Here is what it all comes down to—- and you’d better get it right!
- Thread starter BloodBought 1953
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."
It is common, I believe, for the ancient Hebrew mind to restate things for emphasis. Verily, verily.
It’s a fair question to ask.
Read Hebrews 3 and make a guess as to whether the apostle is talking to believers or unbelievers.
3 And so, dear brothers and sisters who belong to God and are partners with those called to heaven, think carefully about this Jesus whom we declare to be God’s messenger and High Priest. 2 For he was faithful to God, who appointed him, just as Moses served faithfully when he was entrusted with God’s entire house.
3 But Jesus deserves far more glory than Moses, just as a person who builds a house deserves more praise than the house itself.4 For every house has a builder, but the one who built everything is God.
5 Moses was certainly faithful in God’s house as a servant. His work was an illustration of the truths God would reveal later. 6 But Christ, as the Son, is in charge of God’s entire house. And we are God’s house, if we keep our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ.
7 That is why the Holy Spirit says,
“Today when you hear his voice,
8 don’t harden your hearts
as Israel did when they rebelled,
when they tested me in the wilderness.
9 There your ancestors tested and tried my patience,
even though they saw my miracles for forty years.
10 So I was angry with them, and I said,
‘Their hearts always turn away from me.
They refuse to do what I tell them.’
11 So in my anger I took an oath:
‘They will never enter my place of rest.’”
12 Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. 13 You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,” so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. 14 For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ. 15 Remember what it says:
“Today when you hear his voice,
don’t harden your hearts
as Israel did when they rebelled.”
16 And who was it who rebelled against God, even though they heard his voice? Wasn’t it the people Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And who made God angry for forty years? Wasn’t it the people who sinned, whose corpses lay in the wilderness? 18 And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter his rest? Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? 19 So we see that because of their unbelief they were not able to enter his rest.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I don't think any of us are advocating sin.But you kinda didn't answer the question. Is he advocating sin or isn't he? I think we all know that any sins not covered by the blood of Christ will have to be paid for by the sinner himself. It's another glass half-empty/half-full thing. No one's condoning sin here, in my opinion (although we seem to be determined to pin that rap on each other). FB is just saying that the quality of God's mercy is not strained for those who walk with Him and endure to the end. Am I wrong?
After all, aren't we really arguing over what is implied by the 2 basic views of assurance, rather than what is condoned?
As I'm understanding this discussion, the question seems to be whether if one sins, that it means they stop being saved. And @Ferris Bueller answers this with "if you sin in unbelief", then you stop being saved.
So if I'm saying, is this sin OK, or is that sin not OK, it's in reference to this. Sins with a background motivation of fear, according to Ferris, are treated as not taking away salvation, while sins of disregard, not caring about Christ's edict, not regarding any faith in Christ, will cost you your eternal life. As I understand what he is saying.
FB maintains that we must maintain our standing with God by maintaining our mental/emotional state as one described as "believing". Again, as I understand what he teaches. I'm always open to correction.
Much love!
If I had to title the chapter I would say: apostle warns believers to hold fast to trust and encourage each other to keep trusting and growing in trust and to not turn away from trust.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Does anyone else feel like a fool for participating in these "assurance" discussions? I feel like I'm about to haul off and repent.
I never feel like a fool for having this discussion with marks and we’ve had it many times over the years.
My question to you then would be, Have you entered His rest?
How does your answer to that question affect your understanding of the passage?
Can we enter His rest? If we have entered His rest, then what?
Much love!
I have entered His rest. I still sometimes leave it to worry again but I return to trust more quickly now and stay there for longer periods of time. He exercises me in trust, shows me where I’m not really and radically trusting or where I’ve done an end run around trust and am really trusting a bit in something other than Him, doublemindedly. I stumble in trust sometimes, catch myself fretting over what will happen to me when I’m older since I have no retirement saved. (That’s like them not listening to God about only gathering enough for the day and trusting that He would provide enough again the following day.)
So it’s a race of trust, some stumbles, some getting back up and racing to trust again, and developing endurance to remain/abide in trust in Him for longer periods of time without stumbling.
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What would it mean then that God tells them, they shall NEVER enter His rest?
For me, this rest is basically about one thing, our reconciliation. We either receive the reconciliation, or we don't. Receiving this reconciliation means we are now accepted by God because of Jesus, so we are no longer trying to be accepted by God on our own.
We enter this rest, or we don't. God tells these, because of unbelief, they will never enter His rest. Not that they will be ejected from His rest. Or that they will leave it.
Much love!
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He is very patient and forgiving. He gave them 40 years to begin to trust. They started out well when they trusted Him to save them. My gosh, what trust would it have taken to step out under a towering wall of water?? It almost seems impossible that they could then not trust Him for temporal provision. I would not even believe it was possible if I hadn’t repeated the same exact mistake after He saved me.
I don't know, but they had the Egyptians behind them helping with a little cognitive bias towards that split ocean.
And they had the Angel of the Lord in the column of cloud and fire physically before them.
Much love!
That chapter is all about either entering, nor not entering His rest, based on whether you believe or don't believe.
Hebrews 4:1-11 KJV
1) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5) And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Entering that rest guards us from falling because of unbelief.
This part,
he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works
I don't think this is saying that we stop doing any works, rather, that we stop relying on them for our standing with God.
Much love!
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You know, more recently, He has confronted me on insistence that I need more money. He can blow away a mans wages or He can sew up a hole in his pocket. He can stretch a few fish into feeding hundreds. If He can do that with a few fish, He can do it with a few dollars. So will I keep insisting on more money?
I am telling you, there have been some months where the math does not work. I add up what I made and it absolutely is not enough and yet there was enough to pay what had to be paid. God is not bound to the math.
I am telling you, there have been some months where the math does not work. I add up what I made and it absolutely is not enough and yet there was enough to pay what had to be paid. God is not bound to the math.
As one with a long history of worrying over money, well, everything you just said here, Yep!!
I've had the same thing too, that the math won't add up, yet every need is met. Learning to trust like this is for me like learning to live in free fall. I'm not to be concerned over whether I hit the ground, that's God's thing. I'm just enjoying the rushing wind! And maybe I'm not just falling, maybe it's carrying me somewhere!
Much love!
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