Biblical Mary

[Tong2020]

Is the gospel of salvation concerning the blessed virgin Mary? Or is it concerning Jesus Christ?

Just asking.

@theefaith

Tong
R4261

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hi Ronald,

Thank you for your articulation of what you believe. It was very helpful.

Scripture makes it clear that it's not up to each individual Christian to decide what they THINK the bible says. It doesn't say that we are allowed to form our own interpretation of Scripture. It says completely opposite of that. It says we are to follow the elders who are in charge of our souls among other passages that are a waste of my time to quote to you.

Who decides what a "fundamental issue" is? If my church elders teach that the Real Presence is a fundamental issue for salvation and you don't teach yourself that it is a fundamental issue then which one is right? You or the church elders? How does your theory, that each individual person can decide what they believe Scripture means, be an answer Jesus prayer that we all be one. Your theory creates division, not unity. I do not say this in a mean way. I am only using logic so please don't take that as an attack.

Respectfully debating...Mary

We are to follow our elders as they follow the Lord. Paul commended the Bereans for they heard what Paul said, and then searched the writings to see if what He said is true.

The elders do not get to decide what is doctrine. they are simply there to pass on what the Lord declared is Doctrine.

As for your words in bold:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

If these were the only words on th eissue then I would agree. but Paul wrote follow Him as he followed Christ. How do we know if our elders are following Christ? by studying to show ourselves approved unto God. workmen who need not be ashamed, but rightly understanding teh word of truth.

 

[Marymog]

We are to follow our elders as they follow the Lord. Paul commended the Bereans for they heard what Paul said, and then searched the writings to see if what He said is true.....

A little clarification here. The Bereans searched the Torah (what we now call the OT) to see if what Paul said about Jesus being the Messiah was true. Once they accepted what Paul was telling them (oral tradition) they became followers of Jesus/Apostles and submitted themselves to the teachings of the Apostles. They submitted themselves to the elders just like the Apostle Paul wrote in Hebrews 13:17. The Thessalonicans rejected Paul oral teaching about Jesus being the promised Messiah and rejected Jesus as the Messiah.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

The elders do not get to decide what is doctrine. they are simply there to pass on what the Lord declared is Doctrine.

Well Ronald, that's not true.

Are you familiar with The Council of Jerusalem? Acts 15:28-29 specifically says they (the Apostles) decided a doctrine that "seemed good to the Holy Spirit". That doctrine stated that all Christians are to "abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality". That decision/doctrine was binding upon all Christians.

Bible Study Mary

 

[Ronald Nolette]

A little clarification here. The Bereans searched the Torah (what we now call the OT) to see if what Paul said about Jesus being the Messiah was true. Once they accepted what Paul was telling them (oral tradition) they became followers of Jesus/Apostles and submitted themselves to the teachings of the Apostles. They submitted themselves to the elders just like the Apostle Paul wrote in Hebrews 13:17. The Thessalonicans rejected Paul oral teaching about Jesus being the promised Messiah and rejected Jesus as the Messiah.

Mary

Well I submit myself tro the teachings of the apostles. But that doesn't mean that I blindly follow any and every pastor, priest, pope etc. I hear what they say and compare their words to teh teaching of the apostles aka the New Testament.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well Ronald, that's not true.

Are you familiar with The Council of Jerusalem? Acts 15:28-29 specifically says they (the Apostles) decided a doctrine that "seemed good to the Holy Spirit". That doctrine stated that all Christians are to "abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality". That decision/doctrine was binding upon all Christians.

Bible Study Mary

Yes and they were holding the office of Apostle (or at least some of them) Th eelders that followed are supposed to pass on teh doctrines that the foundation layers built. You are showing the building of the church by those commissioned ot build it. We are to inahbit that building. NOt construct new wings with new foundation. I will give an example. Pope Francis declared that there was nothing wrong with gay civil unions.

He also said that pious Jews and Muslims could go to heaven as pious Jeews and Muslims- that is doctrine of demons and to be rejected and resisted at all costs!

 

[Marymog]

Yes and they were holding the office of Apostle (or at least some of them) Th eelders that followed are supposed to pass on teh doctrines that the foundation layers built. You are showing the building of the church by those commissioned ot build it. We are to inahbit that building. NOt construct new wings with new foundation. I will give an example. Pope Francis declared that there was nothing wrong with gay civil unions.

He also said that pious Jews and Muslims could go to heaven as pious Jeews and Muslims- that is doctrine of demons and to be rejected and resisted at all costs!

Hey Ronald,

So you think that comments from the Pope MAKE Church doctrine?

 

[Marymog]

Well I submit myself tro the teachings of the apostles. But that doesn't mean that I blindly follow any and every pastor, priest, pope etc. I hear what they say and compare their words to teh teaching of the apostles aka the New Testament.

Ok...thank you

 

[Marymog]

Yes and they were holding the office of Apostle (or at least some of them) Th eelders that followed are supposed to pass on teh doctrines that the foundation layers built.

Hey Ronald,

So you believe that once the last Apostle died their chosen successors, the elders and Shepard's of The Church, were not allowed to clarify for the sheep what is written in Scripture and do what the Apostles did at The Council of Jerusalem?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hey Ronald,

So you think that comments from the Pope MAKE Church doctrine?

