The first horseman of the Apocalypse

[marks]

Fullness of the Gentiles said: ↑

You obviously don't believe the New Testament



If you don't believe that the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are just as much Israel as Jews who believe in Jesus, and that no one who does not believe in Jesus is Israel, and that the 144,000 include all Gentiles and Jews who believe in Jesus but exclude all Jews and Gentiles who don't, then you don't believe the New Testament.

The whole point here that I'm making is that I hold what the New Testament says. Your problem with me is that I DO believe it, and you do not. You are the one who is saying these aren't 144,000, they aren't the children of Israel, they are not sealed in their forehead by an angel, theyre are not men, not virgins, is there any part of it that you DO believe??

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

you do realize, right, that I posted a passage that clearly calls people Israel, who are not believers? You saw that? Does it mean anything to you? And that there are many many more just like it, where Isreal refers to the children of Jacob, without regard of their faith or lack thereof?

Much love!

Well it's no wonder. You teach what the New Testament - Jesus, Paul, John the Baptist, do not teach.

So it's no wonder. You reached the bottom long before this debate started.

 

[Curtis]

When God shuts the door of the ark He shuts the door. It does not matter how many Jews and Gentiles are left outside through their unbelief. Those in the ark when the door has been shut by God are Jews and Gentiles who believe, represented by the 144,000 and the multitude in Revelation 7:9 which you don't realize (or refuse to acknowledge) tells you how many the 144,000 are. The number is as literal as the seal of God is a branding on their foreheads. The seal of God is the Holy Spirit. It's not physical. Yet you insist on making the 144,000 a literal number.

Except that’s completely wrong.

First John sees the specific number of 144,000 who are on standing on earth, then he sees ANOTHER group of people who appear in heaven, too large to count, who came out of the great tribulation as martyrs for refusing to take the Mark of the beast.

The 144,000 are on earth, hence God telling the angel not to do anything to the earth before they are sealed and protected from harm.

The uncountable crowd is in heaven.

Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

There’s unequivocally two different groups there.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[marks]

"Not all of Israel is Israel", demonstrates within this simple phrase the dual use of the name Israel, one being the ethnic nation, and the other being the faithful of that nation.


Romans 10:16-21 KJV
16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19) But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20) But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21) But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

Except that’s completely wrong.

First John sees the specific number of 144,000 who are on standing on earth, then he sees ANOTHER group of people who appear in heaven, too large to count, who came out of the great tribulation as martyrs for refusing to take the Mark of the beast.

The 144,000 are on earth, hence God telling the angel not to do anything to the earth before they are sealed and protected from harm.

The uncountable crowd is in heaven.

Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

There’s unequivocally two different groups there.

Shalom Aleichem

Those tribes are not Jews. Only Judah are Jews, and only Judah + Benjamin are the house of Judah. @Curtis Also, only the saved Jews and saved Benjamites are included in their tribes. The rest are outside the ark.

 

[Zao is life]

"Not all of Israel is Israel", demonstrates within this simple phrase the dual use of the name Israel, one being the ethnic nation, and the other being the faithful of that nation.

I've heard people say that before. It's 100% eisegesis and a totally false claim.

Not all who are (genetic descendants of) Israel are Israel. It says what it says, until it gets twisted to mean there are two Israel's in God's eyes. In God's eyes the only Israel are those who through faith in Christ are in Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

Fullness of the Gentiles said: ↑

You obviously don't believe the New Testament



If you don't believe that the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are just as much Israel as Jews who believe in Jesus, and that no one who does not believe in Jesus is Israel, and that the 144,000 include all Gentiles and Jews who believe in Jesus but exclude all Jews and Gentiles who don't, then you don't believe the New Testament.

i should be able to get back to you today. i like to dwell on Scripture and let it saturate my mind so i can see the bigger picture

 

[marks]

I've heard people say that before. It's 100% eisegesis and a totally false claim.

