Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[David in NJ]

If the blood of Christ doesn't cleanse future sins then is that because it is ineffective and in inefficacious? That's essentially what your saying. That the sacrifice of Christ, being infinite and existing outside of time, is insufficient to cover our sins.

Christ's Atonement for us has paid in full our sins = past, present and future - AMEN
I would not be here if it were not so....Thank You for that encouraging TRUE & Unmovable reminder of His Love for us

 

[Randy Kluth]

I just want to add that I was attending a Calvary Chapel church which preaches pre-trib rapture. I really liked the people there and felt very welcomed. I attended for probably six months and God would continually close doors for me there. Doors closed to the point of me not attending any more. I felt kind of confused as I thought God would want me at church but it was obvious to me that he didn't want me there. I think that maybe these doors closed to keep me from false hope.

Hi Mantis: I found that interesting--yes, God sometimes leads us in different, unexpected directions. It doesn't mean the Calvary Chapels are bad. I actually think they're good. I've been connected at various times to them up here in Washington. I don't like their Pretrib Theology, but otherwise, they're good folks.

This is a true story. When I lived in S. CA for about 3 years in the late 70s (I'm old) I started listening to Chuck Smith on the radio, and read his Pretrib Commentary on Revelation. I had been Postrib for awhile, but Smith made me doubt if I could be more right than he was. I came to the conclusion that I shouldn't doubt what God had already showed me on the subject--Smith's interest was prophecy, but his ministry was being a hub for a virtual new denomination.

At the time I attended another Pretrib Church, Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim, CA. I lived halfway between these two great churches. So I wrote Smith, after having written him numerous times about my Postrib, asking him if I should attend his Pretrib church. He wrote back, quoting me from Amos: "Should two who disagree walk together?"

Then I wrote Ralph Wilkerson, pastor of Melodyland Christian Center, asking him the same question. He encouraged me to attend his church regardless, since I had already made it my home. What a generous man!

So I don't go to church where I always agree. I go where I feel comfortable, spiritually, as God guides. I determine God's guidance by whether a ministry is taking place there, spiritually, and I am part of it. That ministry is not often about one's view of prophecy, so it doesn't matter so much to me. But since I will always state my position, I do run up against hostile Pretrib actors.

Pretribbers and Postribbers are both largely Premillennialists, as I've experienced them. So they do see the current age in a negative light, and are determined to endure hard times, if necessary. I don't see the final challenge under Antichrist as any worse than any other major challenge in history--there have already been many antichrists. Just as Christians survived those times, I'm sure we'll survive the coming challenges. God is always greater than Satan, the Antichrist, and the world. We need worry about nothing. But we should never get "too happy" so that we don't give up when things go south!

 

[marks]

If the blood of Christ doesn't cleanse future sins then is that because it is ineffective and in inefficacious? That's essentially what your saying. That the sacrifice of Christ, being infinite and existing outside of time, is insufficient to cover our sins.

To me these are easily answered in Scripture, Behold, the Lamb of God, Who carries away the sin of the world. And, God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses against them.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

I say AMEN to that Great Love of Christ whose Blood cleanses us from all sin - HE remains Faithful even when our faith fails!!!!

The error of pre-trib will lead 'some' people to recieving the Mark - which will not be forgiven to those (Christian or not) who receive it.
The other error of pre-trib is this: "No lie is of the truth" I John 2:21
It divides the body of Christ which God hates - Proverbs 6:16-19
It will be devastating to those who hope in this falsehood when it does not produce the fruit of righteousness which it pretends to do.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelations 16:15
And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:36-40

Christ comes as a thief... Unannounced! Jesus Christ could come today! Be ready and prepared and you will have nothing to worry about!

There is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus could come today. On the other hand, the Bible depicts Christ returning "as a thief" at Armageddon. And Paul talks about Jesus coming "as a thief" at the 2nd Coming, to destroy sinners who are not living for him, who will be surprised by him because they aren't preparing for him.

Rev 16.15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

1 Thes 5.Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

 

[rockytopva]

There is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus could come today.

Why then, all of the occurrences (including Christ, Peter, and Paul) of Christ coming as a thief? If this was after tribulation it would be rather well announced!

 

[CharismaticLady]

I say AMEN to that Great Love of Christ whose Blood cleanses us from all sin - HE remains Faithful even when our faith fails!!!!

Because sin separates us from God, that is why Jesus has given us a new nature that does NOT willfully commit sins of lawlessness, and gives us the fruit of the Spirit to grow and mature inside us.

 

[David in NJ]

Because it is not the topic of the Book, however, it is consistent with the pre-trib rapture.

Much love!

