The Only Problem With The Trinity

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,068
2,188
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
God is Spirit.
The Bible tells us that GOD was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9 KJV

Where is the lie that you speak of?
.
“God is a spirit” according to John 4:24, but the Holy Spirit is not God. God’s Holy Spirit belongs to him, originates with him and is used by him to accomplish his will, but the Holy Spirit is not in itself an entity.
The fact of how the Holy Spirit is used by God throughout the scriptures is proof of that.
Jesus himself did not have the Holy Spirit until his baptism. He alone possessed it until he returned to heaven and promised that his Father would send his spirit to his disciples to comfort and help them.

This took place at Pentecost when those disciples were anointed to use those gifts imparted, to preach to many who had come to Jerusalem for the Festival. They continued to use the gifts until the last of the apostles died. Ability to pass on the Holy Spirit was by the laying on of hands of the apostles. When the apostles died, the gifts died with them. (Acts 1:4-9) These gifts were a demonstration of what will take place on a larger scale in “the new earth” to come. (2 Peter 3:13) Not a new planet but a cleansed earth ruled from heaven by God’s Kingdom. This is when Revelation 21:3-4 will have its fulfilment.
This is a wonderful hope and the theme of the entire Bible.....what we lost in Eden, and how God gets it back for us.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty
If you believe this, and you also know that God the Father is the Lord God Almighty, you already have two persons in the Godhead. Therefore it is not impossible that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aunty Jane

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,230
113
North America
Read what you wrote again......it is completely contradictory.
How can the pre-human Jesus be “firstborn of all creation” if he is the eternal God who created all things? God is a Father, who naturally existed before his created son. He is “the beginning of God’s creation” (Revelation 3:14)
The Father is the “begetter” who has to have existed first. God had no beginning, but the son does. Do you not see the problem?
John 3.16 shows that the only begotten Son, the One Who was given, was the Son already, when He was given.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,068
2,188
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
John 3.16 shows that the only begotten Son, the One Who was given, was the Son already, when He was given.
Yes, absolutely.....”only begotten” (Greek monogenes) literally means an “only child”. God is depicted as the Father of this “only begotten Son”. So how does a father beget a child who already exists? The begetter must of necessity, exist before the one he begets.
Why call themselves Father and Son if this is not their relationship?
 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,230
113
North America
Yes, absolutely.....”only begotten” (Greek monogenes) literally means an “only child”. God is depicted as the Father of this “only begotten Son”. So how does a father beget a child who already exists? The begetter must of necessity, exist before the one he begets.
Why call themselves Father and Son if this is not their relationship?
He was the eternal Son before He ever came into the world, sent by the Father.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Abaxvahl

Abaxvahl

Active Member
Sep 13, 2021
296
165
43
Earth
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, absolutely.....”only begotten” (Greek monogenes) literally means an “only child”. God is depicted as the Father of this “only begotten Son”. So how does a father beget a child who already exists? The begetter must of necessity, exist before the one he begets.
Why call themselves Father and Son if this is not their relationship?

It's simple: He is eternally begotten. There is a logical order and something which "precedes" and is called cause in the Trinity. The Father is Unbegotten and does not Proceed. The Son is Begotten of the Father in eternity. The Spirit is not Begotten but Proceeds from the Father through the Son. Why is it eternal? Because God is before time, which is the measure of things created, but God is uncreated.

Moreover, you make the point of Father and Son: when ever did a human father beget a dolphin for a son? When ever did a dog give birth to a giraffe? On the contrary a father only begets something of his own nature, but the nature of a creature and the nature of God are infinitely different, so if the Father is truly Father then His Son must also have the uncreated and eternal divine nature as well.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,068
2,188
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
He was the eternal Son before He ever came into the world, sent by the Father.
Please show me where it ever calls Jesus "the eternal son" anywhere in scripture?

There is only one entity in scripture that qualifies as "eternal" (literally meaning "no beginning or end") and that is the eternal Father.

Jesus is the "created" Son of God.....who did have a beginning.
Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus " “...the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation."

"Beginning" is the Greek "ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule." (Strongs Concordance)

Colossians 1:15 calls the Son...."the firstborn of all creation"...nowhere is the son ever said to be eternal.

He is the servant of his Father. (Acts 3:13, 26) How can God be his own servant?
 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,230
113
North America
Please show me where it ever calls Jesus "the eternal son" anywhere in scripture?

There is only one entity in scripture that qualifies as "eternal" (literally meaning "no beginning or end") and that is the eternal Father.

Jesus is the "created" Son of God.....who did have a beginning.
Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus " “...the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation."

"Beginning" is the Greek "ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule." (Strongs Concordance)

Colossians 1:15 calls the Son...."the firstborn of all creation"...nowhere is the son ever said to be eternal.

He is the servant of his Father. (Acts 3:13, 26) How can God be his own servant?
Hebrews 1: "...unto the Son He saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever". This is a quotation from Psalm 2, which was penned centuries before the Incarnation.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,068
2,188
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
It's simple: He is eternally begotten. There is a logical order and something which "precedes" and is called cause in the Trinity.
And that has what authority for me? I reject the trinity outright, so why quote what not relevant to any discussion with me?
Please use the scriptures as I do not regard anything else as equal to them.

