Do you accept this a Biblical fact or fiction?:

[Wrangler]

Personally I have some issues with one's like the NLT and the VOICE, I find they seem to miss a lot of what is there in trying to make it easier to apprehend.

You might have that backwards. The KJV is one of, if not the most inaccurate translations available today for a host of reasons.

It puts things into verses that are not in the original language text.

 

[marks]

ESV markets itself as the most literal translation available. NSRV is the only translation approved by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants.

The Bible is highly figurative, rendering adherence to literal translations a bit silly. Frankly, a literal translation does not render proper 21st century American.

A Japanese explained they flip the order of subjects and objects. In Spanish, they reverse the order of noun adjective. Where we say large house, they say house large.

I guess thought translations, which translate the whole sentence rather than just the words, were made for people like me.

Make a Blessed Day!

I got so used to working with the Greek, after reading from so many different translations, I've just gravitated to the KJV because it reads the most like reading the Greek, to me.

But yes, we're all different, and God has something just right for each of us.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No sir they didn't. They all knew who God is. May I ask if you know what Christ means Chris?

Christ means Messiah.

 

[marks]

You might have that backwards. The KJV is one of, if not the most inaccurate translations available today for a host of reasons.

It puts things into verses that are not in the original language text.

I guess we all have our opinions on that. Any translation, I find myself reflecting on the Greek wording in places that don't seem to fit the English. But having studies the versions and translations and manuscripts, I'm sold on the King James myself. This wasn't a quickly formed opinion. I've used a variety of Bibles as my primary Bible over the years, with avid comparisons between 20-25 translations. I have, correction, did have, I think, 28 translations I consulted and read, with about 15 of them routinely.

Every translation adds words, and in some cases removes words, it just the way translation is.

Just to say . . . I've never learned any Hebrew, only Koine Greek.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

for I am God, and there is none else.

You do know that singular pronouns do not refer to 3 persons, right?

 

[Wrangler]

Isaiah 45:21-25 KJV

There is One God.

Philippians 2:9-11 KJV

I take that you reference these parallel verses to imply 2 beings are one in the same being instead of the traditional ‘one through another’ Bible motif. For instance, God did not literally destroy Sodom and Gomorrah but ordered angels to do it.

This does not make angels God.

 

[ChristisGod]

Visit the rules if you don't believe me. This site upholds the Deity of Jesus in our Triune God.

Obfuscate and ignore and question and wriggle out of it. Justify yourself. But you are still in violation of your agreement you made when you joined the board.

Much love!

Amen

 

[ChristisGod]

You do know that singular pronouns do not refer to 3 persons, right?

What does us, we and our mean ?

are they singular or plural ?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Your problem when reading the Bible is that it’s impossible for you to be unbiased and objective. You read the Bible with an assumption that Jesus is not God therefor making it your ambition and obsession to disprove it at all costs . You are incapable of allowing God to communicate truth.

hope this helps !!!

I'm not making anything my ambition it's just I believe what's God inspired men to write down in the scriptures, like what the Apostle Peter said about Jesus, that he is the Christ, the Son of the living God. At John 3:16 that says that all those that believe or exercise faith that the True God gave his Only-Begotten Son will not perish but have everlasting life. What I'm saying that what Jesus said at John 20:17, is completely clear and accurate. You have said nothing concerning John 20:17 that shows what Jesus said at John 20:17 is inaccurate. Jesus isn't ignorant he knows how to convey information clearly and accurately, so as I said, what Jesus said at John 20:17 is clear and accurate. The Apostle Paul was inspired to write in Romans 15:5, 6 and 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4 and he was inspired to write that Jesus has a Father and God.

 

[marks]

I take that you reference these parallel verses to imply 2 beings are one in the same being instead of the traditional ‘one through another’ Bible motif. For instance, God did not literally destroy Sodom and Gomorrah but ordered angels to do it.

This does not make angels God.

I'm not sure I follow. I'm not trying to say angels are God.

Angels visited the city, and removed Lot and his wife and daughters. Then God destroyed the cities of the plain sending fire and brimstone.

Genesis 19:24-25 KJV
24) Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25) And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You do know that singular pronouns do not refer to 3 persons, right?

Are you willing to stand by the inverse of that statement?

Let us make man in our image.

Much love!