No the writings of teh apostles known as teh New Testament make church doctrine.

Bu ttell me do you believe in purgatory?
Do you believe in indulgences to reduce the time people spend in purgatory?
Do you believe i nholy days of obligation?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hey Ronald,

So you believe that once the last Apostle died their chosen successors, the elders and Shepard's of The Church, were not allowed to clarify for the sheep what is written in Scripture and do what the Apostles did at The Council of Jerusalem?

Depends on what you mean by "clarify".

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hey Ronald,

So you think that comments from the Pope MAKE Church doctrine?

Many times they do.

Throughout Roman Church history words from popes made their way to canon law aka Roman Church doctrine.

Today is much different but never forget that atr least through th ereformation no council issued an official decree without approval from the pontificus maximus!

 

[Marymog]

No the writings of teh apostles known as teh New Testament make church doctrine.

Bu ttell me do you believe in purgatory?
Do you believe in indulgences to reduce the time people spend in purgatory?
Do you believe i nholy days of obligation?

Hold on, hold on. Back up kiddo.

How are we going from comments of the Pope, that you miss-characterized as doctrine, to purgatory and days of obligation? Are we done discussing your lie...or innocent miss-characterization.... that comments from the Pope make doctrine?

 

[Marymog]

Many times they do.

Throughout Roman Church history words from popes made their way to canon law aka Roman Church doctrine.

Today is much different but never forget that atr least through th ereformation no council issued an official decree without approval from the pontificus maximus!

Ok....Well, I am not familiar with a comment by a Pope being turned into doctrine. Since there are "many times" that this has happened can you name one?

 

[Marymog]

Depends on what you mean by "clarify".

There was a disagreement of Church leaders about circumcision. So at The Council of Jerusalem they met, discussed and clarified what all Christians should be taught and practice. They decideded there was no need for circumcision to become a Christian.

Five years after the last Apostle dies there is another disagreement about XYZ (fill in the blank). Christians need clarification on what they should believe/practice etc. How is that handled now that the last Apostles is dead?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hold on, hold on. Back up kiddo.

How are we going from comments of the Pope, that you miss-characterized as doctrine, to purgatory and days of obligation? Are we done discussing your lie...or innocent miss-characterization.... that comments from the Pope make doctrine?

I said comments from the pope can end up[ becoming doctrine. He is Pontificus Maximus after all. Roman doctrine was not made in a vacuum after all. If a Pope issues a decree or encyclical it tends to become doctrine . You should know that. Popes know that their comments carry much much weight.

There was a disagreement of Church leaders about circumcision. So at The Council of Jerusalem they met, discussed and clarified what all Christians should be taught and practice. They decideded there was no need for circumcision to become a Christian.

Five years after the last Apostle dies there is another disagreement about XYZ (fill in the blank). Christians need clarification on what they should believe/practice etc. How is that handled now that the last Apostles is dead?

After 2,000 years there should be little to no need for much clarification. Can you cite a specific example so we can put flesh and bone on this hypothetical.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ok....Well, I am not familiar with a comment by a Pope being turned into doctrine. Since there are "many times" that this has happened can you name one?

If I have time I will dig up a few.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There was a disagreement of Church leaders about circumcision. So at The Council of Jerusalem they met, discussed and clarified what all Christians should be taught and practice. They decideded there was no need for circumcision to become a Christian.

Five years after the last Apostle dies there is another disagreement about XYZ (fill in the blank). Christians need clarification on what they should believe/practice etc. How is that handled now that the last Apostles is dead?

Actually teh decision was that Gentiles need not be circumcised. Jews still did as per the eternal covenant of Abraham. but this is first century when the apostles werew busy formulating Church doctrine. clarifying is not making doctrine, but showing how to apply doctrine.

 

[theefaith]

Is the gospel of salvation concerning the blessed virgin Mary? Or is it concerning Jesus Christ?

Just asking.

@theefaith

Tong
R4261

salvation concerns all of us!

Jesus Christ is the only savior! Lk 2:30

only cos of the great thing done to Mary Lk 1:59 in the immaculate conception by God was the Holy Spirit able to conceive in Her, for God is holy!
Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of heaven!

but Mary immaculate is the instrument that God used to bring him into this world Isa 7:14

Christ is the source of grace Jn 10:16-17

but the graces we need were given to Mary who being immaculate was worthy to receive them Lk 1:30

 

[Tong2020]

salvation concerns all of us!

Jesus Christ is the only savior! Lk 2:30

only cos of the great thing done to Mary Lk 1:59 in the immaculate conception by God was the Holy Spirit able to conceive in Her, for God is holy!
Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of heaven!

but Mary immaculate is the instrument that God used to bring him into this world Isa 7:14

Christ is the source of grace Jn 10:16-17

but the graces we need were given to Mary who being immaculate was worthy to receive them Lk 1:30

I asked “Is the gospel of salvation concerning the blessed virgin Mary? Or is it concerning Jesus Christ?”

lt seems I need to clarify. So let me state it another way.

Is the gospel that the apostles preached about Jesus Christ or about the blessed virgin Mary?

Tong
R4304