Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[Curtis]

you cannot give an accurate description of irresistible grace

Of course I can’t, BECAUSE THERES NO SUCH THING, as I can prove from scripture:

Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation, that grace is irresistible, and therefore the Holy Spirit is irresistible.


This is easily seen to be false.


Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.


They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4


Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:


Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.


Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!


This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.


Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.


Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who Jesus yearned would come to Him BUT THEY WOULD NOT (Matthew 23:37) and told them that the reason they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah when He came for them, is because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.


Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.


Salvation is not guaranteed from having faith, man has freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelites did, (to the point of KILLING HIM) when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.


There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.


Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior and by doing so, completely falsified John Calvin’s election dogma.


As Jesus said to them:


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Josh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.

Any questions?

 

[JunChosen]

This is easily seen to be false.

Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.
They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4

FALSE! Israel was CHOSEN to be the recipient of the Oracles of God and never as an elect nation.

Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.[/QUOTE]

Just that. Jesus is a Jew and His own countrymen received him not.

This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.

Again, National Israel is NOT the elect of God. There is however a remnant chosen by grace from every country of the world. Ro. 9:27.

This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.

There is no such a thing as "free will." The only humans who had "free will" were Adam and Eve. If no irresistible grace than consider what Jesus said in John 8:36, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior and by doing so, completely falsified John Calvin’s election dogma

Why do you insist National Israel to be God's elect? If they were they wouldn't have rejected Jesus as their Savior, that's an impossibility!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Iconoclast]

Of course I can’t, BECAUSE THERES NO SUCH THING, as I can prove from scripture:

Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation, that grace is irresistible, and therefore the Holy Spirit is irresistible.


This is easily seen to be false.


Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.


They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4


Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:


Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.


Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!


This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.


Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.


Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who Jesus yearned would come to Him BUT THEY WOULD NOT (Matthew 23:37) and told them that the reason they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah when He came for them, is because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.


Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.


Salvation is not guaranteed from having faith, man has freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelites did, (to the point of KILLING HIM) when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.


There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.


Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior and by doing so, completely falsified John Calvin’s election dogma.


As Jesus said to them:


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Josh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.

Any questions?

Not all Israel is of Israel.
If you understand this that would help clarify the issue for you.
The actual biblical teaching is found in several places.jn6:37-44.)
In acts7 Stephen explains that the unbelievers among the jews always resist....that is why they are going to be in eternal death.
Your verses are all about non elect persons.
God kept an ELECT REMNANT from among Israel.
You evidently would rather resist truth.

 

[JunChosen]

Not all Israel is of Israel.
If you understand this that would help clarify the issue for you.
The actual biblical teaching is found in several places.jn6:37-44.)
In acts7 Stephen explains that the unbelievers among the jews always resist....that is why they are going to be in eternal death.
Your verses are all about non elect persons.
God kept an ELECT REMNANT from among Israel.
You evidently would rather resist truth

I sow and you reap, good job.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Curtis]

FALSE! Israel was CHOSEN to be the recipient of the Oracles of God and never as an elect nation.

I gave the scripture reference, was it too hard to look it up?

The underlined scriptures are a link to the Bible on this forum, then use the BACK arrow to return.

They were Gods elect, chosen bride.

 

[Curtis]

FALSE! Israel was CHOSEN to be the recipient of the Oracles of God and never as an elect nation.

That’s the whole point - it’s impossible in Calvinism, not impossible in the Bible.

Peter refutes Calvinism when he said we MUST MAKE OUR ELECTION SURE to gain entrance into heaven:

Peter says we must MAKE our calling and ELECTION sure, by ADDING to our faith the FRUIT of virtue, Godliness, and love (charity), and he says that IF WE DO that, we won’t FALL, and we will have an entrance into heaven.


2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness (living a righteous life);


2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.


2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor UNFRUITFUL in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto youabundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


That our election isn’t SURE until we MAKE it sure, by adding fruit to our faith, and will fall if we don’t make it sure, is fatal to reformed election doctrine aka Calvinism.

Maranatha

 

[atpollard]

John Wesley aptly exegetes 1 Corinthians 9:27

funny.

 

[atpollard]

It’s just one more nail in John Calvin’s coffin

You do know that John has been dead a very long time … perhaps it is time to stop pounding nails into his coffin and just compare what the Doctrines of Grace claim with the scriptures that they advocate make those claims. Leave poor John to Rest In Peace (we certainly have).

