Jesus Is God: Part 1

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Hidden In Him

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Greetings all.

I have a day or two off, and I was browsing the site and noticed we still have a lot of non-Trinitarians posting. So after looking into a few things I thought I would post something on the issue. As God wills, I will post additional parts to this series, but for now let me start with a passage where I think the non-Trinitarian argument isn't well supported.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

First the verse: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. John 17:5)

Now, quoting from Biblical Unitarian, here is their argument concerning this verse:

1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it would come into manifestation.

2. Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began, and would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth...
____________________

The problem with this argument is that Jesus in no uncertain terms asks to be clothed with the glory He had with the Father before the world began, not some glory that was "in the mind of God" before the world began. This is adding to the text to support a doctrinal bias.

I agree that a person's doctrines should not be formed out of doctrinal bias, as the author himself admitted when he stated, "It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God." But he is committing the very sin he is accusing others of. The word ought to be read for what it says, not what it has to be manipulated into saying in order to suit someone's preconceived notions.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
 

Abaxvahl

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Greetings all.

I have a day or two off, and I was browsing the site and noticed we still have a lot of non-Trinitarians posting. So after looking into a few things I thought I would post something on the issue. As God wills, I will post additional parts to this series, but for now let me start with a passage where I think the non-Trinitarian argument isn't well supported.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

First the verse: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. John 17:5)

Now, quoting from Biblical Unitarian, here is their argument concerning this verse:

1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it would come into manifestation.

2. Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began, and would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth...
____________________

The problem with this argument is that Jesus in no uncertain terms asks to be clothed with the glory He had with the Father before the world began, not some glory that was "in the mind of God" before the world began. This is adding to the text to support a doctrinal bias.

I agree that a person's doctrines should not be formed out of doctrinal bias, as the author himself admitted when he stated, "It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God." But he is committing the very sin he is accusing others of. The word ought to be read for what it says, not what it has to be manipulated into saying in order to suit someone's preconceived notions.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

Non-Trinitarians aren't even Christians so it is no wonder they do such things to the text.

There are two main problems I see with this guys argument, firstly as if some non-biased reading exists, he has access to it, or that it would justify his views. Secondly saying that we hold to a "physical pre-existence" which is in fact not the case but that pre-existence is in Eternity as the Second Person of the Trinity. I have no idea where they got that idea.
 

Hidden In Him

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Non-Trinitarians aren't even Christians so it is no wonder they do such things to the text.

I wouldn't go that far. I think many of them are simply in error on this doctrine in particular. Whatever doctrines they hold to have to be examined on an individual basis to determine if they would qualify as non-Christians in my eyes.
Secondly saying that we hold to a "physical pre-existence" which is in fact not the case but that pre-existence is in Eternity as the Second Person of the Trinity. I have no idea where they got that idea.

I thought the words "physical pre-existence" were a little awkward to use as well.
 
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amadeus

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Non-Trinitarians aren't even Christians so it is no wonder they do such things to the text.
After 14 years of nominal Catholicism God saved me and my wife and our marriage. [Next year it will be 50 years of marriage.]

But... since we are not Trinitarians, no Christian designation is allowed? Did God say that? How important is the label?

I thought the most important thing was to love God? The greatest command, right? And the second is like unto it, loving our neighbors as ourselves? Would you also say that all non-Trinitarians are lost then? Did Jesus or the Apostle Paul say that?
 
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Hidden In Him

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After 14 years of nominal Catholicism God saved me and my wife and our marriage. [Next year it will be 50 years of marriage.]

But... since we are not Trinitarians, no Christian is designation allowed? Did God say that? How important is the label?

I thought the most important thing was to love God? The greatest command, right? And the second is like unto it, loving our neighbors as ourselves? Would you also say that all non-Trinitarians lost then? Did Jesus or the Apostle Paul say that?

Blessings to you, my brother!

Hope you are having a nice evening, and sorry if it seems I'm poking any holes in a doctrine you lean in favor of. Just passing a little time is all. :cool:

God bless!
- H
 

Abaxvahl

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After 14 years of nominal Catholicism God saved me and my wife and our marriage. [Next year it will be 50 years of marriage.]

But... since we are not Trinitarians, no Christian is designation allowed? Did God say that? How important is the label?

