

 

[marks]

this Trumpet is not blown until AFTER the 'Man of Sin is revealed' - thus Paul wrote 2 Thess ch 2

Would you mind connecting the dots on this one? I don't trumpets mentioned in the passage.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Who they are? All I've ever hear is speculation, but I'm interested in your thoughts. I don't see a clear identification in Scripture. Simply God's two witnesses who prophesy in Jerusalem.

Why are they put to death instead of being raptured? Because they were not "in Christ" at the time of the rapture. There will also be 144,000 other Jews, 12,000 from each of 12 tribes, who will be seal with the seal of God at that time.

Regarding being worthy to escape all these things, and to stand before the Son of Man, I believe that is speaking to the Jews who will be alive in that day, that they will avoid the sufferings and death, and be present before Jesus when He returns to the earth. This will be possible if they heed Jesus' warning and flee to the wilderness when the see the abomination of desolation. They will there be nourished, safe.

Much love!

God has already told us who the Two Witnesses are in His Word. Yes, the Word has cleary identified them - not me or some religious teaching but from the Holy Scripture itself. I will not identify them since God's Word has already done so and so as not to open up the religious attacks.
"Because they were not in Christ at the time of the rapture" - lol = they couldn't be His witnesses if they were not in Christ.....wow

 

[David in NJ]

Would you mind connecting the dots on this one? I don't trumpets mentioned in the passage.

Much love!

I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15

 

[CharismaticLady]

I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.

No, just because belief in a pre-trib rapture is unfounded, it doesn't cause a person to willfully commit sin or become apathetic toward sin such as "the blood of Jesus cleanses us from past, present and future sins, which are the tell-tale signs of a doctrine of demons. Sin separates us from God, and demons don't want you to believe that, but the opposite. Here is an example of belief in a doctrine of demons. Martin Luther is quoted to say in a letter to a friend,

"No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard, for you are quite a sinner."

 

[Mantis]

No, just because belief in a pre-trib rapture is unfounded, it doesn't cause a person to willfully commit sin or become apathetic toward sin such as "the blood of Jesus cleanses us from past, present and future sins, which are the tell-tale signs of a doctrine of demons. Sin separates us from God, and demons don't want you to believe that, but the opposite. Here is an example of belief in a doctrine of demons. Martin Luther is quoted to say in a letter to a friend,

"No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard, for you are quite a sinner."

Wow that's interesting. I have heard preachers preach Jesus has paid for sins that we will yet to commit. I never thought it to be false since we do sin though not willfully.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Wow that's interesting. I have heard preachers preach Jesus has paid for sins that we will yet to commit. I never thought it to be false since we do sin though not willfully.

It is a VERY common teaching that has infected most of Protestantism. But the truth is in Scripture. For instance 2 Peter 1:9 clearly limits to past sins. Read the context of 2-11. 1 John 3 is about willful sins of lawlessness. They are sins unto death 1 John 5:16-17. Trespasses unwittingly committed Leviticus 5:15 are not unto death. And as we forgive others their trespasses against us, our own trespasses are forgiven, and I believe those are the only sins Jesus is our Advocate for. He is not our Advocate for willful sins of lawlessness. Hebrews 10:26-31. When we are born again, our new nature created by the Holy Spirit of Christ does not commit willful sins of lawlessness, but we are still growing in the fruit of the Spirit and are being pruned to perfection 2 Peter 1:5-7

 

[marks]

I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15

Naming a couple of chapters doesn't illuminate me on your ideas, I'm sorry. You don't have to reply of course.

Much love!

 

[marks]

God has already told us who the Two Witnesses are in His Word. Yes, the Word has cleary identified them - not me or some religious teaching but from the Holy Scripture itself. I will not identify them since God's Word has already done so and so as not to open up the religious attacks.
"Because they were not in Christ at the time of the rapture" - lol = they couldn't be His witnesses if they were not in Christ.....wow

Ah. There's an answer but you aren't saying, just, I'm wrong, because you know.

OK.

It's been fun up to now.

Much love!

 

[friend of]

Because they were experiencing great persecution and tribulation - get it!
They were being put to death because of their faith in Jesus - get it!

Yes. In the past many Christians were put to death for their faith. So what? That verse doesn't talk about the future.

Paul gets to chapter 4 he again comforts them (and us) that IF, again IF, we remain alive unto the coming of the Lord, He will take us up to Him (Rapture) but NOT before the resurrection - "at the Last Trump the dead in Christ will rise FIRST, then we who are alive at His Coming will be caught up (Raptured) to forever be with Christ. Comfort one another with these words

The dead rise first. Then those who are alive and remain are then caught up. It happens immediately after the dead in Christ rise.

 

[friend of]

If the blood of Christ doesn't cleanse future sins then is that because it is ineffective and in inefficacious? That's essentially what your saying. That the sacrifice of Christ, being infinite and existing outside of time, is insufficient to cover our sins.

 

[David in NJ]

No, just because belief in a pre-trib rapture is unfounded, it doesn't cause a person to willfully commit sin or become apathetic toward sin such as "the blood of Jesus cleanses us from past, present and future sins, which are the tell-tale signs of a doctrine of demons. Sin separates us from God, and demons don't want you to believe that, but the opposite. Here is an example of belief in a doctrine of demons. Martin Luther is quoted to say in a letter to a friend,

"No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard, for you are quite a sinner."

I say AMEN to that Great Love of Christ whose Blood cleanses us from all sin - HE remains Faithful even when our faith fails!!!!