Biblical Mary

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Ronald Nolette

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Why do you insist on LYING - when you know that I will publicly expose you for it??
Regarding your idiotic and dishonest statement above in RED - a debunked that in my LAST post.

Here it is again:
- In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother" (adelphos), even though he was Abraham’s NEPHEW (Gen. 11:26–28).
- In
Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" (adelphos) of his UNCLE Laban.
- Brothers
Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren”(adelphoi), the sons of Kish - who were actually their COUSINS (1 Chr. 23:21–22).


THREE clear examples that PROVE you are lying about the use of "Adelphos".
ENOUGH with the LIES already . . .

You do know that these verses are originally in Hebrew? Adelphos is a Greek not a Hebrew word.

But from the septuigant Gen. 14 uses syngenes, Gen. 29 uses adelphos (without researching it is most likely in reference to kinsmen by ethnicity or that greek hadn't fully developed in the 4t
Why do you insist on LYING - when you know that I will publicly expose you for it??
Regarding your idiotic and dishonest statement above in RED - a debunked that in my LAST post.

Here it is again:
- In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother" (adelphos), even though he was Abraham’s NEPHEW (Gen. 11:26–28).
- In
Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" (adelphos) of his UNCLE Laban.
- Brothers
Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren”(adelphoi), the sons of Kish - who were actually their COUSINS (1 Chr. 23:21–22).


THREE clear examples that PROVE you are lying about the use of "Adelphos".
ENOUGH with the LIES already . . .

Well Gen. 14 uses syngeneses in the Septuigant.
Gen 29 uses adelphos ( and as the greek scholars who write the concordances and lexicons defined- it would have meant fellow Israeli.)
And given that the soins of Kis were about 4th or fifth cousins- brethren in the septuigant also would refer to fellow jews.

but remember Jews called fellow Jews brethren! and given the septuigant was written for teh jews in teh empire scattered who di dnot return and had lost teh knwolege of Hebrew, they would have understood it as fellow Jews.

but now look in the NT where Greek was the original language and not a translation.
 

Ronald Nolette

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So You give a link to prove your case ans show you that it proves mine. Suddenly that link is no longer valid. How mendacious is that.
Please stop wasting my time on this.

I'll give you a link to what I thin k is a good explanation but first here is an extract that shows that they submit ti the Pope.

So who are these "other" Catholics? They have their own hierarchies and liturgies, as well as their own distinct apostolic lineages. They may look and act like Eastern Orthodox churches, but they recognize the pope of Rome as the head of the visible Church on earth and have suffered for the cause of that unity......

The following is a brief survey of each of the 24 sui iuris Catholic Churches all of which are in full communion with Rome. Parishes can be found throughout the United States and Canada. They are grouped by rite and include brief descriptions, along with an estimate of their current membership numbers. Some of these Churches are headed by metropolitans or major archbishops who are independently elected and then confirmed by the pope. The Patriarchal Eastern Catholic Churches elect and consecrate their own patriarch completely independent of the pontiff; letters of official communion are exchanged after the installation. Other Churches simply submit a list of eligible candidates to Rome for consideration
.
The Other Catholics: A Short Guide to the Eastern Catholic Churches

Yes those few churches headed by archbishops submit o Rome, but I gave a list of all the catholic sects besides the Roman Catrholic Church and picked three at random- all three have their own patriarch they submit to and the patriarch does not submit to Rome. they may be in full fellowship (communion) with Rome but the Pope is not their head! Unless you can shop where these churches that split from the Roman Catholic Church way back whien- formally announced they submit to the Pope- their individual heads are their equivalent of Pope.
 

Ronald Nolette

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WRONG.

He is the earthly head of the ENTIRE Catholic Church - which includes ALL of the Bishops and Liturgical Rites.
Their "Patriarchs" are BISHOPS - as were the Patriarchs in the Early Church.

As for "Pontifex Maximus" and "Vicarius fili Dei" - they are NOT the same title, Einstein.
Good grief - take some time OFF and do some studying. Your responses are asinine . . .


I knew they are not the same title, but if you weren;'t so blinded by your animosity you would have easily seen that.