 

[atpollard]

How TULIP and Calvinism works:

Another failed attempt by those that hate the Doctrines of Grace to explain what the Doctrines of Grace really teach to those that have actually studied them and seen that they affirm what Scripture teaches. Why can’t ANTI-CALVINISTS stick to claiming what they believe rather than mutilating what others believe?

 

[atpollard]

It’s amazing so many of them don’t even understand the dogma they believe.

Nonsense.

 

[atpollard]

The apostle Paul was a Saint of God, and he wrote what you and OSAS people reject regarding the dangers of backsliding.

What have I rejected regarding the dangers of backsliding?
Please quote me or let your false accusation be shown clearly to all.

My advice is not to deny the writings of the Saints.

I have denied no scripture.
I only reject opinions that claim to be scripture but are more often eisegesis.
My advice is not to make false accusations against the Saints. [Mat 12:33-37]

 

[Grailhunter]

Why can’t ANTI-CALVINISTS stick to claiming what they believe rather than mutilating what others believe?

That is easy to explain.
Religiously: I love God and I take a offense when people promotes a doctrine that blasphemes Him. God is not a monstrous puppet master.

Intellectually: The belief makes no sense....God decides before creation who will go to hell and who will be saved. It defies the purpose of Judgment Day, everything is judged before creation. Humanity under the complete control of an entity that denies free-will, it sounds like a sci-fi horror flick.

Self serving: And all this to edify themselves...Look at me! I am the elect!

Evil: I am the elect, I can do anything I want and still go to heaven.

Harmful: Calvinism is akin to OSAS. There are people that come to Christianity and are a mess and they want to straighten out their lives and live right. But they are headed off at the pass by Calvinists / OSAS preachers that say....no need to stop your messed up life, no need to stop sinning...Believe in Christ and you are guaranteed heaven because you know that no one believes unless they are called...predestined.

Calvinism blasphemes God and can ruin people's lives and lead them down a path to hell.

 

[JunChosen]

They were Gods elect, chosen bride.

Ancient/National Israel has NEVER been elected to become saved as a nation, nor are they the bride of Christ. Just like any other country in the world "there is a remnant chosen by grace."

That our election isn’t SURE until we MAKE it sure, by adding fruit to our faith, and will fall if we don’t make it sure, is fatal to reformed election doctrine aka Calvinism.

Have you not read that faith is a GIFT lest anyone should boast and that we cannot ADD anything to our salvation?

To God Be The Glory

 

[Cooper]

What have I rejected regarding the dangers of backsliding?
Please quote me or let your false accusation be shown clearly to all.

I have denied no script who disobey wwhho ure.
I only reject opinions that claim to be scripture but are more often eisegesis.
My advice is not to make false accusations against the Saints. [Mat 12:33-37]

I posted a load of scriptures that warn about the danger of backsliding from which there is no return. Even Calvin stressed the importance of persevering to the end. Adam is a warning from the foundation of the earth not to depart from God's commandments like Adam did, even if it is only one, especially if it is only one.

 

[Iconoclast]

Curtis,

Normally I do not like to interact with such false ideas, but I will demonstrate the falsehood now
Curtis seeks to deny bible teaching of irresistable grace, however me makes a caricature of the teaching showing he does not understand the terms being discussed. Curtis says this;

[Of course I can’t, BECAUSE THERES NO SUCH THING, as I can prove from scripture:
Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation,
that grace is irresistible,
and therefore the Holy Spirit is irresistible.]

Here, Curtis shows no understanding in that irresistable grace or effectual calling is only taught concerning elect sheep coming to saving knowledge of Jesus.
It is NOT speaking of those who resist right into hell. Multitudes resist unto death, but that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC.
Here is the actual confessional statement of the teaching;

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )


2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )



4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2;


[This is easily seen to be false.
Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.]

Nothing to do with the topic

[They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4]

Nothing to do with the topic

[Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:
Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.
Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:]

Not all Israel is of Israel

[Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!]

They were not effectually called, they resist unto death

[This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.]

These were not part of the elect remnant, they were not drawn by the Father;
jn6n :44.....no man can come to me unless the Father which sent me draw Him.


[Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.]

Not "appointed unto eternal life"...13:48

[This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.]