The Father is Unbegotten and does not Proceed. The Son is Begotten of the Father in eternity. The Spirit is not Begotten but Proceeds from the Father through the Son. Why is it eternal? Because God is before time, which is the measure of things created, but God is uncreated.
And where are the scriptures again....? Please provide the scriptural basis for your beliefs.

Moreover, you make the point of Father and Son: when ever did a human father beget a dolphin for a son? When ever did a dog give birth to a giraffe? On the contrary a father only begets something of his own nature, but the nature of a creature and the nature of God are infinitely different, so if the Father is truly Father then His Son must also have the uncreated and eternal divine nature as well.
Oh dear, what an odd analogy :confused:.....God created his "firstborn" as a spirit being...made of the same substance as himself. (John 4:24) All spirit beings who dwell in heaven are spirit creatures. The spirit creature who became the human Jesus, was not begotten at his human birth, but at his creation "in the beginning".

There is no way to argue the trinity scripturally.....even the RCC who formulated the doctrine admits that it is not Biblical in origin.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
So if the Bible does not teach it, and the apostles did not teach it...where do you believe it came from?
 

Abaxvahl

Active Member
Sep 13, 2021
296
165
43
Earth
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And that has what authority for me? I reject the trinity outright, so why quote what not relevant to any discussion with me?
Please use the scriptures as I do not regard anything else as equal to them.


And where are the scriptures again....? Please provide the scriptural basis for your beliefs.


Oh dear, what an odd analogy :confused:.....God created his "firstborn" as a spirit being...made of the same substance as himself. (John 4:24) All spirit beings who dwell in heaven are spirit creatures. The spirit creature who became the human Jesus, was not begotten at his human birth, but at his creation "in the beginning".

There is no way to argue the trinity scripturally.....even the RCC who formulated the doctrine admits that it is not Biblical in origin.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
So if the Bible does not teach it, and the apostles did not teach it...where do you believe it came from?

Your Encyclopedia quote is irrelevant, moreover it doesn't even say what you think it says. I do not care for the opinions of men but of God, who alone is good. So that whole bit is irrelevant. My position: the Bible teaches it, the Apostles teach it, the Church has always worshipped the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, One God.

Moreover, a spirit does not have the same substance as God. God's substance isn't created so that doesn't even make sense and does not even resemble Christianity. If you hold that every single created spirit has the SAME SUBSTANCE as God then not only do we have the same substance as God (and so it would follow we are infinite, uncreated, eternal, etc) but so does every single irrational animal (see Ecclesiastes). "Same substance" is equivalent to "consubstantial" which is what Trinitarians believe, and it does not apply here at all.

As for Scriptures that support my beliefs here it is: that Christ is begotten (1 John 4:9 and the like), that He is eternally so (Hebrews 1:2 and the like), that the Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 15:26). The claims about time being created it is a necessary follow from change and God being unchangeable and all creatures being changeable having been made out of nothing, all of which is shown all over the Scriptures from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation I can genuinely say "it is everywhere."
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,068
2,188
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Hebrews 1: "...unto the Son He saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever". This is a quotation from Psalm 2, which was penned centuries before the Incarnation.
Not so fast there my friend.....
What does the next verse say?....

“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF JOY ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”


All in capitals is the quotation from Psalm 45:6-7, which says of the future glorious King...
"Your throne, God, is forever and ever;
The scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.


You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your companions."


So verse 9 of Hebrews 1 is talking about the God of this King....."God, your God has anointed you".
God cannot be a God to himself.
It is God's throne upon which his anointed son rules in his Kingdom.

Using scripture to interpret scripture instead of doctrine interpreting scripture, is more likely to lead you to the truth.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,068
2,188
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Your Encyclopedia quote is irrelevant, moreover it doesn't even say what you think it says. I do not care for the opinions of men but of God, who alone is good. So that whole bit is irrelevant. My position: the Bible teaches it, the Apostles teach it, the Church has always worshipped the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, One God.

Moreover, a spirit does not have the same substance as God. God's substance isn't created so that doesn't even make sense and does not even resemble Christianity. If you hold that every single created spirit has the SAME SUBSTANCE as God then not only do we have the same substance as God (and so it would follow we are infinite, uncreated, eternal, etc) but so does every single irrational animal (see Ecclesiastes). "Same substance" is equivalent to "consubstantial" which is what Trinitarians believe, and it does not apply here at all.

As for Scriptures that support my beliefs here it is: that Christ is begotten (1 John 4:9 and the like), that He is eternally so (Hebrews 1:2 and the like), that the Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 15:26). The claims about time being created it is a necessary follow from change and God being unchangeable and all creatures being changeable having been made out of nothing, all of which is shown all over the Scriptures from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation I can genuinely say "it is everywhere."
Methinks Christendom has taught you well.....go in peace, there is no point in further discussion.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,068
2,188
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
True, for "what has Christ to do with Belial," but God bless.