Though members of Orthodox Churches essentially practice the same faith as those of the Roman Catholic Church, they remain separated because of an historic dispute over the supremacy of the Pope. Since the Eastern Orthodox Church refuses to acknowledge the authority of the Pope, its members by definition cannot follow leadership from the Pope. There was once only one Christian church. Proclaimed “catholic,” which means universal, because it had a global reach, this institution split into eastern and western branches in 1054. The Pope leads the western Catholic Church, with its headquarters, Vatican City, located within Rome, Italy. Proclaimed the Vicar of Christ, or the human representative of Jesus, the Christian savior, the Pope assumes infallibility, or unquestioned authority, when making statements in an official capacity. Christians, such as Orthodox Catholics, that refuse to submit to the authority of the Pope are in a state of schism, or separation, from the Roman Catholic Church.

Now POGO, if you can show a compact, concordat, treaty, or whateedever that shows all 24 of the eastern catholic sects rejoinjed the western catholic church AKA the Roman Catholic Church, I will gladly re3cant of my position. But I haven't seen or heard or such compact.

Doing further work on the 24 eatern rites, I learned some have resubmitted to the headship of the pope, like the Melkonites (all 53,000 of them).

but most sare still in schism because they do not recognize the pope as head! that is history and fact!
 

BreadOfLife

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There is no argument.
The Lord Found favor with Mary.
(Not an argument.)

The Scripture notifies us of WHY/ WHAT made Mary Favored. (Just as Scripture notifies us every other Person Favored/Chosen, to Serve the Lord).
(Not an argument.)

The Disagreement is;
I trust What Scripture says is the WHY/WHAT and WHEN, Mary Became Favorable.

You make up Mary was MADE "SINLESS". ....and thus MADE "Favored", thus "SINLESS".

NOT ONCE, Does Scripture notify ANYONE, THAT ANY natural born Earthly man-kind of thing was "created, made or naturally born SINLESS".

* IN FACT, the Scripture teaches the complete Opposite.
Pss 51:5
Rom 5:12
Rom 3:23

* Jesus, born of God, IS THE ONLY, one revealed having come forth out from God, and EXPRESSLY Revealed WITHOUT Sin.
John 1:13
John 16: 27-28
1 Pet 2:22

* John the Baptist himself, filled with the Holy Spirit while IN his mothers Womb, Was NEVER called SINLESS.
Luke 1:16

Gods Favor does not mean SINLESS.
Being FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT, does not mean SINLESS.


Scripture expressly Teaches ALL Earthly mankind HAVE been born IN Sin and HAVE Sinned.

Scripture expressly Teaches ANY man who says otherwise, DOES NOT HAVE THE TRUTH IN HIM.
1 John 1:
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


* Mary herself, never said, "she has no sin".

* The Absolute Disdain and Contempt of the Catholic Church IS "THEM speaking FOR Mary"... "Claiming Mary had no sin".

* You mimic what the Catholic Church has taught you. You repeat the Catholic Church's Lie pertaining to MARY.
You repeatedly SPEAK false claims FOR OTHERS.

* You fool noone.


And...The SAME as the Catholic Church does, and has also taught you... you ALSO couple your False Claims, with intended derogatory accusations, when one rejects YOUR CLAIMS.

As you have Revealed....from the cradle you have been STEEPED in the Catholic Church's (FALSE) Teachings.

As you have Revealed....you are a dedicated Servant of "the Catholic Church" and "it's (corrupt) Doctrine".

As you have been Notified...men STEEPED in the Lords Teachings, men dedicated Servants of "the Lord" and "His Doctrine"...
Reject your Teachings and Catholic Doctrine.

As you have been Notified...no man serving the Lord "according to" His Teaching and His Doctrine Are ashamed, or embarrassed, or Wrong, or beaten .... because you say so.

* Scripture reveals Jesus Gave NOTICE to His own Disciples, that AFTER, Jesus returned TO Heaven, from whence He Came....THEN would His Faithful RECEIVE Baptism of the Holy Spirit...AND THAT, being Baptized with the HOLY SPIRIT..."DID NOT MAKE ANYONE "SINLESS"...

* Clearly, YOU favor being a disciple of the Catholic Church's Teachings and Doctrine.

