Jesus Is God: Part 1

[Hidden In Him]

The Son
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly human, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to heaven to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (Isa. 53:4-6; Dan. 9:25-27; Luke 1:35; John 1:1-3, 14; 5:22; 10:30; 14:1-3, 9, 13; Rom. 6:23; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; 2 Cor. 3:18; 5:17-19; Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 1:15-19; Heb. 2:9- 18; 8:1, 2.)

So if I may, where does this differ from Trinitarian doctrine?

 

[Wrangler]

I thought my argument was clearly inferred, but let me state it outright so there is no longer any confusion: When Jesus said, "Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began," He was stating that before the world began He was with the Father and was clothed in glory, ... The former is what the verse states.

Here is the problem: what you wrote is completely disconnected from the conclusion this thread is intended to support. The reference to glory supports the idea that Jesus is God how?

If you want to use the maxim “all glory to God” to pivot, you should say so.

However, what would still be missing is how this maxim is true - in reality - as opposed to just supposing it is true.

For instance, In referring to Psalm 82, aren’t all god’s of the Bible glorified? And beyond the Bible and gods, common men are glorified in achievement. What’s the difference?

How is Jesus glory special in a world where all 8 billion of us have special glory?

What you seem to be doing here is arguing for one proposition (Jesus is God) by referencing another unfounded proposition (Jesus has/had unique glory).

One more point; I think you are incorrectly summarizing Scripture. He was with the Father and was clothed in glory Is your summary but the actual verse suggests it was merely God’s glory that Jesus happened to be in the presence of. (And there are many verses where Jesus says words to the effect that he has no glory on his own, apart from God) Again, this does not differentiate Jesus from other heavenly beings or even Earthy beings.

Hope this helps.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Does not the above contradict...

Which specifically deals with how God is in His nature? This is what cannot be explained... How the persons of the Godhead have their unity together. I have seen certain explanations of the Catholic version of the trinity which state that none of the members can be separated from the others, because all are composite of the one God. This however creates a conundrum... How did the Son of God die on Calvary and be separated from the Father as a result of the burden of sin laid upon Him?

Saying that something is and comprehending what it is are two different things, so it is not a contradiction. It's like (I am not good with examples so hopefully you get it) if you hear something moving in the woods, you know that it is without yet knowing what it is in itself. So there is a distinction.

As for how they have their unity the explanation is simple as well, and St. Gregory of Nyssa's classic work "Not Three Gods" goes into this explicitly (it is a letter worth reading) so I'll quote from him here: "The Father is God: the Son is God: and yet by the same proclamation God is One, because no difference either of nature or of operation is contemplated in the Godhead."

No difference of nature is simple, and an analogy can be drawn: there is one human nature but many persons who possess it. A nature is nothing more than "what it is," and a person is the particular individual. So you are a person and I am a person but we both have the same nature. So the Trinity is one nature but three Persons. Note also that the words in Greek underlying "nature" and "substance" here are ousia and hypostasis, so I quote St. Basil (Letter 236 paragraph 6) on this: "The distinction between 'ousia' and 'hypostasis' is the same as that between the general and the particular; as, for instance, between the animal and the particular man. Wherefore, in the case of the Godhead, we confess one essence or substance so as not to give a variant definition of existence, but we confess a particular hypostasis, in order that our conception of Father, Son and Holy Spirit may be without confusion and clear."

As for the rest of St. Gregory's statement, "no difference of operation," this is what he means: they all do or have the same acts in the divine nature (I saw in the divine nature specifically because the Person of Jesus Christ assumed a human nature and has in it acts that the Father and the Spirit do not have, but that did not change His divine nature so they still do in fact have the same acts in the divine nature, God is immutable) and we receive one act and not many acts. To show this point I will use his own example:

Human persons (let's say there are only three human persons, Adam, Eve, and Cain, which as stated above have one nature) do acts. God does acts as well and there are Three Persons. With human persons the acts are not called one but with God they are called one, why is this? Say Adam and the gang are farming while in general they are all doing the same act the particulars of the act are all individual different: one plants, the other digs, another plows. When God acts the act is the same and we receive it as one and not distinguished by the number of Persons, so when God creates (which is an act/operation) you can not say "the Father made my head, the Son my arms, the Spirit my legs" but "God made my body," for the acts are all one and received as one. As St. Gregory himself says and I quote from the same linked above: "whatever comes to pass, in reference either to the acts of His providence for us, or to the government and constitution of the universe, comes to pass by the action of the Three, yet what does come to pass is not three things."

So this is why it is right to say there is no difference of either nature or operation. Obviously there are many Scriptural proofs of this, "whatever the Father does the Son does," the Father searching the hearts of men, Jesus doing the same, the Spirit doing the same in Acts, or of the Incarnation in Luke all three Persons bring about the act, the creation of the world all three Persons bring about the act, and so on.

Now as for death: the divine nature is immutable, and the Person of the Son can not be separated from the Father. Death is simply the separation of the body and the soul not the cessation of existence which He experienced through the human nature He assumed, so I do not see why it would divide the indivisible Godhead.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Here is the problem: what you wrote is completely disconnected from the conclusion this thread is intended to support. The reference to glory supports the idea that Jesus is God how?

For the Son of man is about to come in the Glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward to each according to his works. (Matthew 16:27).

I think you would have to argue here that the Father's Glory is not actually a Divine Glory.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello HIH,

It has been a long time since have seen you post. To me: I love people, there is no real hatred or bias against many people in my heart it seems, it must be because of Christ with-in. Though have not had many discussions with people in real life when it pertains to the doctrine of the trinity. It is a word that is not in the bible. Because of that alone; the word trinity is just something in which was created to talk about this trinity thing. There would be no real point to try to correct people either way if they believe that it exist, or that it does not exist. People are going to believe and to me it is good to go and read and consider everything in scripture. To me the bible talks about a True and living God, who is love, and is spirit. God's Spirit exist that is considered the Holy Spirit, and then their is God's Word that was the Logos of God that created all things with-in the world, and God did so through His Word. This is to me is a simple biblical understanding of God to me, but it may not be so for others.

Thank you for reading and considering,
With Love in Christ,
Matthew G.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello HIH,

It has been a long time since have seen you post. To me: I love people, there is no real hatred or bias against many people in my heart it seems, it must be because of Christ with-in. Though have not had many discussions with people in real life when it pertains to the doctrine of the trinity. It is a word that is not in the bible. Because of that alone; the word trinity is just something in which was created to talk about this trinity thing. There would be no real point to try to correct people either way if they believe that it exist, or that it does not exist. People are going to believe and to me it is good to go and read and consider everything in scripture. To me the bible talks about a True and living God, who is love, and is spirit. God's Spirit exist that is considered the Holy Spirit, and then their is God's Word that was the Logos of God that created all things with-in the world, and God did so through His Word. This is to me is a simple biblical understanding of God to me, but it may not be so for others.

Thank you for reading and considering,
With Love in Christ,
Matthew G.

Hello, Matthew.

At issue here actually is that there has been a great deal of contending for the idea that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God, hence the title of the thread. I thought it was concerning so I decided to post, seeing as how I had a little free time on my hands anyway. As for the contention that He IS God yet maybe not in the exact same sense as is taught in Trinitarian doctrine wouldn't concern me as much. It's more about slandering the Divinity of Christ.

God bless, and good to see you still around.
- H

 

[marks]

The problem with this argument is that Jesus in no uncertain terms asks to be clothed with the glory He had with the Father before the world began, not some glory that was "in the mind of God" before the world began. This is adding to the text to support a doctrinal bias.

Indeed!

 

[MatthewG]

Hello HIH,

My only other question would be this:

It's more about slandering the Divinity of Christ.

What does that mean to you?

Thank you for the time and response,
Matthew G.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello HIH,

My only other question would be this:

It's more about slandering the Divinity of Christ.

What does that mean to you?

Thank you for the time and response,
Matthew G.

It's an attack on the faith I have invested my entire life in, and as one set for the defense of the gospel, it tends to draw a reaction from me.

Am I understanding your question correctly or no?

 

[MatthewG]

What would you see if someone is Slandering the Divinity of Christ?

What would they be saying? How is it slandering?

Would someone slandering Christ be as saying Christ was a dirty bum?
Would someone slandering Christ be as saying Christ was gay?

Hope this helps,
Matthew G.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Greetings all.

I have a day or two off, and I was browsing the site and noticed we still have a lot of non-Trinitarians posting. So after looking into a few things I thought I would post something on the issue. As God wills, I will post additional parts to this series, but for now let me start with a passage where I think the non-Trinitarian argument isn't well supported.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

First the verse: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. John 17:5)

Now, quoting from Biblical Unitarian, here is their argument concerning this verse:

1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it would come into manifestation.

2. Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began, and would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth...
____________________
The problem with this argument is that Jesus in no uncertain terms asks to be clothed with the glory He had with the Father before the world began, not some glory that was "in the mind of God" before the world began. This is adding to the text to support a doctrinal bias.

I agree that a person's doctrines should not be formed out of doctrinal bias, as the author himself admitted when he stated, "It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God." But he is committing the very sin he is accusing others of. The word ought to be read for what it says, not what it has to be manipulated into saying in order to suit someone's preconceived notions.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

Not that I am antiTrinitarian, but I think Jesus is throwing the emphasis on the promise of glory, which existed before the foundation of the world, not that Jesus himself, existed at that time.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Not that I am antiTrinitarian, but I think Jesus is throwing the emphasis on the promise of glory, which existed before the foundation of the world, not that Jesus himself, existed at that time.

Greetings, Cady&Zoe.

This is in essence Wrangler's argument. I am waiting for him to respond to Post #24.

 

[GTW27]

The Son proceeded out of the bosom of The Father. And then we had emanuel(God with us)." And The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us, full of grace and truth;we have beheld His glory, glory as the only son of The Father." There are Three and yet They are One. It is not meant for us to understand this, it is for us to believe(faith) that this is so. And it is so. The Father The Son The Holy Spirit.

 

[marks]

Not that I am antiTrinitarian, but I think Jesus is throwing the emphasis on the promise of glory, which existed before the foundation of the world, not that Jesus himself, existed at that time.

I think the words must all be correct in the Bible, therefore, If Jesus had something then, He must have been there then to have it. Yes, He's putting the emphasis on glory, but He defines that glory as the glory He had before.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

One has to wonder why they are on Christian forums. Hoping to shake the faith of someone?

Why is anyone on Christian forums? Sometimes people do sincerely want to edify or to be edified in the God and the things of God... without regard to what they currently believe on any subject. Is this so impossible to accept or to understand?

 

[Enoch111]

Is this so impossible to accept or to understand?

What should also be understood clearly is that Satan has his minions on Christian forums to mislead, deceive, and confuse genuine Christians. If you are not aware of this spiritual battle, then be advised.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

God did say it, and the label if it is filled with grace and love is important for it means one follows Christ, which includes adhering to His doctrines. All non-Trinitarians are not lost, even people who do not know Jesus at all can be saved. I have witnessed the salvation of a non-Trinitarian who was grace-filled like the Prophets of old, but nonetheless concerning doctrine they are not Christians and their baptism is not valid and their "Churches" do not exist.

All the OT chosen nation who lived by faith were non-trinitarian. Christ's sacrifice was imputed to all of them. I real don't think many grasped the concept of a Triune God in the first century and apparently many still don't. Jesus did not regard this concept ( of beingbequal with God) as something man would readily grasp. Non-Trinitarians believe that Jesus was sent by the Father, whom He said was "My God and your God", that He died for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures. They follow and obey Him. Isn't that enough?

I thought believing in Jesus was the requirement of salvation, that is of course the faith of a Christian. The OT saints had faith in the coming Messiah as well but it was not clear that God would become man and dwell aoung us. They thought He would become King and sit on David's throne as LORD.
However, it is likely they do not worship, honor and regard Him equally as they do the Father.
There are other problems with this belief system, but I do not think it nullifies their faith/salvation.

 

[amadeus]

My biggest gripe with trinitarians is to believe that the trinity doctrine is the only way to confess Jesus as deity. Because they presume that all non trinitarians automatically believe Jesus is not God, they miss the depth of understanding that a literal begotten Son of God the Father is the greatest support for Jesus' claims to divinity. What else can a begotten Son of God be other than God Himself in the person of His Son?

People may complain a lot about the UPC, but while being strong against the Trinity, they are also strongly in favor of Jesus being God. There is a line one song they used to sing when I was among them that to me expressed their belief which went like this:

"Jesus is the name of the Father; Jesus is the name of the Son; Jesus is the name of the Holy Ghost, and all these three are One."

One descriptive name for the group is "Oneness, Jesus Only".

I was with the UPC and two other groups with similar beliefs [The UPC was in its beginning white, while one of the others was Hispanic and the third one was black.] By the time I was involved in them there was some color or race overlapping.

My family and I were members at times of all three groups. When we attended the black church, we were the only white family in a congregation of about 300. To this day my son [now age 42] still says it was the only church we attended regularly where he had no doubt that it was God's will for us to be there.

All three groups definitely believed in the Deity of Jesus, but were opposed to the Trinity!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Thank you for answering.

What it takes, I believe, to adhere to His doctrines is a continuous surrender to Him and then following the Holy Spirit which leads us into all Truth. Jesus is Truth! For me the following, the seeking is what the word, Christian, means, one who wants to and strive to become like Him. I guess you have a different definition.

Alone it is impossible come to that flawless vision of Him, but with God all things are possible. What man of us has arrived already at the "face to face" vision about which God inspired Solomon and David and Apostle Paul to write?

God is certainly not finished with me yet!

HELLO,
I am certain you are a Christian, a person with faith in Christ. What I am curious about is your understanding of who the Holy Spirit is, since you claim not to be a Trinitarian?
Do you think He is the Father's Spirit? Jesus said, the Father will send you "another Helper", a Comforter, Who will live in you and teach you all things I have taught you. Did He mean He would send Himself? I guess with this view, the other Helper has to be the FATHER as the Father was in Christ. We are in Christ. So that would mean there is ONE common Spirit of GOD, who descended on JESUS and then on the rest of us, including those of the OT. One God, the Father, whose Spirit transcends all.
That's a loaded question. There's more after that. I don't mean to put you on the hot seat, I just am curious how non-trinitarians view the Holy Spirit.

 

[amadeus]

What should also be understood clearly is that Satan has his minions on Christian forums to mislead, deceive, and confuse genuine Christians. If you are not aware of this spiritual battle, then be advised.

Our enemies are everywhere we go. I understand this. Is the best answer to cast out anyone that we believe is of the devil or is not of God or anyone who fails to line up with our own beliefs or doctrines? Did Jesus not address this issue here?

"So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matt 13:27-30

The "reapers" apparently will know which are tares and which are wheat and be able to work accordingly. I do not believe that anyone on this forum has already been qualified and designated as a "reaper"!