Free will is from human carnal philosophy, not once in scripture. Because you do not understand the teaching, you deny it over and over.
[Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who Jesus yearned would come to Him BUT THEY WOULD NOT (Matthew 23:37) and told them that the reason they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah when He came for them, is because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.]
They were not part of the elect remnant.
27 And Isaiah doth cry concerning Israel, `If the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, the remnant shall be saved;

28 for a matter He is finishing, and is cutting short in righteousness, because a matter cut short will the Lord do upon the land.

29 and according as Isaiah saith before, `Except the Lord of Sabaoth did leave to us a seed, as Sodom we had become, and as Gomorrah we had been made like.'

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye

These are the non elect who always resist, has nothing to do with the topic

[There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.]

Your denial of vital truth does not do away with it.


[Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior and by doing so, completely falsified John Calvin’s election dogma.]

If you knew your bible a little bit better you would know these things.
9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

 

[JunChosen]

Religiously: I love God and I take a offense when people promotes a doctrine that blasphemes Him. God is not a monstrous puppet master.

There goes your doctrine... religion. Have YOU not read that God told Ancient Israel to kill all men, women, and children who stood before them on their way to the promised land?

Intellectually: The belief makes no sense....God decides before creation who will go to hell and who will be saved. It defies

You will NOT find such language that God before creation willed people to hell. People go to hell BECAUSE they are sinners! In fact, if God did not intervene in our lives no one will become saved.

Self serving: And all this to edify themselves...Look at me! I am the elect!

You better believe it. Jesus said, "my sheep hears my voice and they follow me." And, "all that the Father giveth me shall come to me and I should lose none of them."

Harmful: Calvinism is akin to OSAS. There are people that come to Christianity and are a mess and they want to straighten out their lives and live right. But they are headed off at the pass by Calvinists / OSAS preachers that say....no need to stop your messed up life, no need to stop sinning...Believe in Christ and you are guaranteed heaven because you know that no one believes unless they are called...predestined.

And that is the whole matter! Believers are predestined to salvation before the foundation of the world, they are elect, chosen to be justified, and be blameless and set apart.

[QUOTE="Grailhunter, post: 1082923, member: 8260"]Calvinism blasphemes God and can ruin people's lives and lead them down a path to hell.[/QUOTE]

It is YOU and your kind that hinders and ruin people's lives BECAUSE you have no inkling, understanding, nor have the knowledge about the things of God!

Be like the Bereans who searched the Scripture to see if the Gospel taught by Paul were so.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Cooper]

pt2;


[This is easily seen to be false.
Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.]

Nothing to do with the topic

[They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4]

Nothing to do with the topic

[Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:
Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.
Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:]

Not all Israel is of Israel

[Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!]

They were not effectually called, they resist unto death

[This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.]

These were not part of the elect remnant, they were not drawn by the Father;
jn6n :44.....no man can come to me unless the Father which sent me draw Him.


[Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.]

Not "appointed unto eternal life"...13:48

[This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.]

Free will is from human carnal philosophy, not once in scripture. Because you do not understand the teaching, you deny it over and over.
[Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who Jesus yearned would come to Him BUT THEY WOULD NOT (Matthew 23:37) and told them that the reason they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah when He came for them, is because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.]
They were not part of the elect remnant.
27 And Isaiah doth cry concerning Israel, `If the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, the remnant shall be saved;

28 for a matter He is finishing, and is cutting short in righteousness, because a matter cut short will the Lord do upon the land.

29 and according as Isaiah saith before, `Except the Lord of Sabaoth did leave to us a seed, as Sodom we had become, and as Gomorrah we had been made like.'

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye

These are the non elect who always resist, has nothing to do with the topic

[There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.]

Your denial of vital truth does not do away with it.


[Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior and by doing so, completely falsified John Calvin’s election dogma.]

If you knew your bible a little bit better you would know these things.
9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Popycock. You deny freewill. What were the Israelites doing when they followed false gods? "Choose you, this day who you will serve."
.

 

[Grailhunter]

You will NOT find such language that God before creation willed people to hell. People go to hell BECAUSE they are sinners! In fact, if God did not intervene in our lives no one will become saved.

You are absolutely right! That is the truth. But Calvinism is Lie and there doctrines and beliefs are that God chooses whether you are saved or not, before the creation of anything.

And the rest of your post is just messed up. It is a horrible religion.

 

[Brakelite]

Deuteronomy 4:29
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Joshua 24:15
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
1 Chronicles 16:11
11 Seek the Lord and his strength, seek his face continually.
Psalm 14:2
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Proverbs 8:10
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
Isaiah 55:6
6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: