Salvation with works, not by works
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Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
@Ronald Nolette Verse 10 of Ephesians 2 follows on from verses 8 & 9, but does not negate them!
"8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
That is what I said. The good works follow us being eternally saved.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
YOu are talking in hypotheticals no man can know. How many good works, how often, when should they start appearing?
Salvation is not about works but grace through faith. Works are a result of being saved by trusting in the death and physical resaurrection of Jesus from the grave. They don't save but come from being saved. Howe many how initense and all the rest is Gods business and not ours.
When? Do you understand what that means? Or is just knowing the formula enough to "get saved". I know the theory of relativity too... E=MC2 Does that mean I'm now a physicist?
the devil also trusts that Jesus was crucified and was raised again. Having a human belief ABOUT Jesus just gives you a religious opinion. It doesn't give you the power to overcome sin, the flesh, the world and the devil. You will have to look much deeper than having a superficial dogmatic stance to enter into the kingdom of God.
It never ceases to surprise me how quickly derisive some people become, and not even appropriately, if that can even be said! How much more edifying this all would be without such things!
Much love!
Much love!
You can't even sneak works into the back door. We are reconciled to God fully apart from our works either good or bad.
At the end of the day, God knows each one of His children, and we don't need works to prove ourselves to Him.
Much love!
"How many how intense and all the rest is Gods business and not ours."
It is our business in our salvation with God.
I agree we aren't to be making it our business in the life of others, unless they make it our business by openly sinning without shame in our faces. Then it is our commandment to not keep company with and avoid such.
A salvation that has not the things that accompany salvation of God is not salvation of God, but of man.
Believing we are saved by Jesus is different from believing Jesus, repenting from dead works, and going on to obey His Word in good things.
I think the division in the argument is this: Believing Jesus unto salvation and repentance of dead works, knowing we have eternal life, is different from believing we are saved by Jesus with no repentance and no good works.
Whether that state of apostasy occurs immediately or down the road, it doesn't matter.
They who claim a salvation without the things of God that accompany salvation are claiming a false salvation and believing a lie, and are damned, if they repent not, just like any other unbeliever that makes no such claim at all, and even worse:
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess 2)
It can be called a warning not to turn back from the truth, as Scripture does, or can be called a commandment to repent with salvation. Either way, salvation without the condition of repentance from dead works is not salvation of God.
Call it necessity, if 'condition' is anathema. Salvation is not, and will never be, without necessity of repentance.
It is our business in our salvation with God.
I agree we aren't to be making it our business in the life of others, unless they make it our business by openly sinning without shame in our faces. Then it is our commandment to not keep company with and avoid such.
A salvation that has not the things that accompany salvation of God is not salvation of God, but of man.
Believing we are saved by Jesus is different from believing Jesus, repenting from dead works, and going on to obey His Word in good things.
I think the division in the argument is this: Believing Jesus unto salvation and repentance of dead works, knowing we have eternal life, is different from believing we are saved by Jesus with no repentance and no good works.
Whether that state of apostasy occurs immediately or down the road, it doesn't matter.
They who claim a salvation without the things of God that accompany salvation are claiming a false salvation and believing a lie, and are damned, if they repent not, just like any other unbeliever that makes no such claim at all, and even worse:
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess 2)
It can be called a warning not to turn back from the truth, as Scripture does, or can be called a commandment to repent with salvation. Either way, salvation without the condition of repentance from dead works is not salvation of God.
Call it necessity, if 'condition' is anathema. Salvation is not, and will never be, without necessity of repentance.
The problem with a 'free standing' salvation, standing alone in itself by grace apart from the works necessary for repentance, that always come with salvation, is that it leads to a salvation from judgement, but not a deliverance from sin.
It promotes a salvation, where the one saved has nothing to say nor do about it, once saved.
The thinking goes like this: We cannot save ourselves. Our works cannot save us. Even our faith is by grace of God, and God does all the work to prepare us and works in us unto the end. We have no part in our salvation from God by grace, except to believe.
This of course can become more of a 'believe we are saved by Jesus' rather than the Scripture of believing Jesus and knowing we have eternal life (1 John 5:13). That faith produces good works with repentance from dead works. The other 'faith' produces only a sense of security from judgment, without fear of God:
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Phillipians 2)
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1 Tim 4)
We do not our part of obedience to the faith, then we have no part in the saved body of Christ, because we have no faith of Jesus toward God, but only faith in our own eternal security in the name of Jesus only.