False - The return of the Lord is the main topic of the Book as well as the judgements and warnings - I mean like really?
All pre-tribrs do the same thing - cover their eyes & ears to any scripture that exposes their idol, as well as add to and take away from scripture.
WOW - Christ's return not the subject of Revelations - all I can say is WOW what a complete denial.
Better rip out all the passages in Revelation that mention the Lord as well as His Return, as well as the Body of Christ mentioned throughout from beginning to end - WOW

 

[marks]

I don't see the final challenge under Antichrist as any worse than any other major challenge in history--there have already been many antichrists. Just as Christians survived those times, I'm sure we'll survive the coming challenges. God is always greater than Satan, the Antichrist, and the world. We need worry about nothing. But we should never get "too happy" so that we don't give up when things go south!

At the end of the day, this to me is the main thing. We trust God. Terrible things can happen to us with or without it being the end of the age.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Since you didn't show the text I will . . .

2 Timothy 2:15-19 KJV
15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19) Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

How does this passage show Rapture timing?

Much love!

In case I missed this question: I say to you; how does it not?
The Resurrection and the Rapture are inseparable.
But this is how the error and deceit of pre-trib starts - by wrongly dividing the Word of God.
Set your feet upon the Rock = Christ's Return & the Resurrection & the Rapture are INSEPARABLE.
Thus Jesus says "Immediatelty after the trib of those days He will send His angels to gather us!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thus Paul writes " The dead in Christ will rise BEFORE we are raptured!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thus Revelations says " Do not add or take away from these words"
Thus Revelations says to us "do not take the Mark" = "and they(us) overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb andthey loved not their lives unto death"
Thus Revelations says to us "those in heaven who came out of Great Tribulation wait until the rest of your brethren have been killed as you were"
Thus Revelations says to us in Chapter 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief.Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments,lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

Get the lie of pre-trib out of your head. It was not placed there by the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Truth. It comes from religion and not from God.

 

[rockytopva]

In case I missed this question: I say to you; how does it not?
The Resurrection and the Rapture are inseparable.
But this is how the error and deceit of pre-trib starts - by wrongly dividing the Word of God.
Set your feet upon the Rock = Christ's Return & the Resurrection & the Rapture are INSEPARABLE.
Thus Jesus says "Immediatelty after the trib of those days He will send His angels to gather us!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thus Paul writes " The dead in Christ will rise BEFORE we are raptured!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thus Revelations says " Do not add or take away from these words"
Thus Revelations says to us "do not take the Mark" = "and they(us) overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb andthey loved not their lives unto death"
Thus Revelations says to us "those in heaven who came out of Great Tribulation wait until the rest of your brethren have been killed as you were"
Thus Revelations says to us in Chapter 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief.Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments,lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

Get the lie of pre-trib out of your head. It was not placed there by the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Truth. It comes from religion and not from God.

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelations 16:15
And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:36-40

Christ comes as a thief... Unannounced! Jesus Christ could come today! Which is why I also believe in a rapture.

 

[David in NJ]

I also believe in the Hope of His Coming - the Resurrection of the Righteous at His Coming and the Rapture of His Elect at His Coming according to the Word of God.
Jesus did not say He could come today - The context of a "Thief in the night" is subject, key word here 'subject', to ALL He taught on the matter from the book of Daniel to the Gospels to the writings of the Apostle Paul to the Book of Revelations.
I believe in the rapture also - according to what Jesus and the Apostles taught.
Pre-trib is not what Jesus and the Apostles taught - thus the commands of Christ from Matt 25:29 through to Revelation chapter 16.
If you cannot accept the clear accurate teachings of Christ and Paul on this subject, is it wise to be confident in a falsehood?
Unless death takes you home to Christ first, you will be here tomorrow and the next day until the Man of Sin is revealed and the Mark of the Beast is implemented, coming very soon.
The thief in the night is a current/daily warning to live Godly now and everyday because we do not know when our allotted time on this earth runs out. Therefore it is a ever present Truth from our Lord.
What is far, far more important then pre-trib is the Truth and our walk with the Lord.
Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him....Gen 5:24
Noah and his family entered the Ark... and the Lord shut him in. Gen 7:13-16
I will send the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive. John 14:16-18
Peace and love in Christ who is our Hope and our Confidence - Amen

 

[Randy Kluth]

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelations 16:15
And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:36-40

Christ comes as a thief... Unannounced! Jesus Christ could come today! Which is why I also believe in a rapture.

I'm reading a book right now, written a couple of years ago by two well-seasoned scholars. They had both been Pretrib early in their Christian lives, but as students of the Scriptures could not remain Pretrib. The authors say that there is no teaching in the Scriptures that say Jesus can come today. "Not Afraid of the Antichrist," by Michael L. Brown and Craig S. Keener.

