Do you accept this a Biblical fact or fiction?:

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keithr

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Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness - God wasn't talking to the angels.
Quite right, because the angels weren't involved in the creation. We're told who was involved in the creation in Colossians 1 (WEB):

15) who [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16) For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.​

So God was clearly talking to His Son, Jesus, in Genesis 1:26. Genesis 1 records God instructing Jesus on what to create. Colossians 1:16 also tells us that Jesus created the angels (before the world and universe was made). Job 38 confirms that the angels already existed when the earth was created:

4) “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if you have understanding.
5) Who determined its measures, if you know? Or who stretched the line on it?
6) Whereupon were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7) when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

Note that Colossians 1:15 tells us that Jesus was the "firstborn of all creation" (or "over all creation"), so he was the first to be created and was entitled to a double portion of his Father's inheritance (according to the Law of Moses).

You do not understand "Let us make man in Our Image, according to Our Likeness - in Genesis
Or perhaps you don't understand it?!

Genesis is the foundation for understanding.
I agree.
 
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Robert Gwin

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Then your approach to reading and studying the Bible is with a bias. That tells me you are closed to the Holy Spirits leading you into all truth. Since numerous places in the Old and New Testament refer to the Son as God you are closed - minded. No one can convince you otherwise and the Son must remove the salve from your eyes so you can see the Glory that is hidden in Christ. Right now your mind/heart is veiled to the Person of Christ. See 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

I could post 50 passages declaring the Sons Deity and you would reject everyone of them because you have already concluded that the Son cannot be God which is a false premise. Scripture must determine ones beliefs and not impose your ideas upon the text. The text must determine truth.

hope this helps !!!

Truth is still truth, all of the Apostles knew who God is, and believed Jesus' teachings on who God is, as well as who he is. I answer exactly the same way the apostle Peter answered when Jesus asked him point blank who he is, Jesus is the son of the living God Jehovah.
 

Robert Gwin

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lol x 100
Why is it you do not believe the Word that was God in the beginning? - this same Word became flesh and we beheld His Glory, Full of Grace and TRUTH = the only begotten Son of God.

Because the Word was never God in the beginning, as the verse states he was with God, and as you go on to acknowledge the begotten Son of Jehovah, who is God.
 

Robert Gwin

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This topic is not allowed according to the board rules.

What? One is not allowed to talk Scripture here? Doesn't make sense to me. Why would it be called Bible Study Forum if that is the case.
 

Wrangler

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@Wrangler, what do you think of verses that state or imply that Jesus is God? Here are two.

First, there is absolutely no verse in scripture that states Jesus is God, period. There are many verses that explicitly state God is alone, the LORD, our Father. And there are many verses where Jesus himself said God is greater than him. As for the implied verses ...

30 I and my Father are one.

Trinitarians deliberately confuse:
A. Being on the same page as another
B. Being the same being.

John 17:22 says we are also one with God. That does not make us God.

Before Abraham was, I am.

This is a malicious False Alternative. Trinitarians assert there can be no possible explanation for this verse other than Jesus must be a deity. There are many other alternatives.

Is Jesus talking literally? So, much of the Bible is written using figurative language. It's difficult to discern. For instance, in another thread another poster delved into the burning bush and the destruction of Sodom and Gomora. Are they done by God or Angels? There are verses that appear to contradict unless one recognizes how figurative language is used, which we still do today. For instance, we say Hitler killed 4 M Jews. Fact is, Hitler did not literally kill anyone. We give Hitler credit for this because he commanded it. Likewise, was Jesus talking about God's plan for the Messiah in this passage?

Another valid interpretation is that all humans exist pre-
carmate.

Another valid interpretation is that all heavenly beings are immortal. See GE 1:26.

Another valid interpretation is straight up theology; just because Jesus existed prior to Abraham does not mean he is the Father, the the LORD and Creator of all things, almighty God.

Reconciling this verse with the fact that Jesus was a creation as Colossians 1:15 tells us Jesus was the first born of all creation, the "I am" before Abraham verse does not mean Jesus was not created but simply existed before Abraham. To conclude otherwise, is an extrapolation beyond the text of John 8:58. Hope this helps.
 

Robert Gwin

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Both are true, but you omitted two other critical truths found in the Bible: (1) Jesus is God and (2) God is the triune Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Bible doesn't contradict sir, therefore does not say what you say it does.
 

Robert Gwin

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Yes??

I must be missing something or this thread is clearly above my paygrade.

Im sure there is a grand theological statement here that is completely escaping me right now.

The only thing I can think is that you're implying that Jesus is not fully God.

Do those verses indicate that to you Maam?
 

ChristisGod

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Truth is still truth, all of the Apostles knew who God is, and believed Jesus' teachings on who God is, as well as who he is. I answer exactly the same way the apostle Peter answered when Jesus asked him point blank who he is, Jesus is the son of the living God Jehovah.
The scriptures I posted showed the error of your post, no further comment was necessary.
 
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marks

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What? One is not allowed to talk Scripture here? Doesn't make sense to me. Why would it be called Bible Study Forum if that is the case.

Visit the rules if you don't believe me. This site upholds the Deity of Jesus in our Triune God.

Obfuscate and ignore and question and wriggle out of it. Justify yourself. But you are still in violation of your agreement you made when you joined the board.

Much love!
 
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marks

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The below clearly outlines the core, closed-handed, and Christian orthodox issues that we expect members of Christianity Board to uphold. We accept that this declaration essentially defines Christianity for Christianity Board. Disagreement with the below, we believe, places one outside the realm of reasonable orthodox Christianity.

We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a completely sinless human life and offered himself freely on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all, according to God’s plan revealed from the beginning. After three days, Jesus arose from the dead to demonstrate his power over death. He ascended to heaven to await his future return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-25, John 1:1-5, John 14:10-30, Acts 1:9-11, Romans 1:3-4, I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Timothy 6:14-15, Titus 2:3, Hebrews 4:14-15)

We believe that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son (Jesus). He is present in this world as an intercessor to make men and women aware of their need for Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer from the moment of salvation. He empowers the Christian with strength for living, understanding the truth, witnessing to others, and in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, John 16:7-13, Acts 1:8, I Corinthians 2:12, I Corinthians 3:16, II Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-21)

Christianity Board Statement of Faith
 

marks

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John 14:28; 1 Cor 11:3 Not equal even after his return to heaven. Bible does not contradict sir.

The only reason you present these verses to denigrate Jesus Christ as a "created thing" is because you deny the truth in Philippians 2, that Jesus humbled Himself, taking the form of a servant, being found fashioned as a man.

You are correct. The Bible does not contradict itself. But it does contradict this false teaching that Jesus Christ, by Whom all things were created which were created, was Himself created, and is not the Creator.

Jesus is Almight God, Creator of everything, Creator of you, and you will have to face Him on that basis.

Much love!
 

Wrangler

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Jesus humbled Himself, taking the form of a servant

Form? There are several verses that star God chose Jesus as his servant. No form in the text.

Acts 17:31
Complete Jewish Bible

31 For he has set a Day when he will judge the inhabited world, and do it justly, by means of a man whom he has designated. And he has given public proof of it by resurrecting this man from the dead.”
 

marks

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Form? There are several verses that star God chose Jesus as his servant. No form in the text.

Acts 17:31
Complete Jewish Bible

31 For he has set a Day when he will judge the inhabited world, and do it justly, by means of a man whom he has designated. And he has given public proof of it by resurrecting this man from the dead.”

Why do you cherry pick translations anyway?

But what I was referring to was,

Philippians 2:5-11 KJV
5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Have you considered what it means that Christ "became obedient"? What was He before that? The Sovereign?

Much Love!
 
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Ronald Nolette

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You and I seem to be in the minority here Ron


But knowing that th eONE God is manifested in three entities we call Father, Son and Holy Spirit They all are the one living God (see the difference for th eword one in the hebrew with echad v. yachid)

Te fact that Jesus is called Jehovah and the Holy Spirit is called God they are the one true god. Equal in essence or divinity, but different in position or autrhority.

The Father is above the Son and Spirit in authority and exaltation.
The Son is above the Spirit in ezaltation.
The spirit leads believers to worship the Father and son and pray to the Father.
 
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tigger 2

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But knowing that th eONE God is manifested in three entities we call Father, Son and Holy Spirit They all are the one living God (see the difference for th eword one in the hebrew with echad v. yachid)

Te fact that Jesus is called Jehovah and the Holy Spirit is called God they are the one true god. Equal in essence or divinity, but different in position or autrhority.

The Father is above the Son and Spirit in authority and exaltation.
The Son is above the Spirit in ezaltation.
The spirit leads believers to worship the Father and son and pray to the Father.
.......................................
In addition to insisting that echad means “plural oneness” some also insist that, if God had intended the meaning of “absolute oneness” (singleness, only one individual) at Deut. 6:4, he would have used the word yachid (or yacheed).

So let’s examine the intended meanings of echad and yachid.

First, it certainly wouldn’t be surprising to find that some noted trinitarian authority on Biblical Hebrew had written somewhere that echad means “united or plural oneness.” but I haven’t found one yet!

Here is what I have found written about echad by authorities on Biblical Hebrew:

The only definition given for echad in the very trinitarian New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance is: “a prim[ary] card[inal] number; one”. We find no “plural oneness” there!

The highly respected Biblical Hebrew authority, Gesenius, says that echad is “a numeral having the power of an adjective, one.” He then lists the various meanings of echad as:

“(1) The same,”

“(2) first,”

“(3) some one,”

“(4) it acts the part of an indefinite article,”

“(5) one only of its kind,”

“(6) when repeated [echad ... echad] ‘one ... another’,”

“(7) [K echad] AS one man.” [The initial consonant of this word, “K,” actually means “as” or “like,” so in this special form the meaning is close to that of a plural oneness. But this is not the form used at Deut. 6:4 !! ]

Gesenius also lists a plural form of the word (achadim,) which means “joined in one, united.” This, too, is not the form used at Deut. 6:4 which context shows, instead, to have meaning #5 above. - See Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, #259, Baker Book House. Surely, if God (or Jehovah) were really a union of persons, a united one, this form which truly means “united one” would have been used to describe “Him” repeatedly in the Holy Scriptures. But it and all other words with similar meanings were never used for God (or Jehovah)!

By using a good Bible Concordance (such as Strong’s or Young’s) we can find all the uses of echad in the Bible. Unfortunately (due to space limitations), Young’s and Strong’s both list the rare plural form (achadim,) and the “AS one” (Kechad,) form along with the common singular form (echad) without distinguishing among them.

Nevertheless, since both the plural form and the kechad form are used quite rarely (see Ezek. 37:17 and 2 Chronicles 5:13 for examples), we can see that the overwhelming majority of the uses of echad listed in these concordances (over 500) obviously have the meaning of singleness just as we normally use the word “one” today.

If you should find a scripture listed as using echad in your concordance that definitely has the meaning “plural oneness” or “together,” or “as one,” you should check it out in an interlinear Hebrew-English Bible. If the word in question is really the echad form of the word (as at Deut. 6:4), then it will end with the Hebrew letter “d” in the Hebrew portion of your interlinear. If, however, it is really the plural form of the word (achadim), then it will end in the Hebrew letter “m”. And if the word is really Kechad (“AS one”), it will begin with the Hebrew letter “k”. Remember, though, that Hebrew reads from right to left (so the LAST letter of a Hebrew word is really the letter at the extreme LEFT.)

Using your concordance along with an interlinear Hebrew-English Bible in this manner, I don’t believe you will ever find echad (as used at Deut. 6:4) literally meaning “plural oneness”!

Further emphasizing the impropriety of this “plural oneness” interpretation of echad are the many trinitarian renderings of Deut. 6:4. In the dozens of different trinitarian Bible translations that I have examined none of them have rendered Deut. 6:4 (or Mark 12:29) in such a way as to show anything even faintly resembling a “plural oneness”!!

Even the highly trinitarian The Living Bible, which, being a paraphrase Bible, is able to (and frequently does) take great liberties with the literal Greek and Hebrew meanings in order to make better trinitarian interpretations, renders Deut. 6:4 as “Jehovah is our God, Jehovah alone.” Notice that there’s not even a hint of a “plural oneness” Jehovah!

The equally trinitarian (and nearly as “freely” translated as The Living Bible) Good News Bible (GNB) renders it: “The LORD - and the LORD alone - is our God.” - Compare the equally “free-handed” (and trinitarian) The Amplified Bible.

Yachid

A few trinitarians insist that not only does echad mean “plural oneness,” but that, if singleness were intended by the Bible writer, the Hebrew word yachid would have been used at Deut. 6:4.

Here is how it was presented to me by one trinitarian:

“The word for ‘one’ in this great declaration [Deut. 6:4] is not Yachid which is an absolute oneness but rather echad which means ‘united one.’ Had the Holy Spirit desired to state absolute mathematical oneness in this all-important declaration, He could have easily used the word yachid, couldn’t He?”

We have already seen the desperate falsity of the “echad-means-’plural-oneness’” idea. But what about yachid? Did the Bible writers really use it whenever they meant “absolute mathematical oneness”? We have already seen that they really used echad for “absolute mathematical oneness,” and a good concordance will show they did this consistently—many hundreds of times!

Yachid, on the other hand, is only used about 12 times in the entire Bible and then only in a narrow, specific sense.

The Old Testament language authority, Gesenius, tells us that yachid is used in three very specialized ways: (1) “only” but primarily in the sense of “only begotten”! - Gen. 22:2, 12, 16; Jer. 6:26; and Zech. 12:10. (2) “solitary” but with the connotation of “forsaken” or “wretched” ! - Ps. 25:16; 68:6. (3) As yachidah (feminine form) meaning “only one” as something most dear and used “poet[ically] for ‘life’ - Ps. 22:20; 35:17.” - p. 345 b.

We find yachid is never used to describe God anywhere in the entire Bible! But it is used to describe Isaac in his prefigured representation of the Messiah (and ‘only-begotten’): Gen. 22:2, 12, 16. It is also used at Judges 11:34 for an only-begotten child. The ancient Greek Septuagint translates yachid at Judges 11:34 as monogenes (“only-begotten”): the same NT Greek word repeatedly used to describe Christ (even in his pre-human heavenly existence - 1 John 4:9). Monogenes, however, like the Hebrew yachid, is never used to describe the only true God, Jehovah (who is the Father alone).

So, if Jehovah were to describe himself as “forsaken” or “wretched,” or were speaking poetically about his “dear life,” or were describing himself as the “only-begotten son” (which he never does anywhere in the Bible!), then he might have used yachid.

But since he was describing his “mathematical oneness” at Deut. 6:4, he properly used echad!

For the rest of my personal study on this subject see:

Examining the Trinity: Echad - 'One'
 
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marks

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.......................................
In addition to insisting that echad means “plural oneness” some also insist that, if God had intended the meaning of “absolute oneness” (singleness, only one individual) at Deut. 6:4, he would have used the word yachid (or yacheed).

So let’s examine the intended meanings of echad and yachid and the scriptures cited above.

First, it certainly wouldn’t be surprising to find that some noted trinitarian authority on Biblical Hebrew had written somewhere that echad means “united or plural oneness.” but I haven’t found one yet!

Here is what I have found written about echad by authorities on Biblical Hebrew:

The only definition given for echad in the very trinitarian New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance is: “a prim[ary] card[inal] number; one”. We find no “plural oneness” there!

The highly respected Biblical Hebrew authority, Gesenius, says that echad is “a numeral having the power of an adjective, one.” He then lists the various meanings of echad as:

“(1) The same,”

“(2) first,”

“(3) some one,”

“(4) it acts the part of an indefinite article,”

“(5) one only of its kind,”

“(6) when repeated [echad ... echad] ‘one ... another’,”

“(7) [K echad] AS one man.” [The initial consonant of this word, “K,” actually means “as” or “like,” so in this special form the meaning is close to that of a plural oneness. But this is not the form used at Deut. 6:4 !! ]

Gesenius also lists a plural form of the word (achadim,) which means “joined in one, united.” This, too, is not the form used at Deut. 6:4 which context shows, instead, to have meaning #5 above. - See Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, #259, Baker Book House. Surely, if God (or Jehovah) were really a union of persons, a united one, this form which truly means “united one” would have been used to describe “Him” repeatedly in the Holy Scriptures. But it and all other words with similar meanings were never used for God (or Jehovah)!

By using a good Bible Concordance (such as Strong’s or Young’s) we can find all the uses of echad in the Bible. Unfortunately (due to space limitations), Young’s and Strong’s both list the rare plural form (achadim,) and the “AS one” (Kechad,) form along with the common singular form (echad) without distinguishing among them.

Nevertheless, since both the plural form and the kechad form are used quite rarely (see Ezek. 37:17 and 2 Chronicles 5:13 for examples), we can see that the overwhelming majority of the uses of echad listed in these concordances (over 500) obviously have the meaning of singleness just as we normally use the word “one” today.

If you should find a scripture listed as using echad in your concordance that definitely has the meaning “plural oneness” or “together,” or “as one,” you should check it out in an interlinear Hebrew-English Bible. If the word in question is really the echad form of the word (as at Deut. 6:4), then it will end with the Hebrew letter “d” in the Hebrew portion of your interlinear. If, however, it is really the plural form of the word (achadim), then it will end in the Hebrew letter “m”. And if the word is really Kechad (“AS one”), it will begin with the Hebrew letter “k”. Remember, though, that Hebrew reads from right to left (so the LAST letter of a Hebrew word is really the letter at the extreme LEFT.)

Using your concordance along with an interlinear Hebrew-English Bible in this manner, I don’t believe you will ever find echad (as used at Deut. 6:4) literally meaning “plural oneness”!

Further emphasizing the impropriety of this “plural oneness” interpretation of echad are the many trinitarian renderings of Deut. 6:4. In the dozens of different trinitarian Bible translations that I have examined none of them have rendered Deut. 6:4 (or Mark 12:29) in such a way as to show anything even faintly resembling a “plural oneness”!!

Even the highly trinitarian The Living Bible, which, being a paraphrase Bible, is able to (and frequently does) take great liberties with the literal Greek and Hebrew meanings in order to make better trinitarian interpretations, renders Deut. 6:4 as “Jehovah is our God, Jehovah alone.” Notice that there’s not even a hint of a “plural oneness” Jehovah!

The equally trinitarian (and nearly as “freely” translated as The Living Bible) Good News Bible (GNB) renders it: “The LORD - and the LORD alone - is our God.” - Compare the equally “free-handed” (and trinitarian) The Amplified Bible.

Yachid

A few trinitarians insist that not only does echad mean “plural oneness,” but that, if singleness were intended by the Bible writer, the Hebrew word yachid would have been used at Deut. 6:4.

Here is how it was presented to me by one trinitarian:

“The word for ‘one’ in this great declaration [Deut. 6:4] is not Yachid which is an absolute oneness but rather echad which means ‘united one.’ Had the Holy Spirit desired to state absolute mathematical oneness in this all-important declaration, He could have easily used the word yachid, couldn’t He?”

We have already seen the desperate falsity of the “echad-means-’plural-oneness’” idea. But what about yachid? Did the Bible writers really use it whenever they meant “absolute mathematical oneness”? We have already seen that they really used echad for “absolute mathematical oneness,” and a good concordance will show they did this consistently—many hundreds of times!

Yachid, on the other hand, is only used about 12 times in the entire Bible and then only in a narrow, specific sense.

The Old Testament language authority, Gesenius, tells us that yachid is used in three very specialized ways: (1) “only” but primarily in the sense of “only begotten”! - Gen. 22:2, 12, 16; Jer. 6:26; and Zech. 12:10. (2) “solitary” but with the connotation of “forsaken” or “wretched” ! - Ps. 25:16; 68:6. (3) As yachidah (feminine form) meaning “only one” as something most dear and used “poet[ically] for ‘life’ - Ps. 22:20; 35:17.” - p. 345 b.

We find yachid is never used to describe God anywhere in the entire Bible! But it is used to describe Isaac in his prefigured representation of the Messiah (and ‘only-begotten’): Gen. 22:2, 12, 16. It is also used at Judges 11:34 for an only-begotten child. The ancient Greek Septuagint translates yachid at Judges 11:34 as monogenes (“only-begotten”): the same NT Greek word repeatedly used to describe Christ (even in his pre-human heavenly existence - 1 John 4:9). Monogenes, however, like the Hebrew yachid, is never used to describe the only true God, Jehovah (who is the Father alone).

So, if Jehovah were to describe himself as “forsaken” or “wretched,” or were speaking poetically about his “dear life,” or were describing himself as the “only-begotten son” (which he never does anywhere in the Bible!), then he might have used yachid.

But since he was describing his “mathematical oneness” at Deut. 6:4, he properly used echad!
This is very interesting reading! Did you write all this post? I'm impressed! Not surprised, mind you, impressed!

I don't know enough Hebrew to have any comment myself, only that I'm very aware of the argument you are refuting about echad.

And I've found in many cases sometimes the proponents of a view are their own worst enemies in bringing poor arguments to support that view.

Anyway, very interesting post!!

Much love!