 

[tigger 2]

Post #97, Roland Nolette:

"Echad means one as singular, but also one as a "plural one" . Hard to define it. It gives the sense that God though one is formed of more than one. Take for example a baseball team. It has a roster of 26 individuals, but yet they make up one ball team."

..................................

I've already given the definitions of echad by noted Hebrew scholars. None of them list "plural oneness." Where do you find this in recognized scholarly Hebrew lexicons? I have already given you a few words which can mean "plural oneness." Why would these words not be used in place of so many uses of echad for God if "plural oneness" was meant?

Further emphasizing the impropriety of this “plural oneness” interpretation of echad are the many trinitarian renderings of Deut. 6:4. In the dozens of different trinitarian Bible translations that I have examined none of them have rendered Deut. 6:4 (or Mark 12:29) in such a way as to show anything even faintly resembling a “plural oneness”!!

Even the highly trinitarian The Living Bible, which, being a paraphrase Bible, is able to (and frequently does) take great liberties with the literal Greek and Hebrew meanings in order to make better trinitarian interpretations, renders Deut. 6:4 as “Jehovah is our God, Jehovah alone.” Notice that there’s not even a hint of a “plural oneness” Jehovah!

The equally trinitarian (and nearly as “freely” translated as The Living Bible) Good News Bible (GNB) renders it: “The LORD - and the LORD alone - is our God.” - Compare the equally “free-handed” (and trinitarian) The Amplified Bible.

And even among the more literal trinitarian translations of Deut 6:4 we find:

“The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.” - New Revised Standard Version.

“The LORD is our God, the LORD alone!” - New American Bible.

“The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.” - The Holy Bible in the Language of Today, Beck (Lutheran).

“Yahweh our God is the one, the only Yahweh.” - New Jerusalem Bible.

“Yahweh is our God, - Yahweh alone.” - The Emphasized Bible, Rotherham.

“The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.” - An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed).

“The Eternal, the Eternal alone, is our God.” - A New Transation, Moffatt .

The trinitarian ASV (also the RSV) gives 4 different possible renderings of Deut. 6:4. One of them is identical with The Living Bible, and none of them includes an understanding of a “plural oneness” God!

The paraphrased The Living Bible also renders Mark 12:29 (where Jesus quotes Deut. 6:4 and an excellent spot for him to reveal a “trinity” God --- or even just a “plural oneness” God) as: “The Lord our God is the one and only God.” Notice the further explanation of the intended meaning of this scripture at Mark 12:32, 34. “’... you have spoken a true word in saying that there is only one God and no other...’ Realizing this man’s understanding, Jesus said to him, ‘You are not far from the Kingdom of God.’”

Why doesn’t this highly interpretive trinitarian paraphrase Bible (or any other Bible for that matter) bring out a “plural oneness” meaning at these scriptures (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29) if that can be a proper interpretation for echad?

Surely, if the trinitarian scholars who translated this Bible had thought there was even the slightest justification for an echad = “plural oneness” interpretation, they would have rendered it that way: “Jehovah is a composite unity;” or “Jehovah is the United One;” or “Jehovah is a plural oneness;” etc.

Instead they have clearly shown that God (who inspired it), Moses (who wrote it under inspiration), and even Jesus himself (who taught that it was part of the most important commandment of all - Mark 12:28-29, LB; GNB; etc.) intended this scripture to show God as a single person only!

Similarly, the three annotated trinitarian study Bibles I own would certainly explain any intended “multiple-oneness” meaning for echad at Deut. 6:4 (if there were any possibility of such an interpretation). But the extremely trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., gives no hint of such an understanding of echad in its footnote for Deut. 6:4 (or anywhere else). And the trinitarian The New Oxford Annotated Bible, 1977 ed., likewise gives no hint of such an understanding in its footnote for Deut. 6:4 (or anywhere else). And that trinitarian favorite: The NIV Study Bible, 1985, also gives no hint of such a meaning for echad in its footnote for Deut. 6:4 (or anywhere else).

The only possible reason for all these trinitarian study Bibles ignoring this “proof” is that it simply is not true!

 

[Wrangler]

What does us, we and our mean ?

are they singular or plural ?

God is referred to using singular pronouns 10,000 times in Scripture. One or 2 vague plural verses do not overcome that.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not sure I follow. I'm not trying to say angels are God.

I think you do follow. The language of the Bible is one being does things through another being. We all understand that.

Trinitarians want to pretend in the case of Jesus, he is the being who sent him. Do you follow?

 

[Wrangler]

Are you willing to stand by the inverse of that statement?

Let us make man in our image.

Much love!

Sure! Again, God is referred to using singular pronouns 10,000 times in Scripture. A couple of vague plural verses does not overcome that.

A couple of valid Alternative explanations is God was using the royal “we.” Or he was talking to Angels or other heavenly beings.

 

[keithr]

The Lord Jesus Christ was NOT Created - He always existed and is Eternal - No beginning - No end

Please prove that using verses from the Bible.

"firstborn over all Creation" refers to His Resurrection of His physical Body that died on the Cross for our sins.

No, Colossians 1:18 (three verses later), "He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence", is refering to Jesus' resurrection. "Firstborn of all creation" is referring to his creation/birth.

 

[David in NJ]

Please prove that using verses from the Bible.

No, Colossians 1:18 (three verses later), "He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence", is refering to Jesus' resurrection. "Firstborn of all creation" is referring to his creation/birth.

Why do you say "No" to Scripture???

When did the Apostle Paul write Colossians - before or after Christ's Resurrection???

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. 19For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

The Holy Spirit through Paul states that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Servant who humbled Himself and took on a mortal body and with His Body He submitted to the Father to suffer and die for our sins and because He committed no sin, death could not hold Him - HE is the Firstborn over all creation = the Firstborn from among the dead.

This is TRUTH - If you believe anything other you are believing a lie.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6

IMMANUEL = GOD with us, Everlasting FATHER, the Mighty GOD
In the beginning GOD - Genesis 1:1
In the beginning the WORD was GOD - John 1:1

Elohim Abraham Elohim Isaac Elohim Jacob
GOD Father GOD Son GOD Holy Spirit

This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation. Exodus 3: 15

You know, you can always change your mind so that it agrees with GOD. i do it all the time - it's called LIFE from the dead.

 

[keithr]

Christ means Messiah.

No, that's not quite correct. Yes, John 1:41 (WEB) says,

“We have found the Messiah!” (which is, being interpreted, Christ).​

however, Messiah is the English transliteration of the Hebrew word mashiyac, which means 'anointed'. So Christ means 'anointed'. Jesus was anointed by God:

Luke 4:18 (WEB): “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim release to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to deliver those who are crushed,
Hebrews 1:9 (WEB): You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”

He was also anointed to become king over the Kingdom of God, Revelation 12:10 (WEB):

I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ has come; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.​

 

[David in NJ]

No, that's not quite correct. Yes, John 1:41 (WEB) says,

“We have found the Messiah!” (which is, being interpreted, Christ).​

however, Messiah is the English transliteration of the Hebrew word mashiyac, which means 'anointed'. So Christ means 'anointed'. Jesus was anointed by God:

Luke 4:18 (WEB): “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim release to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to deliver those who are crushed,
Hebrews 1:9 (WEB): You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”

He was also anointed to become king over the Kingdom of God, Revelation 12:10 (WEB):

I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ has come; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.​

YES, our God who came to earth as the Son of God - IMMANUEL = GOD with us, Everlasting FATHER, the Mighty GOD . Isa9:6

Elohim Father annointed the Elohim Son of God who became the son of man = as a physical servant to the Father He was Anointed to preach the Good News to the world. = all THREE Identities of Elohim are present here can you SEE them???

Even the Son who is IN HEAVEN.....Gospel of John 3:13

 

[keithr]

When did the Apostle Paul write Colossians - before or after Christ's Resurrection???

Obviously after. But he was writing about things that happened before his resurrection, way before!

The Holy Spirit through Paul states that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Servant who humbled Himself and took on a mortal body and with His Body He submitted to the Father to suffer and die for our sins and because He committed no sin, death could not hold Him - HE is the Firstborn over all creation = the Firstborn from among the dead.

No, he writes "firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created". (Or as the KJV puts it, "firstborn of every creature".)
And, "firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence".
It's two seperate points that Paul is making.

This is TRUTH - If you believe anything other you are believing a lie.

You saying that "Firstborn over all creation = the Firstborn from among the dead" does not make that the truth.

(The rest of your reply is irrelevant to the discussion of the firstborn of all creation.)