I can certify that. Nowhere did Jesus say he would come before the last day of the age. Nowhere did he say he could come "at any time." His sense of the imminence of the Kingdom had to do with the tension man has in getting ready for eternal judgment and nothing to do with any expectation that Christ could return at any time.

In fact, Jesus made it clear that we are *not* to expect any secret coming before his appearance from heaven, but only to always be ready for judgment by living righteous lives. In other words, we're to be righteous all the time, and not because Christ might suddenly come today and catch us doing something wrong!

Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

If you have a biblical statement that says Christ can come today, please present it. Otherwise, don't say such unbiblical things!

 

[rockytopva]

I'm reading a book right now, written a couple of years ago by two well-seasoned scholars. They had both been Pretrib early in their Christian lives, but as students of the Scriptures could not remain Pretrib. The authors say that there is no teaching in the Scriptures that say Jesus can come today. "Not Afraid of the Antichrist," by Michael L. Brown and Craig S. Keener.

I can certify that. Nowhere did Jesus say he would come before the last day of the age. Nowhere did he say he could come "at any time." His sense of the imminence of the Kingdom had to do with the tension man has in getting ready for eternal judgment and nothing to do with any expectation that Christ could return at any time.

In fact, Jesus made it clear that we are *not* to expect any secret coming before his appearance from heaven, but only to always be ready for judgment by living righteous lives. In other words, we're to be righteous all the time, and not because Christ might suddenly come today and catch us doing something wrong!

Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

If you have a biblical statement that says Christ can come today, please present it. Otherwise, don't say such unbiblical things!

Rapture is not in the Bible but caught up is...
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4

 

[Randy Kluth]

Rapture is not in the Bible but caught up is...
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4

Yes, you can quote 1 Thes 4, and use the word "harpazo." What you can't do is cite any biblical theology that says it will take place before the Reign of Antichrist, or that it is separate from the 2nd Coming.

 

[rockytopva]

Yes, you can quote 1 Thes 4, and use the word "harpazo." What you can't do is cite any biblical theology that says it will take place before the Reign of Antichrist, or that it is separate from the 2nd Coming.

How are we going to return with Christ at the second coming if we are not first Raptured away before hand?

 

[Randy Kluth]

How are we going to return with Christ at the second coming if we are not first Raptured away before hand?

Space and time are not a problem with God. It all takes place in an instant.

The dead in Christ are with Christ now in heaven. When it is time for Christ to come back, the dead will be called up, and the living saints will be called up, and together we will all receive new glorified bodies. And at the same moment in time we will descend from heaven with Christ to establish God's Kingdom on the earth.

The specifics of this event are not given us. We are just told that it takes place instantly, as the reflection in an eye watching it happen, the "twinkling of an eye."

 

[David in NJ]

How are we going to return with Christ at the second coming if we are not first Raptured away before hand?

This is not complicated - the Spirits of those who have died in Christ are with Christ now. He will bring them with Him on His Return.
Upon His return the first thing Christ does is RESURRECT the Bodies of those who are His and with Him. 1 Thessalonians ch 4
Christ is the Firstborn (Firstfruits) of many Brethren - 1 Corinthians 15:22-24
The Dead in Christ will be given NEW Glorified Bodies. We do not now know how magnificent and spectacular they will be. 1 Corinthians ch 15:52
Then AFTER the Resurrection we who are His and alive on the earth will be caught up (raptured). 1Thess ch 4
While being raptured our bodies will transition into GLORIFIED Bodies just as Christ and those in the First Resurrection.
This all occurs at His Coming, at the Last Trump, Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those Days. Matt 24:29 , 1 Thess ch 4 , 1 Cor ch 15 , Rev.

This is not complicated - the false pre-trib doctrine makes in complicated so they can control you and keep you submissive unto religion. and make lots of money off of you.
This is how all falsehood operates - confuse, complicate,puff up and then redirect away from the truth so that the sheeple do not see what is right in front of them.

 

[David in NJ]

How are we going to return with Christ at the second coming if we are not first Raptured away before hand?

Two things #1 this is not complicated - see my post below and #2 rapture ( caught up ) is in the bible. Pre-Trib rapture is NOT
1 Thess ch 1 obliterates pre-trib rapture as does Matt 24:29 as does 1 & 2 Thess as does I Cor ch 15 as does I John ch 2 as does Revelations

 

[David in NJ]

Meditate on this passage of scripture, allow it to settle in and free your mind - 2 Timothy 2:15-19