I thought the most important thing was to love God? The greatest command, right? And the second is like unto it, loving our neighbors as ourselves? Would you also say that all non-Trinitarians lost then? Did Jesus or the Apostle Paul say that?

God did say it, and the label if it is filled with grace and love is important for it means one follows Christ, which includes adhering to His doctrines. All non-Trinitarians are not lost, even people who do not know Jesus at all can be saved. I have witnessed the salvation of a non-Trinitarian who was grace-filled like the Prophets of old, but nonetheless concerning doctrine they are not Christians and their baptism is not valid and their "Churches" do not exist.
 

amadeus

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Blessings to you, my brother!

Hope you are having a nice evening, and sorry if it seems I'm poking any holes in a doctrine you lean in favor of. Just passing a little time is all. :cool:

God bless!
- H
Good to see you here my friend for another moment or another day. Me and mine are blessed of God. Hope all is well with you today!

If you or anyone is really see flaws in the doctrines favored by me or anyone, then holes perhaps need to be poked in them to point out to whoever is paying attention that we may indeed need to recheck our canteens.

If a person is walking out on the desert with just a single filled canteen of water , he certainly does not want it to be leaking when he is in need of a drink, does he?

"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water." John 4:10

What a mighty God we serve!
 

amadeus

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God did say it, and the label if it is filled with grace and love is important for it means one follows Christ, which includes adhering to His doctrines. All non-Trinitarians are not lost, even people who do not know Jesus at all can be saved. I have witnessed the salvation of a non-Trinitarian who was grace-filled like the Prophets of old, but nonetheless concerning doctrine they are not Christians and their baptism is not valid and their "Churches" do not exist.
Thank you for answering.

What it takes, I believe, to adhere to His doctrines is a continuous surrender to Him and then following the Holy Spirit which leads us into all Truth. Jesus is Truth! For me the following, the seeking is what the word, Christian, means, one who wants to and strive to become like Him. I guess you have a different definition.

Alone it is impossible come to that flawless vision of Him, but with God all things are possible. What man of us has arrived already at the "face to face" vision about which God inspired Solomon and David and Apostle Paul to write?


God is certainly not finished with me yet!
 

Hidden In Him

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If you or anyone is really see flaws in the doctrines favored by me or anyone, then holes perhaps need to be poked in them to point out to whoever is paying attention that we may indeed need to recheck our canteens.

If a person is walking out on the desert with just a single filled canteen of water , he certainly does not want it to be leaking when he is in need of a drink, does he?

"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water." John 4:10

What a mighty God we serve!

That's an interesting analogy, LoL, and from you I would expect nothing less. :)

Glad to hear all is well with you and yours : )
 

Hidden In Him

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Non-Trinitarians aren't even Christians so it is no wonder they do such things to the text.
One has to wonder why they are on Christian forums. Hoping to shake the faith of someone?

I will say this, however:

In some instances (such as with Amadeus I think), the rejection of the Trinity is the result of an adverse reaction to Catholicism. In others, however, it is compounded with a number of other false doctrines that I believe place a person's salvation in doubt, not is much over the condition of their heart as over the grossly heretical nature of their full body of teaching.

The Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, compound rejection of the Trinity with the belief that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal power, that Jesus did not die on a cross, that there will be no physical, visible second coming, that the soul goes into "soul sleep" after death, and especially their belief that the bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ never took place. These doctrines so badly assault New Testament teaching that strong proponents of these things make themselves enemies of the truth on multiple fronts, so much so that I can't help but believe they will not be allowed entrance into the kingdom of Heaven if they continue teaching them until they die. This is part of why I occasionally interact on subjects like this. The job of orthodox Christians is to redeem them from error if it can be proven, as Amadeus was saying, but out of love and respect, and with precise handling of the word.

Unfortunately, I see too much labelling, too much animosity being expressed, and far too little strong refutation of their arguments for my own comfort personally.
 

Wrangler

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let me start with a passage where I think the non-Trinitarian argument isn't well supported.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

First the verse: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. John 17:5)

Strawman Argument. To avoid making an argument for the proposition you favor, you attack the opposing proposition. No matter how weak the alternative hypothesis is, it does not support the proposition you are advocating. What you are saying is a variant of 'my idea is right because the opposite idea is so bad.'