Indeed...o_O
"What sharing does a believer have with a unbeliever"?

images
images
images
images
images


There is no trinity in the Bible but they are found all over paganism....what sharing indeed....?
 

Cooper

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2020
2,776
866
113
Sheffield, Yorkshire, home of Robin Hood.
robinhood-loxley.weebly.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Read what you wrote again......it is completely contradictory.
How can the pre-human Jesus be “firstborn of all creation” if he is the eternal God who created all things? God is a Father, who naturally existed before his created son. He is “the beginning of God’s creation” (Revelation 3:14)
The Father is the “begetter” who has to have existed first. God had no beginning, but the son does. Do you not see the problem?
God is spirit, and the spirit came among us clothed in flesh. One God. God with us.

You have no idea. I have no wish to talk to you.
 
Last edited:

Cooper

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2020
2,776
866
113
Sheffield, Yorkshire, home of Robin Hood.
robinhood-loxley.weebly.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Perhaps you should try using a different translation? There is no such word in the Greek scriptures. The words used in the scriptures you quoted relate to divinity or divine nature, not to a trinitarian “Godhead” because to the Bible writers, there was no such thing.

Divinity or divine is who Jesus is.
G2320
θεότης
theotēs
theh-ot'-ace
From G2316; divinity - godhead.

Col 2:9 ForG3754 inG1722 himG846 dwellethG2730 allG3956 theG3588 fulnessG4138 of theG3588 GodheadG2320 bodily.G4985
.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,068
2,188
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
You have no idea. I have no wish to talk to you.

Divinity or divine is who Jesus is.
G2320
θεότης
theotēs
theh-ot'-ace
From G2316; divinity - godhead.

Col 2:9 ForG3754 inG1722 himG846 dwellethG2730 allG3956 theG3588 fulnessG4138 of theG3588 GodheadG2320 bodily.G4985

Trinitarians do not have three gods. There is only one omnipresent God in heaven, on earth and in our hearts.
Anything else you're not going to talk to me about?
happy0195.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,078
4,919
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No matter what a person believes about this trinity - that is a word and it considered not to be in the context of the bible or ever used in the old testament, or the new testament.

What is the matter is your own relationship with God and the Lord Jesus Christ. My hope is that people understand this and get a grip on the reality of that: Regardless obviously the Father, the Son, the Spirit of the Father exist. God, the Word of God, and the Spirit of God were all there the very beginning and in the new testament the Word of God became flesh and the holy spirit of God came upon him at his baptism.

God was with the Word of God through the Flesh of Jesus by the Spirit ~ Thus the Spirit of God by and through the Word of God ~ through the body of the flesh named Jesus - Was able to heal people and create them whole again because of the powers coming from the Father above through the Word by God's Spirit.

A person who seen Jesus in the flesh in that day in age: The Disciples for example could be able to see what the Father is like through the body of Jesus because of the Actions that Jesus had made pertaining to the righteousness of the spirit of God through out His entire life.

You see lowlyness, gentleness, truthfull speech towards others, love, sadness, grief, wonderance, marveling, Love, joy, peace, forgiveness, mercy, and stand firm statements against the Nation God chose to work through (Israel and their destruction). You see this through the Lord Jesus Christ as He goes on through his Missionary Journey for the Father in heaven.


Now this is not a commonly talked about description of biblical way that scripture explains things.

If you believe this or not does not really matter...

What does matter is having faith, and love for God and others.

Thank you for reading and considering,
Matthew G.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,068
2,188
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
No matter what a person believes about this trinity - that is a word and it considered not to be in the context of the bible or ever used in the old testament, or the new testament.

What is the matter is your own relationship with God and the Lord Jesus Christ. My hope is that people understand this and get a grip on the reality of that: Regardless obviously the Father, the Son, the Spirit of the Father exist. God, the Word of God, and the Spirit of God were all there the very beginning and in the new testament the Word of God became flesh and the holy spirit of God came upon him at his baptism.

God was with the Word of God through the Flesh of Jesus by the Spirit ~ Thus the Spirit of God by and through the Word of God ~ through the body of the flesh named Jesus - Was able to heal people and create them whole again because of the powers coming from the Father above through the Word by God's Spirit.

A person who seen Jesus in the flesh in that day in age: The Disciples for example could be able to see what the Father is like through the body of Jesus because of the Actions that Jesus had made pertaining to the righteousness of the spirit of God through out His entire life.

You see lowlyness, gentleness, truthfull speech towards others, love, sadness, grief, wonderance, marveling, Love, joy, peace, forgiveness, mercy, and stand firm statements against the Nation God chose to work through (Israel and their destruction). You see this through the Lord Jesus Christ as He goes on through his Missionary Journey for the Father in heaven.


Now this is not a commonly talked about description of biblical way that scripture explains things.

If you believe this or not does not really matter...

What does matter is having faith, and love for God and others.

Thank you for reading and considering,
Matthew G.
Very nicely stated, thank you....
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus
Status
Not open for further replies.