Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[Phoneman777]

It must be a truly wondrous thing to reach the point in Christian growth where one can correct the Apostle John and even the Lord Jesus Himself when a direct quote from them and THEIR words disagrees with your opinions. I am in awe of your hubris.

The only correcting I engage in pertains to those who twist Scripture, or addeth to or taketh away from the same...well, and also those who appear to have English as a second language and fail to understand that words mean things.

 

[Phoneman777]

What does the P in Calvinism mean?

Preservation of the Saints means if you're a saint, you can't ever stop being one...aka Once Saved, Always Saved.

I always say that the Antinomianist/Hypergrace/OSAS crowd drinks "Calvinism Lite" -- tastes great, but it's all empty calories.

 

[Phoneman777]

God's bark is not worse than His bite. He is not like some weak parent ever indulgent toward her children. He does not speak the warning and then fail to act when it goes unheeded.

We MUST fully surrender our will to His will and remain as such until we hear the words, "Well done, good and faithful servant" or we will not hear them at all.

"Not My will, but Thine, be done". -- Jesus

 

[MatthewG]

It been awhile since I heard any think about once saved always saved, Phoneman777 thank you for mentioning it again. I personally believe it's a choice. A choice to stay in connection with God or not. There has to be some type of reaching towards God in where; God is reaching down towards us to have relationship. It requires actions; in a sense. If in a boat and Jesus is in the boat and you believe; and you are going off a waterfall and you are not rowing to in a since rowing towards God; you will fall off the waterfall and perish never growing spiritually.

 

[Cooper]

It must be a truly wondrous thing to reach the point in Christian growth where one can correct the Apostle John and even the Lord Jesus Himself when a direct quote from them and THEIR words disagrees with your opinions. I am in awe of your hubris.

Why do you ignore scriptures like these...?

Once Saved Always Saved is not scriptural. The apostle Paul warns Timothy about the dangers of making a shipwreck of his faith. (I Timothy 1:18-19)

In Hebrews 3:12-14 Christians are warned about the dangers of departing from the living God.

Hebrews 12:25 warns about turning away from the one who speaks from heaven!

II Peter 3:17 warns us about the dangers of being led away with the error of the wicked.

Heb 10:38 tells us "if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

Pro 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways, and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways.

Jer 14:7 "our backslidings are many; we have sinned against you.

Hos 11:7 My people are bent on turning away from me, and though they call out to the Most High, he shall not raise them up at all.

Luk 9:62 Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God.

Heb 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

2Pe 3:17 And so, dear friends, since you already know these things, continually be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people. Otherwise, you may fall from your secure position.

Hebrews 6:4 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
.

 

[robert derrick]

I've used that passage repeatedly to show the hypergrace crowd that "I never knew you" can be interpreted as God "remembering no more" the names of the righteous who turned back impenitently to wickedness, and they always argue, "Well, it says He NEVER knew them and that would make God a liar if they were once saved" which is a weak argument at best by virtue of the verses to which you refer in Ezekiel...but there is NO getting around the fact that Jesus said "many" -- not "all" -- will be unknown to Him on Judgment Day, which by implication and Biblical reasoning means there will be on Judgment Day those who are known to Him but stand just as lost alongside these "many" who are unknown to Him.

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24)

He that was a servant of the Lord became evil in service of the Lord. He that was not appointed to wrath of God made himself appointed with the hypocrites: cut asunder and judged according to his evil works.

Is calling a Christian that rejects unconditionally secure salvation as 'grace-hater', a form of smiting?

Smiting with the evil rod of false doctrine?

I know I have no such bruises, because I know they are false. But what about the 'babes' in Christ?

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

[atpollard]

Why do you ignore scriptures like these...?

I do not ignore scripture … only insincere posts trolling for a reaction.
Why do you make false accusations against the Saints?

 

[Cooper]

I do not ignore scripture … only insincere posts trolling for a reaction.
Why do you make false accusations against the Saints?

I do not believe a “Saint” would edit scripture to the point of rejecting those passages that warn about the dangers of backsliding. This is not what "Saints" of God do to Holy Writ.

 

[Curtis]

Jesus never got the TULIP memo - He warned the church at Sardis that they were DEAD, warned them to repent and become overcomers, or He would blot their names from the book of life.

Paul also missed John Calvin’s memo, he wrote that our sanctification is to avoid sexual sins - BTW, not doing something isn’t a work:

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, YOUR SANCTIFICATION: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1Th 4:4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,

1Th 4:5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;

1Th 4:6 that no one transgress and wrong his BROTHER in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly WARNED you.

1Th 4:7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.

1Th 4:8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

Our sanctification is to abstain from sexual immorality.

And Paul warns the church at Corinth to make sure they aren’t reprobates.


2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


He warns that some of the church that think they’re in the faith can actually have become reprobates.


The word reprobates is ADOKIMOS in the Greek, which becomes important in the next verse where Paul says he has to subjugate his flesh (the flesh is worldly desires to sin) daily, lest after preaching salvation to others, he end up a castaway.


1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring itinto subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY.


The word castaway is also ADOKIMOS in the Greek - reprobate - rejected by God as one failing the test.


Paul said he could end up a reprobate if he didn’t subjugate his flesh with its sinful desires, daily.

And he also wrote many conditional statements about continuing in the faith to remain in Christ, one of which follows:

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in yourmind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and benot moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, andwhich was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Albert Barnes commentary exegetes the above passage:

If ye continue in the faith - In the belief of the gospel, and in holy living. If this were done, they would be presented unblameable be fore God; if not, they would not be. The meaning is, that it will be impossible to be saved unless we continue to lead lives becoming the gospel.

The many conditional statements Paul made are ignored by Calvinists and the OSAS camp, because they are fatal to their doctrinal scenario of unconditional eternal security.

Like this one: IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT as He is in the light... the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin.

You have to continue in the faith - and continue to walk in the light. It’s an ongoing process of faith, and avoiding sin - especially sexual sins, per the Pauline verse given earlier that our sanctification is to avoid sexual sins - and repenting when we do commit one of the sins that Paul warns the brethren will keep us out of heaven.

Paul warned the brethren that some of them were THIEVES because they’d defrauded their brethren, then warned the church against being deceived into thinking they could steal, or commit other serious sins, and still enter into the kingdom of heaven


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD, and that your - BRETHREN.


1Co 6:9 Know yenot that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES (such as those who DEFRAUD the BRETHREN) nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.


Notice in verse 11 he states that some of the brethren used to live that way, but stopped after salvation - but we’ve already seen that some of them were ALSO living in sin by defrauding their brethren and stealing from them:


1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

There are four point Calvinists, even three point Calvinists - as people pick and choose which of the five points they reject - but since reformed election doctrines are bogus, I am a zero point Calvinist.

There’s no valid reason to be one.

Calvinism says faith comes by the regeneration of the elect by God, so that they are no longer spiritually dead - and then they believe.

But scripture says faith comes by hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17 - thus Calvin is wrong about how faith comes - and stating that regeneration precedes faith is diametrically opposed (backwards) to scripture, which is extremely clear that faith comes before salvation, and it’s how we access grace and are saved.

Another fact that falsifies reformed election dogma, is that there’s no irresistible grace, because the Holy Spirit, who draws us to Jesus, can be resisted- as Stephen told us in Acts.

 

[atpollard]

I do not believe a “Saint” would edit scripture to the point of rejecting those passages that warn about the dangers of backsliding. This is not what "Saints" of God do to Holy Writ.

I quoted scripture verbatim as it appeared in the translation I was reading (NASB at that moment, I believe).
I never rejected any biblical warnings about the dangers of “backsliding” (not a very scriptural word for someone claiming to care so much about what scripture actually says.)

QED: More false statements against the Saints.

You never answered the question: “Why do you make false accusations against the Saints?”

 

[atpollard]

Our sanctification is to abstain from sexual immorality.

Charles Spurgeon (one of the preeminent Reformed Baptist evangelists) never gave a speech advocating “our sanctification is to wallow in sexual immorality.” … You are refuting an argument that NOBODY is making.

 

[Curtis]

I quoted scripture verbatim as it appeared in the translation I was reading (NASB at that moment, I believe).
I never rejected any biblical warnings about the dangers of “backsliding” (not a very scriptural word for someone claiming to care so much about what scripture actually says.)

QED: More false statements against the Saints.

You never answered the question: “Why do you make false accusations against the Saints?”

The correct biblical term for a backslider, is reprobate.

As in Paul telling believers of their need to examine themselves to see whether they are still in the faith, or had become reprobates - and also stating that he has to subjugate his flesh daily, lest after preaching to others, he himself end up a reprobate.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


He warns that some of the church that think they’re in the faith can actually have become reprobates.


The word reprobates is ADOKIMOS in the Greek - castaway and rejected by God - which becomes important in the verse where Paul himself says he has to subjugate his flesh daily, lest after preaching salvation to others, he end up a castaway.


1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring itinto subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY.


The word castaway is also ADOKIMOS in the Greek - reprobate - castaway and rejected by God.


G96 (Strong)

ἀδόκιμος

adokimos

ad-ok'-ee-mos

From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless(literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

Total KJV occurrences: 8

Paul said he could end up a reprobate, and be castaway and rejected by God, if he didn’t subjugate his flesh with its sinful desires, daily.

John Wesley aptly exegetes 1 Corinthians 9:27:

This single text may give us a just notion of the scriptural doctrine of election and reprobation; and clearly shows us, that particular persons are not in holy writ represented as elected absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, or predestinated absolutely and unconditionally to eternal death; but that believers in general are elected to enjoy the Christian privileges on earth; which if they abuse, those very elect persons will become reprobate. St. Paul was certainly an elect person, if ever there was one; and yet he declares it was possible he himself might become a reprobate. Nay, he actually would have become such, if he had not thus kept his body under, even though he had been so long an elect person, a Christian, and an apostle.

This falls in line perfectly with what the apostle Peter wrote:

Peter says we must MAKE our calling and ELECTION sure, by ADDING to our faith the FRUIT of virtue, Godliness, and love (charity), and he says that IF WE DO that, we won’t FALL, and we will have an entrance into heaven.


That our election isn’t SURE until we MAKE it sure, by adding fruit to our faith, and will fall if we don’t make it sure, is fatal to reformed election doctrine aka Calvinism.


2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.


2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitfulin the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Paul never taught unconditional eternal security - in fact he taught the opposite.

He taught daily perseverance in the faith, of continuing to walk in the light, continuing to walk in the spirit, to continue to remain in Christ.

Maranatha

 

[Curtis]

Charles Spurgeon (one of the preeminent Reformed Baptist evangelists) never gave a speech advocating “our sanctification is to wallow in sexual immorality.” … You are refuting an argument that NOBODY is making.

Except if our sanctification is based on avoiding sexual sins, that SHREDS THIS OP about the P in TULIP, which is that nothing we do, or don’t do, can affect salvation.

OSAS and the P in TULIP are busted - if we commit sexual sins, we are not sanctified.

It’s just one more nail in John Calvin’s coffin as part of numerous nails that scripture puts in it, when interpreted absent the reformed dogma forced into its proof texts, and when the many scriptures they ignore are presented.

Maranatha

 

[Curtis]

How TULIP and Calvinism works:

In that doctrine, man is born totally depraved and spiritually dead, and as a dead man, cannot respond to the gospel or have any faith, until God First regenerates him and makes him alive, and then he believes.

In other words, first God saves the elect with a spiritual rebirth, then they believe.
(which is backwards, BTW - faith precedes grace/regeneration)

But the non elect have been predestined to damnation from the founding of the world, thus God withholds regeneration, making it impossible for them to believe, then damns them for their unbelief.

Therefore the vast majority of mankind will go to hell - since Jesus said FEW will be saved, and MOST will be lost - and they will be in torments forever because God decreed them there, arbitrarily, “having done neither good or bad”, solely because the God of Calvinism felt like making them “vessels fitted only for destruction” - and according to the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9, God also hates the non elect.

And that’s why Calvinism is an insult to the character and nature of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

How TULIP and Calvinism works:

In that doctrine, man is born totally depraved and spiritually dead, and as a dead man, cannot respond to the gospel or have any faith, until God First regenerates him and makes him alive, and then he believes.

In other words, first God saves the elect with a spiritual rebirth, then they believe.

But the non elect have been predestined to damnation from the founding of the world, thus God withholds regeneration, making it impossible for them to believe, then damns them for their unbelief.

Therefore the vast majority of mankind will go to hell - since Jesus said FEW will be saved, and MOST will be lost - and they will be in torments forever because God decreed them there, arbitrarily, “having done neither good or bad”, solely because the God of Calvinism felt like making them “vessels fitted only for destruction” - and according to the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9, God also hates the non elect.

And that’s why Calvinism is an insult to the character and nature of God.

Your last three posts are falsehoods, but it seems to make you feel good to keep repeating them.
You totally lack understanding.

 

[Curtis]

Your last three posts are falsehoods, but it seems to make you feel good to keep repeating them.
You totally lack understanding.

I suggest it’s you that lacks understanding.

It’s amazing so many of them don’t even understand the dogma they believe.

 

[Iconoclast]

I suggest it’s you that lacks understanding.

It’s amazing so many of them don’t even understand the dogma they believe.

you cannot give an accurate description of irresistible grace

 

[Cooper]

I quoted scripture verbatim as it appeared in the translation I was reading (NASB at that moment, I believe).
I never rejected any biblical warnings about the dangers of “backsliding” (not a very scriptural word for someone claiming to care so much about what scripture actually says.)

QED: More false statements against the Saints.

You never answered the question: “Why do you make false accusations against the Saints?”

The apostle Paul was a Saint of God, and he wrote what you and OSAS people reject regarding the dangers of backsliding. My advice is not to deny the writings of the Saints. See Curtis in post #372.
.

 

[Grailhunter]

The people that use terms like legalist or OSAS or grace haters are profiling themselves. People that believes in biblical morals are not going to use these terms…

Knowing the footprints of Satan. You cannot see Satan but you can see him in the actions and words of people. The focus and energy they put foreword to justify evil and evildoing....evil lifestyles.

The people that use these terms…you cannot bring up the word good to these people because they go bizerk. Being good or doing good deeds…for them you would think it was a crime. Christians against being good and doing good deeds….where do you think the source of that is from?

You bring up scriptures that discuss morals and sins and it is like presenting a cross to a vampire. They hate those scriptures! They want to silence those scriptures. And they want to silence anyone that is moral. They cannot cross out the scriptures that speak of morals and sins, so they attack and condemn those that quote them…attempting to silence the truth is part of our society now…the whole cancel culture thing…an attack on morals and values.

They comb the Bible looking for scriptures to support those beliefs, not intelligent enough know they are showing their dark colors. They are easy to spot. Condemning anything or anyone that stands up for morals or doing good. Footprints of Satan. Behind the words, it is generally some lifestyle sin they are trying to justify, homosexuality, or promiscuity, or drug use.

Now there are some misunderstandings. You are not going to find a scripture that says specially that if you do this or do that, that you will loose your salvation. If there were, we would not be having this conversation. Likewise you are not going to find a scripture that says Christians are exempt from Judgment Day. You are not going to find a scripture that says only unsaved people will go to Hell. Salvation is not a ticket to heaven, just like Grace is not a license to sin. Heaven will not be full of evil, because saved or not, evil will be judged by Christ on that day.

We choose Christ by choice and salvation is secure. We repent, ask forgiveness, and Christ forgives us. Most of us are not going to tax the parameters of Grace. Horrible sins that will send you to Hell...that is debatable. But the sins that are likely to get you are lifestyle sins. You cannot repent of something you have no intention of quitting. Christ knows your heart and true intent and you cannot fool him... Clairvoyance? Either way He knows what your going to do. So if you live a life of sin, you can count on standing in front of Christ with a ton of sins.

I am not addressing the Calvinist terms or beliefs because it is all blasphemy. May God have mercy on their souls.

 

[JunChosen]

But the non elect have been predestined to damnation from the founding of the world, thus God withholds regeneration, making it impossible for them to believe, then damns them for their unbelief.

FALSE STATEMENT! You will never find language in the Bible that states people go to hell not because they were not chosen or not regenerated making it impossible for them to believe.

People go to hell BECAUSE they are sinners!!!

To God Be The Glory