Rather than speak in negation, why not take the best possible verses to positively support your thesis?

NOTE: What your evidence does not say. It does not say 'I will glorify myself as I had before the world began, before I created the world, being the one and only almighty God for I am God incarnate.'

At best, this verses supports the idea that Jesus existed before his birth. Being a man, you have to make the case that pre-existing birth does not apply to all men. (Such is inductive reasoning ... I saw a dog with 4 legs. Therefore, all dogs naturally have 4 legs.)

It is worth noting that Jesus and the Apostles equated the Father alone with God. This is stated again and again in no uncertain terms. 'For us, there is one God, the Father.' So, the above could be written, "And now, God, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." There are many such verses in Scripture where "God" is parsed from Jesus, eliminating the Father-Son hoped for confusion. But there truly is no confusion since the Bible frequently calls God the Father but never God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. See Christianity's end game - especially the clarification on 'everything.' Hope this helps.


23 But this is how it will happen: the Anointed’s awakening is the firstfruits. It will be followed by the resurrection of all those who belong to Him at His coming, 24 and then the end will come. After He has conquered His enemies and shut down every rule and authority vying for power, He will hand over the Kingdom to God, the Father of all that is. 25 And He must reign as King until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last hostile power to be destroyed is death itself. 27 All this will happen to fulfill the Scripture that says, “You placed everything on earth beneath His feet.”[a] (Although it says “everything,” it is clear that this does not also pertain to God, who created everything and made it all subject to Him.) 28 Then, when all creation has taken its rightful place beneath God’s sovereign reign, the Son will follow, subject to the Father who exalted Him over all created things; then God will be God over all.
1 Corinthians 15:23-28
The Voice
 

Brakelite

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Non-Trinitarians aren't even Christians
Better to burn them all yeah, so they can't contaminate others?
Can I ask you to do something for me please? Please explain the Trinity on a simple way that removes all mystery, in a way you can not only understand it well but teach it in a way others can understand it also. I'm not interested in any scripture quotes that reveal 3 individual divine persons... I know that already. What I'm particularly interested in is the part of the doctrine that everybody must agree on in order to become a Christian.
 

Hidden In Him

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Strawman Argument. To avoid making an argument for the proposition you favor, you attack the opposing proposition. No matter how weak the alternative hypothesis is, it does not support the proposition you are advocating. What you are saying is a variant of 'my idea is right because the opposite idea is so bad.'

No it's not. :) I thought my argument was clearly inferred, but let me state it outright so there is no longer any confusion: When Jesus said, "Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began," He was stating that before the world began He was with the Father and was clothed in glory, not that He was merely clothed in glory "in the mind of God." The former is what the verse states. The latter is what the verse has to be manipulated to say.
NOTE: What your evidence does not say. It does not say 'I will glorify myself as I had before the world began, before I created the world, being the one and only almighty God for I am God incarnate.'

THIS is a straw man argument, Wrangler. You are doing the same thing the author was doing; accusing someone else of doing what you yourself are doing. I have not argued that Jesus was anywhere saying "I am the one and only Almighty God."

I take no offense, but it serves no constructive purpose to respond to posts like this. I will wait to see if someone else is willing to debate the issue honestly.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
 

Brakelite

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Greetings all.

I have a day or two off, and I was browsing the site and noticed we still have a lot of non-Trinitarians posting. So after looking into a few things I thought I would post something on the issue. As God wills, I will post additional parts to this series, but for now let me start with a passage where I think the non-Trinitarian argument isn't well supported.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

First the verse: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. John 17:5)

Now, quoting from Biblical Unitarian, here is their argument concerning this verse:

1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it would come into manifestation.

2. Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began, and would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth...
____________________

The problem with this argument is that Jesus in no uncertain terms asks to be clothed with the glory He had with the Father before the world began, not some glory that was "in the mind of God" before the world began. This is adding to the text to support a doctrinal bias.

I agree that a person's doctrines should not be formed out of doctrinal bias, as the author himself admitted when he stated, "It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God." But he is committing the very sin he is accusing others of. The word ought to be read for what it says, not what it has to be manipulated into saying in order to suit someone's preconceived notions.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
My biggest gripe with trinitarians is to believe that the trinity doctrine is the only way to confess Jesus as deity. Because they presume that all non trinitarians automatically believe Jesus is not God, they miss the depth of understanding that a literal begotten Son of God the Father is the greatest support for Jesus' claims to divinity. What else can a begotten Son of God be other than God Himself in the person of His Son?
 