* Clearly, Not everyone is favorable to being "on your Catholic path"... and have "instead" chosen "Jesus' path".

* Clearly, the Catholic Church is your favored and chosen Church, as the ONLY True Church.

* Clearly, others favor and have chosen their membership in the Temple of the Lord, as the ONLY True Church.

* Get over it. The Lord NEVER call all men to follow you.
Another extremely verbose, psychotic rant.
Too bad it was ALL based on a FALSE premise.

Once again - you keep ignoring the fact that the Bible WASN'T written in the King's English, like the KJV. The NT was written in KOINE GREEK - and the language used by the Angel to Mary in Luke 1:28 says FAR MORE that you want to admit.

Let me know when you want to have an intelligent discussion about Mary's title of Kecharitomene, used in Luke 1:28.
ONLY then, will it become evident that your objections are serious - and NOT the pathetic joke that they are . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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I knew they are not the same title, but if you weren;'t so blinded by your animosity you would have easily seen that.

Though members of Orthodox Churches essentially practice the same faith as those of the Roman Catholic Church, they remain separated because of an historic dispute over the supremacy of the Pope. Since the Eastern Orthodox Church refuses to acknowledge the authority of the Pope, its members by definition cannot follow leadership from the Pope. There was once only one Christian church. Proclaimed “catholic,” which means universal, because it had a global reach, this institution split into eastern and western branches in 1054. The Pope leads the western Catholic Church, with its headquarters, Vatican City, located within Rome, Italy. Proclaimed the Vicar of Christ, or the human representative of Jesus, the Christian savior, the Pope assumes infallibility, or unquestioned authority, when making statements in an official capacity. Christians, such as Orthodox Catholics, that refuse to submit to the authority of the Pope are in a state of schism, or separation, from the Roman Catholic Church.

Now POGO, if you can show a compact, concordat, treaty, or whateedever that shows all 24 of the eastern catholic sects rejoinjed the western catholic church AKA the Roman Catholic Church, I will gladly re3cant of my position. But I haven't seen or heard or such compact.

Doing further work on the 24 eatern rites, I learned some have resubmitted to the headship of the pope, like the Melkonites (all 53,000 of them).

but most sare still in schism because they do not recognize the pope as head! that is history and fact!
ONE more time, Einstein . . .

The Melkite, Maronite, Byzantine, Coptic, Alexandrian, Ruthenian Liturgical Rites - and ALL the rest - are NOT part of the Orthodox Church. They are part of the CATHOLIC Church because they are in FULL COMMUNION with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope). The wikipedia link that YOU presented stated this fact.

The utter stupidity of your posts that claim this is NOT the case just blows me away.
To say that I am astounded by your stupidity on the matter is the understatement of the year . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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You do know that these verses are originally in Hebrew? Adelphos is a Greek not a Hebrew word.

But from the septuigant Gen. 14 uses syngenes, Gen. 29 uses adelphos (without researching it is most likely in reference to kinsmen by ethnicity or that greek hadn't fully developed in the 4t
Well Gen. 14 uses syngeneses in the Septuigant.
Gen 29 uses adelphos ( and as the greek scholars who write the concordances and lexicons defined- it would have meant fellow Israeli.)
And given that the soins of Kis were about 4th or fifth cousins- brethren in the septuigant also would refer to fellow jews.

but remember Jews called fellow Jews brethren! and given the septuigant was written for teh jews in teh empire scattered who di dnot return and had lost teh knwolege of Hebrew, they would have understood it as fellow Jews.

but now look in the NT where Greek was the original language and not a translation.
In Hebrew - the word used "adelphos" is used is "ach" which carries ALL of the same meanings that "Adelphos" does:
Brother of same parents, half-brother (same father), uncle, cousin, step-sibling, kinsfolk, same tribe, and even a fellow countryman
And there is NO Hebrew word for "cousin".

This is WHY the word "Adelpos" was used in the Septuagint translation, Einstein.
Do your HOMEWORK . . .
 

Taken

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Another extremely verbose, psychotic rant.
Too bad it was ALL based on a FALSE premise.

Thanks for sharing, you believe the following are ALL FALSE.
John 1:13
John 16:27-28
1 Pet 2:22
Luke 1:16
1 John 1

Not surprising considering your other remarks against scripture have been noted.

Knock, knock...and the Lord said,
I don't know you.

Let me know when you want to have an intelligent discussion

I'll pass on your supercilious offer.
Having a conversation with a wise person is so much more rewarding.
 

Ronald Nolette

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ONE more time, Einstein . . .

The Melkite, Maronite, Byzantine, Coptic, Alexandrian, Ruthenian Liturgical Rites - and ALL the rest - are NOT part of the Orthodox Church. They are part of the CATHOLIC Church because they are in FULL COMMUNION with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope). The wikipedia link that YOU presented stated this fact.

The utter stupidity of your posts that claim this is NOT the case just blows me away.
To say that I am astounded by your stupidity on the matter is the understatement of the year . . .

Well this fun has come to an end. Yo9u want to push communion, which I do not argue with! I am saying they have their own leaders appointed apart and with oor without approval of Rome- you refuse to acknowledge that. YOu need to learn th edifference between communion and submission.

Thius endeth this discussion with you on this matter.

Now if you want to talk about the myths that Catholicism has spun about Marty as this thread is supposed to be about until you got your panites all in a wad over something everybody knows, lets go. Otherwise you are just playing silly word games with the word communionand as I consider you intelligent I am convinced you know th edifference but are just ranting to mask the truth.
 

Ronald Nolette

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In Hebrew - the word used "adelphos" is used is "ach" which carries ALL of the same meanings that "Adelphos" does:
Brother of same parents, half-brother (same father), uncle, cousin, step-sibling, kinsfolk, same tribe, and even a fellow countryman
And there is NO Hebrew word for "cousin".

This is WHY the word "Adelpos" was used in the Septuagint translation, Einstein.
Do your HOMEWORK . . .


But "Ach" also carries the meaning of kin like a cousin or nephew or niece that adelphos doesn't! Hebrew and Greek are different languages and the Hebrew did not in these days have a word for cousin, uncle , nephew etc. They just used "ach"

The KJV translates Strong's H251 in the following manner: brethren (332x), brother (269x), another (23x), brotherly (1x), kindred (1x), like (1x), another (1x), other (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage H1]):—another, brother(-ly); kindred, like, other. Compare also the proper names beginning with 'Ah-' or 'Ahi-'

HAving taken Hebrew and Greek in Bible College I did and still do my homework. Yours is simply a superficial study and you see the word brother and og "aha" see! But you should go between the superficial and maybe you would learn something.

but look in the Greek New TEstament- you won't find a relative (not immediate family) called adelphos! They are synenges Greeks had a word Hebrew didn't!
 

BreadOfLife

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Thanks for sharing, you believe the following are ALL FALSE.
John 1:13
John 16:27-28
1 Pet 2:22
Luke 1:16
1 John 1

Not surprising considering your other remarks against scripture have been noted.

Knock, knock...and the Lord said,
I don't know you.
I'll pass on your supercilious offer.
Having a conversation with a wise person is so much more rewarding.
WRONG.
I don't deny Scripture like YOU do

You left Mary's God-given title of "Kecharitomene" out. You can't do that in a conversation about her sinlessness.
I understand WHY you left it out - because your entire argument collapses with that title.

And NONE of the verses you cited above negate her Title OR her sinless condition.
 

BreadOfLife

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Well this fun has come to an end. Yo9u want to push communion, which I do not argue with! I am saying they have their own leaders appointed apart and with oor without approval of Rome- you refuse to acknowledge that. YOu need to learn th edifference between communion and submission.

Thius endeth this discussion with you on this matter.

Now if you want to talk about the myths that Catholicism has spun about Marty as this thread is supposed to be about until you got your panites all in a wad over something everybody knows, lets go. Otherwise you are just playing silly word games with the word communionand as I consider you intelligent I am convinced you know th e difference but are just ranting to mask the truth.
Good - just admit to yourself that you LOST the argument and move on.