Not all who are (genetic descendants of) Israel are Israel. It says what it says, until it gets twisted to mean there are two Israel's in God's eyes. In God's eyes the only Israel are those who through faith in Christ are in Christ.

I simply point to the way the name is used in the Bible. Take it or leave it.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

I simply point to the way the name is used in the Bible. Take it or leave it.

Much love!

marks, something else to know about this little 'living stone' in which we are attached by Grace and Salvation , is this:
i a not afraid to be wrong - WHY? - because His Love is all about bringing us closer to Him in truth and understanding.
So, if i a wrong on a issue and receive correction/adjustment - then i benefit and so does the whole Body.
i do not see the word 'repent' as a bad thing or negative - i see it as POSITIVE in this way: 'Hey Friend - Look over here, the fishing is better on this side of the boat.' or 'Why use that dull axe, when you can use this Sharp chainsaw to get it done, with less effort and in time for dinner.'

 

[marks]

marks, something else to know about this little 'living stone' in which we are attached by Grace and Salvation , is this:
i a not afraid to be wrong - WHY? - because His Love is all about bringing us closer to Him in truth and understanding.
So, if i a wrong on a issue and receive correction/adjustment - then i benefit and so does the whole Body.
i do not see the word 'repent' as a bad thing or negative - i see it as POSITIVE in this way: 'Hey Friend - Look over here, the fishing is better on this side of the boat.' or 'Why use that dull axe, when you can use this Sharp chainsaw to get it done, with less effort and in time for dinner.'

Amen!!

 

[marks]

marks, something else to know about this little 'living stone' in which we are attached by Grace and Salvation , is this:
i a not afraid to be wrong - WHY? - because His Love is all about bringing us closer to Him in truth and understanding.
So, if i a wrong on a issue and receive correction/adjustment - then i benefit and so does the whole Body.
i do not see the word 'repent' as a bad thing or negative - i see it as POSITIVE in this way: 'Hey Friend - Look over here, the fishing is better on this side of the boat.' or 'Why use that dull axe, when you can use this Sharp chainsaw to get it done, with less effort and in time for dinner.'

There is no loss in learning something.

Some get all wrapped up in their pride, and can't stand the idea of being seen as "wrong". I find that here as people double down on their bad behavior when they feel backed into a corner.

But that sort of feeling is completely out of place. Learning truth calls us out of the shadows, it doesn't push us into them.

People get ahold of ideas and are unwilling to let them go.

For me, the only goal is to understand the Bible in whatever it says. I'm not about particular doctrines, only that I hold the correct ones according to the Word.

Much love!

 

[marks]

marks, something else to know about this little 'living stone' in which we are attached by Grace and Salvation , is this:
i a not afraid to be wrong - WHY? - because His Love is all about bringing us closer to Him in truth and understanding.
So, if i a wrong on a issue and receive correction/adjustment - then i benefit and so does the whole Body.
i do not see the word 'repent' as a bad thing or negative - i see it as POSITIVE in this way: 'Hey Friend - Look over here, the fishing is better on this side of the boat.' or 'Why use that dull axe, when you can use this Sharp chainsaw to get it done, with less effort and in time for dinner.'

Or perhaps more to the point, the better we understand the Bible, the better we will have relationship with God.

God loves us, and intends us to have a personal and intimate relationship with Him. How do we feel when those we love persist in holding wrong ideas about us? We can see how that prevents our beloveds from really receiving from us all we want to give.

And while we can have good relationships with God even holding wrong ideas - which I feel certain we all do - I've come to see that as I learn new things from the Bible, and correct old wrong ideas, I see more of God's love for me, and God draws me into Him through discovery in His Word.

An open heart, an open mind, maybe that's the only thing we can contribute!

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Or perhaps more to the point, the better we understand the Bible, the better we will have relationship with God.

God loves us, and intends us to have a personal and intimate relationship with Him. How do we feel when those we love persist in holding wrong ideas about us? We can see how that prevents our beloveds from really receiving from us all we want to give.

And while we can have good relationships with God even holding wrong ideas - which I feel certain we all do - I've come to see that as I learn new things from the Bible, and correct old wrong ideas, I see more of God's love for me, and God draws me into Him through discovery in His Word.

An open heart, an open mind, maybe that's the only thing we can contribute!

Much love!

AMEN - this is the love in His fellowship for us. Do i fail at times? Yes Do i change my mind(repent) - YES

 

[David in NJ]

I simply point to the way the name is used in the Bible. Take it or leave it.

Much love!

i am still churning the butter - and busy with much needed work - this is not a short/quick type of answer

 

[marks]

i am still churning the butter - and busy with much needed work - this is not a short/quick type of answer

The best argument I think I've heard showing the modern 'Gentile' Christians to be Israel was from @Keraz , I don't remember the thread, but he gave a pretty good presentation, I thought, centering around the verse in Amos,

Amos 9:9 KJV
For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

So that we who believe in Christ are Israel, because we already were.

This is also, I think, the best argument for predestination to salvation, that while we see disparate peoples getting saved, and wonder, why these, it's because they are these sifted ones, promised to not fall upon the earth.

For the record, I don't think either of those ideas are correct.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

I simply point to the way the name is used in the Bible. Take it or leave it.

Much love!

I don't like it when I offend you, but as my German aunt used to say in her thick accent, "Sorry, but I must speak my chest".

 

[Zao is life]

There is no loss in learning something.

Some get all wrapped up in their pride, and can't stand the idea of being seen as "wrong". I find that here as people double down on their bad behavior when they feel backed into a corner.

But that sort of feeling is completely out of place. Learning truth calls us out of the shadows, it doesn't push us into them.

People get ahold of ideas and are unwilling to let them go.

For me, the only goal is to understand the Bible in whatever it says. I'm not about particular doctrines, only that I hold the correct ones according to the Word.

Much love!

I wasn't being very diplomatic with the words I chose to answer what you were saying when I disagreed, and I apologize if you feel bullied. I can tell you have the love of Christ. The fruit of the Spirit is far more important than knowledge (as you point out), and I do believe you want to know the truth as much as I do.

PS: I used to believe too, that God "will not forget the covenant He made with Abraham's seed" until I realized that God indeed remembered His covenant with Abraham's seed - the house of Israel and the house of Judah - when Jesus died on the cross. They either reject it or accept it. Rejecting it means losing their covenant relationship with God, because there is only one mediator between God and man and only one name by which anyone may be saved. There's no difference between the Gentiles and the Jews. God did remember His covenant with Israel. Christ's blood forever proves it.

 

[marks]

I don't like it when I offend you, but as my German aunt used to say in her thick accent, "Sorry, but I must speak my chest".

Well, maybe I wasn't being too clear myself then. No offense, as they say, "no skin off my nose". There comes the time to just say, here's the info, do with it what you will.

It was your statement about eisegesis. The fact is, I was pointing to the word usage in that post. And it is exegesis to say, there is one use of the name Israel that is not the same as the other use of Israel. Not all are Israel who are Israel. This is on it's face two usages.

Now, what that may mean to you, or mean to me, it doesn't change the word usage.

Much love!

 

[marks]

and I apologize if you feel bullied.

No apology needed, I did not feel bullied. No worries! And thank you!

Much love!

 

[marks]

PS: I used to believe too, that God "will not forget the covenant He made with Abraham's seed" until I realized that God indeed remembered His covenant with Abraham's seed - the house of Israel and the house of Judah - when Jesus died on the cross. They either reject it or accept it. Rejecting it means losing their covenant relationship with God, because there is only one mediator between God and man and only one name by which anyone may be saved. There's no difference between the Gentiles and the Jews. God did remember His covenant with Israel. Christ's blood forever proves it.

How do you see God's land promise to Abaham?

Genesis 15:12-18 KJV
12) And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13) And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14) And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15) And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16) But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17) And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18) In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Much love!