Abaxvahl

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Better to burn them all yeah, so they can't contaminate others?
Can I ask you to do something for me please? Please explain the Trinity on a simple way that removes all mystery, in a way you can not only understand it well but teach it in a way others can understand it also. I'm not interested in any scripture quotes that reveal 3 individual divine persons... I know that already. What I'm particularly interested in is the part of the doctrine that everybody must agree on in order to become a Christian.

It depends on how you define "mystery." God in His nature is a mystery because He can not be wholly comprehended by human minds (for to be comprehended, like you can comprehend what a chair is, is a form a limitation, and would also mean He is not infinite). So to one degree or another all things God does is a mystery, what God is in His nature is a mystery as well (and even unknowable, for it can never be limited by a created mind or held in whole by us in our mind like what the nature of a chair is). So if you are asking me to unveil God, God Himself can not even put His whole being into your mind so that you comprehend it all for you are created, and neither can I.

But this doesn't mean we can't know God, that He is, or some things He does, or participate in His divine life (2 Peter 1:4), and given the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16) we can know even more. And while God is a mystery in the sense I just defined, the teaching about God is not itself a mystery and can be stated simply, which has been done and is done every Sunday in the Church during the Liturgy, simply refer to the Nicene Creed:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

"And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

And in light of having read that I'd recommend this enlightening video which is also another simple explanation of this God-revealed doctrine, it is perhaps my favorite video on it of all time and one of the best videos on the internet to me, it is also extremely short so that's a plus (see subtitles for he is speaking Romanian):

 

Hidden In Him

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My biggest gripe with trinitarians is to believe that the trinity doctrine is the only way to confess Jesus as deity. Because they presume that all non trinitarians automatically believe Jesus is not God, they miss the depth of understanding that a literal begotten Son of God the Father is the greatest support for Jesus' claims to divinity. What else can a begotten Son of God be other than God Himself in the person of His Son?

I do like the last statement. :cool: though I know it could be explained away in humanistic terms.

Concerning the SDA take on Christ's Divinity, Backlit, I must confess I am not as educated as I should be. Maybe you could provide a link to something?
 

Brakelite

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God in His nature is a mystery because He can not be wholly comprehended by human minds
Does not the above contradict...
being of one substance with the Father;
Which specifically deals with how God is in His nature? This is what cannot be explained... How the persons of the Godhead have their unity together. I have seen certain explanations of the Catholic version of the trinity which state that none of the members can be separated from the others, because all are composite of the one God. This however creates a conundrum... How did the Son of God die on Calvary and be separated from the Father as a result of the burden of sin laid upon Him?
 
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Brakelite

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I do like the last statement. :cool: though I know it could be explained away in humanistic terms.

Concerning the SDA take on Christ's Divinity, Backlit, I must confess I am not as educated as I should be. Maybe you could provide a link to something?
Here a copy of the official SDA belief currently. It isn't a Creed as all our briefs are open to change as we grow in understanding.

The Trinity
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)
The Father
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also those of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Deut. 4:35; Ps. 110:1, 4; John 3:16; 14:9; 1 Cor. 15:28; 1 Tim. 1:17; 1 John 4:8; Rev. 4:11.)
The Son
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly human, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to heaven to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (Isa. 53:4-6; Dan. 9:25-27; Luke 1:35; John 1:1-3, 14; 5:22; 10:30; 14:1-3, 9, 13; Rom. 6:23; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; 2 Cor. 3:18; 5:17-19; Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 1:15-19; Heb. 2:9- 18; 8:1, 2.) 4
The Holy Spirit
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He is as much a person as are the Father and the Son. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ’s life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; 2 Sam. 23:2; Ps. 51:11; Isa. 61:1; Luke 1:35; 4:18; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26; 16:7-13; Acts 1:8; 5:3; 10:38; Rom. 5:5; 1 Cor. 12:7-11; 2 Cor. 3:18; 2 Peter 1:21.)

There are one or two aspects of current SDA teaching on the Godhead I'm not comfortable with.