As for ANY Marian doctrines you'd like to discuss intelligently - you know where to find me.
They KEY word, however, is "intelligently", for a change . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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But "Ach" also carries the meaning of kin like a cousin or nephew or niece that adelphos doesn't! Hebrew and Greek are different languages and the Hebrew did not in these days have a word for cousin, uncle , nephew etc. They just used "ach"

The KJV translates Strong's H251 in the following manner: brethren (332x), brother (269x), another (23x), brotherly (1x), kindred (1x), like (1x), another (1x), other (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage H1]):—another, brother(-ly); kindred, like, other. Compare also the proper names beginning with 'Ah-' or 'Ahi-'

HAving taken Hebrew and Greek in Bible College I did and still do my homework. Yours is simply a superficial study and you see the word brother and og "aha" see! But you should go between the superficial and maybe you would learn something.

but look in the Greek New TEstament- you won't find a relative (not immediate family) called adelphos! They are synenges Greeks had a word Hebrew didn't!
You're absolutely WRONG - and I already proved it back in post #1050 and before.

Here it is again - just in case you forgot.
The following verses are from the GREEK Septuagint:
- In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother" (adelphos), even though he was Abraham’s NEPHEW (Gen. 11:26–28).
- In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" (adelphos) of his UNCLE Laban.
- Brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren”(adelphoi), the sons of Kish - who were actually their COUSINS (1 Chr. 23:21–22).


Your arguments against "Adelphos(oi)" being used for "cousin" or "nephew" are pointless and stupid - and rather embarrassing . . .
 

Taken

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WRONG.
I don't deny Scripture like YOU do

Backpeddling is of no use...
Quoted you, which by your own words prove your claim now, is false.

Scripture explicitly says Jesus was Without Sin.
Not one Scripture says Mary was Without Sin.

Not falling for your "fictional sinless mary"...
She never existed.
 

Taken

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Biblical Mary
OP ^

Every Mary mentioned in Scripture was born in sin, committed sin, and required Gods forgiveness of sin...to be forgiven of sin...
Just like every other earthly person, mentioned (or not) by name in Scripture.
 

BreadOfLife

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Backpeddling is of no use...
Quoted you, which by your own words prove your claim now, is false.

Scripture explicitly says Jesus was Without Sin.
Not one Scripture says Mary was Without Sin.

Not falling for your "fictional sinless mary"...
She never existed.
WRONG again.

As I have shown you MANY times now - and which YOU have repeatedly dodged - Luke 1:28 gives us that answer about Mary in the God-given title used by the Angel, "Kecharitomene."

You've been running from this verse since we started this conversation - or have imposed your KJV language on it.
There is NO single-word equivalent, so - as I educated you before - it was transliterated by Jerome to "Gratia plena" and "Highly favoured" by English Protestants.

So, UNTIL you are ready top have an intelligent conversation about this God-given title - you have LOST this argument.
 

BreadOfLife

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Biblical Mary
OP ^

Every Mary mentioned in Scripture was born in sin, committed sin, and required Gods forgiveness of sin...to be forgiven of sin...
Just like every other earthly person, mentioned (or not) by name in Scripture.
WRONG.

ONE Mary was given the title of "Kecharitomene" (Luke 1:28).
As a matter of fact - she is the ONLY person in ALL of Scripture (OT & NT) to be given this title.

Checkmate.
 

Illuminator

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Luke 1:28
Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary - itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated "highly favored" - which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language).

(some) Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary's freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don't see that this is "fitting" or "appropriate" (as Catholics do).
The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:

"Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . .
The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow'" (Plummer).​

Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, "grace"). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated "grace" 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as "full of grace" and that the literal meaning was "endued with grace" (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as "to endue with Divine favour or grace" (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to "divine favor, that is, God’s grace" (White, 201).

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary's personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .

(Kittel, 1304-1305)

Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean "a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18" (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary's sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and "conqueror" of sin (emphases added in the following verses):

Romans 6:14: "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are saved by grace, and grace alone:

Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (cf. Acts 15:11, Rom 3:24, 11:5, Eph 2:5, Titus 2:11, 3:7, 1 Pet 1:10)

Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

1. Grace saves us.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It's a "zero-sum game": the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7,9; 3:6,9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God's grace.

2. To be "full of" God's grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God's grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be "full of" God's grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.
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