Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[David in NJ]

I'm reading a book right now, written a couple of years ago by two well-seasoned scholars. They had both been Pretrib early in their Christian lives, but as students of the Scriptures could not remain Pretrib. The authors say that there is no teaching in the Scriptures that say Jesus can come today. "Not Afraid of the Antichrist," by Michael L. Brown and Craig S. Keener.

I can certify that. Nowhere did Jesus say he would come before the last day of the age. Nowhere did he say he could come "at any time." His sense of the imminence of the Kingdom had to do with the tension man has in getting ready for eternal judgment and nothing to do with any expectation that Christ could return at any time.

In fact, Jesus made it clear that we are *not* to expect any secret coming before his appearance from heaven, but only to always be ready for judgment by living righteous lives. In other words, we're to be righteous all the time, and not because Christ might suddenly come today and catch us doing something wrong!

Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

If you have a biblical statement that says Christ can come today, please present it. Otherwise, don't say such unbiblical things!

Randy, thank you for the encouragement.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, thank you for the encouragement.

How's this for encouragement, brother? Back in the late 70s I wrote a letter to renowned cult expert Walter Martin, asking him to state clearly his Postrib views--I had heard he was Postrib. Not long afterwards he released a cassette tape on the subject, confirming his Postrib position. He did not consider the subject central in theology, but he did affirm that Postrib is biblical.

Renowned Christian broadcaster and evangelist Pat Robertson is also Postrib. Unfortunately, Pretrib mixes truth with material that appeals to man--the idea that we can do something to avoid tribulation. That is what man wants, to have control of his own destiny, instead of trusting in God and letting Him set the agenda. Being something that appeals to man's desire for control, Pretrib sold well in some parts of the West. But the truth will prevail among those who submit to the will of God.

There are indeed things we can do to prepare for trouble. But it isn't in our control to avoid trials that the Lord has designed for us. The best thing we can do to prepare is to discipline ourselves in godly living. Then we will always be prepared.

 

[David in NJ]

Naming a couple of chapters doesn't illuminate me on your ideas, I'm sorry. You don't have to reply of course.

Much love!

If you reject the CLEAR passages of scripture and are UNWILLING to bow the knee of pride at the feet of Jesus and His Word - then you have a idol in your heart that you refuse to pull down.
You admit you cannot see - that is your decision - it is not truth but your desire to believe something you were told to believe. Pre-Tribrs are mind controlled to only see in the scriptures what they were told to see.
My Bible says the same as yours - "Do not add to God's Word or take away from it"
The scriptures I have posted on this issue completely obliterate the lie of pre-trib.
It is now your choice and free will to desire the truth or the lie.
Religion is one of the most powerful enemies to overcome.

If you cannot see or understand what is said here = 2 Timothy 2:15-19 , you will not understand how pre-trib is a lie.

My love for the Body of Christ is to show them the TRUTH from Sola Scritura - no religion, no popularity contests, no PhDs (laughable), no monetary gain.

 

[David in NJ]

How's this for encouragement, brother? Back in the late 70s I wrote a letter to renowned cult expert Walter Martin, asking him to state clearly his Postrib views--I had heard he was Postrib. Not long afterwards he released a cassette tape on the subject, confirming his Postrib position. He did not consider the subject central in theology, but he did affirm that Postrib is biblical.

Renowned Christian broadcaster and evangelist Pat Robertson is also Postrib. Unfortunately, Pretrib mixes truth with material that appeals to man--the idea that we can do something to avoid tribulation. That is what man wants, to have control of his own destiny, instead of trusting in God and letting Him set the agenda. Being something that appeals to man's desire for control, Pretrib sold well in some parts of the West. But the truth will prevail among those who submit to the will of God.

There are indeed things we can do to prepare for trouble. But it isn't in our control to avoid trials that the Lord has designed for us. The best thing we can do to prepare is to discipline ourselves in godly living. Then we will always be prepared.

AMEN AMEN AMEN

 

[David in NJ]

How am I deriding you? I cannot tolerate willful religion that seeks to rob, blind and divide the Body of Christ.
I have not derided you - I am helping you and you perceive it as an offense.
You have been Born-Again by the Blood of Christ and the regeneration of His Holy Spirit - YES or No?
If YES, You and I cannot be separated from Christ - PERIOD
We belong to Him and nothing can pluck us from Him - AMEN
If we belong to Him then we belong to each other as His Members in His Body - AMEN - We belong to each other in Christ, in Love, in the Holy Spirit, in the Rapture, in Tribulation, in Persecution, in Prosperity, in Life, in Death, in ETERNITY with Christ now and when He Returns, in the Resurrection, in the Thousand Year Reign with Christ, in New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven, in the New Heavens and Earth for all Eternity - AMEN
God's desire for all of us in the Body is to know Christ and to love one another for by our love for one another the world will know God has sent His Son.
Rejecting scriptures that expose a lie does not come from God and that is where the enemy has a foothold.

 

[David in NJ]

Why, oh why, would the Thessalonian Christians be troubled regarding their being gathered to Jesus, because someone was saying the Day of Christ had arrived?

Much love!

READ 1 Thessalonians Chapter 1 - Please READ it - that is your foundation of Truth to understanding that which pertains to Christ's Return and the Rapture - our gathering together to Him - our being caught up to Him - AMEN AMEN AMEN

 

[David in NJ]

Why do you reply without giving an answer?

I don't expect there to be a reasonable answer, for those who oppose pre-trib timing. But you could at least try!



It could be more interesting!

Should I suggest you give a thought towards reading chapter 2? Or just assume that you probably have?

Much love!

You cannot get to Ch 2 wiithout first recieving, digesting and rejoicing Ch1.
What is the opening scene presented to us from Ch 1

 

[marks]

You cannot get to Ch 2 wiithout first recieving, digesting and rejoicing Ch1.
What is the opening scene presented to us from Ch 1

It's not hard to answer. You could. I can. For whatever reason you won't and I'm not surprised.

The thing is . . . I've studied this . . . debated it . . . I can debate the opposing views better than most I know who hold them. And I can go straight to the questions that you cannot answer. Unless you are pre-trib.

I'll ask those questions, and you will deflect, or you will tell me that while the words say that, SOMEHOW you just KNOW they mean something different.

I'm going to hold to the words written, you will hold to your view, and no one will have benefited.

So rather than go down that whole long road that repeats itself over and over, I ask the simple questions, and see what your answer is. I've seen.

If someone were to actually want to have an intelligent and reasonable debate, with respect for others and their views, great! Is there someone?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

What is the opening scene, the issue being presented to us today by looking through the life of the Christians in Thessolanica that the Apostle Paul addresses?

 

[marks]

Religion is one of the most powerful enemies to overcome.

So Very True!

People who see themselves as a part of their salvation can have a difficult time letting go of that. It addresses deeply rooted felt needs for affirmation, which, if not correctly addressed, will permeate through much of what we think and do.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What is the opening scene, the issue being presented to us today by looking through the life of the Christians in Thessolanica that the Apostle Paul addresses?

Are you asking me to paint the picture you see in your mind?

What saith the Scriptures, and what does that mean to you?

A much simpler question . . . why would they be troubled concerning being gathered to Jesus by someone saying the Day of Christ had arrived?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

It's not hard to answer. You could. I can. For whatever reason you won't and I'm not surprised.

The thing is . . . I've studied this . . . debated it . . . I can debate the opposing views better than most I know who hold them. And I can go straight to the questions that you cannot answer. Unless you are pre-trib.

I'll ask those questions, and you will deflect, or you will tell me that while the words say that, SOMEHOW you just KNOW they mean something different.

I'm going to hold to the words written, you will hold to your view, and no one will have benefited.

So rather than go down that whole long road that repeats itself over and over, I ask the simple questions, and see what your answer is. I've seen.

If someone were to actually want to have an intelligent and reasonable debate, with respect for others and their views, great! Is there someone?

Much love!

I have answered your questions - you refuse to accept the answers from scripture - where are the scriptures that CLEARLY show pre-trib rapture? They do not exist in the Bible - it is by adding too scripture what does not cleary state. Meanwhile all scripture is for our edification sothat the man of God may be thoroughly equipped.
God wants us to know the truth, the scriptures not run from them.

 

[David in NJ]

In my experience with pre-trib doctrine those who cling to it do so without examination of all scriptures that clearly oppose it. They cling to Pastors, Books, Churches and the Majority as justification and security.
After all - why would so many Christians and 'Renown' Pastors and Bible Universities and Bible 'Scholars' and Doctorates of Divinity (lol) and Churches believe in it if it were not true???

 

[marks]

I have answered your questions - you refuse to accept the answers from scripture -

Not true. You've not given an answer. So I guess you want it to seem like you have though you have not.

It's a simple question.

marks said: ↑

Why, oh why, would the Thessalonian Christians be troubled regarding their being gathered to Jesus, because someone was saying the Day of Christ had arrived?

Much love!

I told you I could answer, and it is simple. Because they were expecting to be gathered to Jesus before that Day. What other reason could there be?

Did you want to offer a different answer?

Much love!

 

[marks]

In my experience with pre-trib doctrine those who cling to it do so without examination of all scriptures that clearly oppose it. They cling to Pastors, Books, Churches and the Majority as justification and security.

You have no idea about me.

I've studied this inside out for decades. Really, I'd hazard a guess I can argue your view better than you can. I've found that to be true in many cases.

Much love!

 

[marks]

God wants us to know the truth, the scriptures not run from them.

There's something to take to heart! When you deflect and avoid discussion, isn't that like running from truth?

Much love!

 

[marks]

If you can go back and give reasoned and reasonable replys to my posts, great, otherwise, I'm just not too interested in continuing this.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

The difference between pre-trib and the truth is that pre-tribrs hold to a 'view' - the rest of us hold to the Scriptures that CLEARLY say 'No'.
Matt 24:29-31
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days..... the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven.......and He will send His angels with the a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another."

When??? Immediately AFTER the Tribulation
REPENT

 

[David in NJ]

There's something to take to heart! When you deflect and avoid discussion, isn't that like running from truth?

Much love!

You have devolved into religious argument and are purposely avoiding scriptural analysis from a pure heart.

 

[David in NJ]

Here, once again, isirrefutable proof that obliterates the pre-trib rapture lie.
Matt 24:29-31
1 Thessalonians ch 1
1 Thess ch 4
2 Timothy 2:14-19
2 Thess ch 2
Daniel 7:25 and Revelations ch 6 and ch 13 and ch 16
1 Corinthians ch 15
1 John ch 2
These scriptures and others obliterate and destroy the lie of pre-trib. They detest it and will not allow it to cling to them.
" No lie is of the truth"