Such salvation is in mind only, along with a repentance that is of mind only, which really is just conviction of God without turning from sin convicted of.
There is no fear of the Lord with them who only can acknowledge conviction of sin, but have no necessity of repenting from sin, because they will never be judged as 'sinners' of the world. Necessity and works are anathema to their ears.
It promotes a salvation, where the one saved has nothing to say nor do about it, once saved.
The thinking goes like this: We cannot save ourselves. Our works cannot save us. Even our faith is by grace of God, and God does all the work to prepare us and works in us unto the end. We have no part in our salvation from God by grace, except to believe.
This of course can become more of a 'believe we are saved by Jesus' rather than the Scripture of believing Jesus and knowing we have eternal life (1 John 5:13). That faith produces good works with repentance from dead works. The other 'faith' produces only a sense of security from judgment, without fear of God:
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Phillipians 2)
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1 Tim 4)
We do not our part of obedience to the faith, then we have no part in the saved body of Christ, because we have no faith of Jesus toward God, but only faith in our own eternal security in the name of Jesus only.
Such salvation is in mind only, along with a repentance that is of mind only, which really is just conviction of God without turning from sin convicted of.
There is no fear of the Lord with them who only can acknowledge conviction of sin, but have no necessity of repenting from sin, because they will never be judged as 'sinners' of the world. Necessity and works are anathema to their ears.
Except that it is deliverance from sin.
Why would it not be, considering Law incites sin, increases sin, makes sin utterly sinful? Considering that self condemnation works against faith, and by faith we have access to the grace in which we stand?
The forgiveness of sins, complete and total, is what allows us boldness to come before the throne of - Grace - to find timely help.
For me there is nothing more certain, more immediate in my life, in my mind, then that any darkness whatsoever is dispelled by remembering God's love and acceptance of me, not for any I do or don't do, but because of Jesus. I change, but Jesus does not change. And so my reconciliation to God never changes.
The fact is, if we are born again, baptized into Christ, we have been freed from sin, and the only reason we have to not live that way is that we don't believe it.
I counsel, believe it. Study this until you are convinced, and then look at your life.
Much love!
TheslightestID
Active Member
The scripture on the Sheep/Goats, make it very clear we must do works, and you will notice how Christ doesn't even get into the fact that the mentioned works follow faith, but he only makes it clear we do them or else.
And that is not to say those works follow faith or not, but either way, they must be done, so no need for any confusion, as Christ makes it clear. Even some on this thread, may think they are saved, but they may not be because they have convinced themselves the works Christ himself said we must do, are not necessary, when it is clear they are.
They tread on dangerous or even deadly ground, and what's worse, they teach it to others.
And that is not to say those works follow faith or not, but either way, they must be done, so no need for any confusion, as Christ makes it clear. Even some on this thread, may think they are saved, but they may not be because they have convinced themselves the works Christ himself said we must do, are not necessary, when it is clear they are.
They tread on dangerous or even deadly ground, and what's worse, they teach it to others.
We need to be clear about something. Repentance precedes JUSTIFICATION by grace through faith. Good works follow and are a part of SANCTIFICATION.
We need to understand first of all that eternal life is God's GIFT to the one who repents and believes on Christ. The Holy Spirit is God's GIFT to the one who repents and believes on Christ. The Holy Spirit regenerates the one who believes and as a new creature in Christ that person has the indwelling Holy Spirit to produce good works and righteousness. Those are evidences of salvation.
The ones who are justified are ordained unto good works, but good works do not save, neither do they keep one saved. The Bible says that we are kept BY THE POWER OF GOD, and that nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
You will stay saved if you:
"…continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel" (Colossians 1:23)
And if:
"…ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2)
And if:
"…you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22)
Because:
"…if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26)
What did Jesus say?
Jesus said unto her, I AM the Resurrection, and the Life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25,26)
Salvation is purely by God's grace and based solely on the finished work of Christ -- the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world.
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation... For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.(Heb 9:23; 10:14)
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
No it is not. These are your words, no scripture says these things.
The gospel has many parts to it and The New Testament lays them out in detail. Those of your persuasion simply want to artificially separate scriptures and put them into different boxes in order to come up with a theology that does not involve complexity.
What I claim is salvation that is not related to my works. I'm redeemed because God imputes Jesus' righteousness to me, and God begets me. This is salvation, the forgiveness of sins, and birth into a new spiritual life.
Works of salvation come after. After, not concurrent. After, not prerequisite. After, as the result of a salvation already obtained.
Much love!
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
People love guarantees and warrantees, but in reality, as far as life, they are few and far in between.
Here is a question from a very young Sunday School student...Free Gift? What is the free gift that Christ gives us? And what makes it free?
Now if you say saved or salvation....I am going to ask you to define them from the point of belief to the time you are sitting at the banquet table in heaven. Is belief in Christ and saved a guaranteed ticket to heaven?
Next we all get to heaven... @Enoch111 @Michiah-Imla @Episkopos and I are all sitting together at the banquet table in heaven, having a grand old time. We can discuss the alcohol and cigars later....
Now it maybe a surprise to us but the belief of OSAS was actually true! And along with us is every person over the last 2000 years that truly and wholly believed in Christ. RBC Which means that every idolater, adulterer, cannibal, homosexual, murderer, rapist, child molester, thief, drunkard, drug user and pusher and swindler, that was saved will be there at the table with us.
So I asked Enoch why the guy next to me is trying to pour ketchup on my arm? Enoch tells me, he is Josea, he is a cannibal.
I stand up a guy comes up to me and grabs me and starts humping my leg! Enoch saves me by stick him with a fork and informs me that that is Billy Joe...he is a homosexual.
Episkopos is sitting at the table and realizes that his dinner is missing. Enoch points to the guy across the table who stole his food and says that that is George...He is a thief.
Suddenly a guy stands up and starts stabbing people with a knife! and Michiah yells who is that!....and Enoch says that is John Gotti....Mofia mob boss and murderer..
Now first of all I want to know how Enoch knows all these guys by name?
Now how did they get there? Why did they get there? Is this any place for good people and God? Is this what we would call a reward for good people? Is God going to tell us that heaven and hell are the same except heaven does not have fire?
Here is a question from a very young Sunday School student...Free Gift? What is the free gift that Christ gives us? And what makes it free?
Now if you say saved or salvation....I am going to ask you to define them from the point of belief to the time you are sitting at the banquet table in heaven. Is belief in Christ and saved a guaranteed ticket to heaven?
Next we all get to heaven... @Enoch111 @Michiah-Imla @Episkopos and I are all sitting together at the banquet table in heaven, having a grand old time. We can discuss the alcohol and cigars later....
Now it maybe a surprise to us but the belief of OSAS was actually true! And along with us is every person over the last 2000 years that truly and wholly believed in Christ. RBC Which means that every idolater, adulterer, cannibal, homosexual, murderer, rapist, child molester, thief, drunkard, drug user and pusher and swindler, that was saved will be there at the table with us.
So I asked Enoch why the guy next to me is trying to pour ketchup on my arm? Enoch tells me, he is Josea, he is a cannibal.
I stand up a guy comes up to me and grabs me and starts humping my leg! Enoch saves me by stick him with a fork and informs me that that is Billy Joe...he is a homosexual.
Episkopos is sitting at the table and realizes that his dinner is missing. Enoch points to the guy across the table who stole his food and says that that is George...He is a thief.
Suddenly a guy stands up and starts stabbing people with a knife! and Michiah yells who is that!....and Enoch says that is John Gotti....Mofia mob boss and murderer..
Now first of all I want to know how Enoch knows all these guys by name?
Now how did they get there? Why did they get there? Is this any place for good people and God? Is this what we would call a reward for good people? Is God going to tell us that heaven and hell are the same except heaven does not have fire?
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Biblical faith is not head knowledge alone.
also God never offered the devil and his fallen angels repentance. He has given it to us.
but the bible is clear about the "formula" for salvation as you call it:
Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
No works are involved in salvation. One is saved the moment they place their trust in the death and resurrection in Jesus. then all teh benefits and promises are granted to the individual. It is not just knowing a "formula" but trusting in it. that produces a new and changed life.
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