The Only Problem With The Trinity

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amadeus

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Not under this sun! Lol
I just looked...you've been here a long time!
Yes, as man counts time I guess I am an old timer here [since 2008].

I remember when I was 12 years old as a devout young Catholic Altar boy thinking to myself about just how smart I was compared to most of those dummy adults. It took me years to understand just how ignorant I was at age 12 and to understand how wise some of those adults were.

Now I have come back a point of realizing just how I dumb and/or ignorant I am when I am all alone with own thought alone... and I am 77. Without Him I would be nothing at all!
 

Truman

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Yes, as man counts time I guess I am an old timer here [since 2008].

I remember when I was 12 years old as a devout young Catholic Altar boy thinking to myself about just how smart I was compared to most of those dummy adults. It took me years to understand just how ignorant I was at age 12 and to understand how wise some of those adults were.

Now I have come back a point of realizing just how I dumb and/or ignorant I am when I am all alone with own thought alone... and I am 77. Without Him I would be nothing at all!
Well, it sounds to me like you've gained a little insight! Lol
 

amadeus

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Well, it sounds to me like you've gained a little insight! Lol
Yes, give God always the glory! If a man cannot realize his real short comings he is going to stumble and fall possibly even without scraping the skin on his knees. Sometimes the skin needs to be broken so that we can feel the pain and recognize our own frailty and our own vulnerability!
 

Desire Of All Nations

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God in Three Persons - Three Persons in one God - are so definitely there in the NT, that speculation as to other alternatives is not an option in my reading of the NT.
And therein lies a fundamental problem with trinitarians' mentality: their belief is based on elevating their opinions as a higher authority than anything the Bible actually teaches.

They reject what Jhn 1:1 saying there are only 2 God Beings.
They reject the fact that Paul never once refers to the Holy Spirit as a Person in his greetings to the Godhead.
They reject Christ saying He is NOT His Father's equal(Jhn 10:29, 13:16, 14:28, etc.).
They reject what Paul says about the Father being Christ's boss(1 Cor. 11:3).
They reject the angel Gabriel's statement in Luk. 1:35 that the Holy Spirit is God's power.

Why do trinitarians even own a bible or claim to be a Christian if they're going to reject what is in the Bible? If the trinity doctrine was biblical, that would mean Christ's Father is the Holy Spirit and not the Father. Matter of fact, if the trinity was already biblical, then why did trinitarian tranlators feel the need to add words to 1 Jhn 5 to "prove" it? Why is it that trinitarians never think about these things?
matt 28:19-20
i don't expect trinitarians to realize why, but using Matt. 28:19-20 as "proof" ironically disproves trinitarianism. Lost within the trinitarian attempts to use this passage as proof of a biblical trinity is the fact that Jesus told the apostles to make disciples who will have the Holy Spirit in them. And considering what Paul teaches in Rom. 8 about how possessing the Holy Spirit makes somebody an unborn child of God, it thoroughly proves that God is a Family and not the closed up trinity Satan wants people to think it is.

Belief in a closed up Godhead has a lot to do with why the Orthodox Jews tried to murder Christ for saying He was the Son of God, even when plenty of the OT passages like Gen. 1:26 shows God was going to build Himself a Family. For crying out loud, Paul called Christians "members of the household of God" in Eph. 2:19, Christ's fiancee in 2 Cor. 11:2, "heirs of God" in Rom. 8:17, future brothers of Christ in Rom. 8:29, and future Sons of God in Heb. 2. That is Family language! It boggles the mind that trinitarians can read all 14 of Paul's letters and still believe in a closed up trinity!
how could I have any authority over you, I’m not an apostle

contend for thee faith Jude 1:3
The Bible says contend for the faith(meaning biblical Christianity), not your faith(what you personally want to believe). It's tragic, but predictable, that many Catholics and Protestants can't tell the obvious difference between the 2 words.
 
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Aunty Jane

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The problem I see is that your interpretation of the bible doesn't suggest Jesus is God. At least that is what you argued. Might I suggest joining an orthodox church and studying under someone that agrees with the majority of people that read the bible.

I noticed that you were rationalizing away the true meaning of the scripture passages. I think we've all been there and done that, but it is not correct to do so.

Anyways, the vast majority of readers of the bible should be getting the same message. That means you're understanding it correctly and not having a flawed understanding. I would suggest going with the majority, which agrees with the trinity.
If you have read any of my posts then you will see that I have come out of “orthodox” Christianity because it was not based soundly on scripture. The scriptures themselves debunk the trinity outright.

If you count on ‘majority rules’ as your basis for belief, then I fear for you.....the devil has lured you into an old trap. The ‘majority’ rejected Jesus Christ....and why did they reject him? Because the religious leaders condemned him and convinced that majority that he was a fraud. That made every Jew who clamoured for his death complicit in his murder. They cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 27:25) Why do you think literal Israel has never known peace? They are still fighting over a piece of dirt that no longer matters.

Revelation speaks about “Babylon the great” and God commands his “people” to “get out of her” or else they will receive the plagues he has in store for her. (Revelation 18:2-8) Unless we can identify what “Babylon the great” is, we cannot obey that command.

I believe I have obeyed that command and that those who subscribe to “orthodox” Christianity might like to check out the parable of the “wheat and the weeds”...the message is there for all who have eyes to see....(Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43) The devil’s counterfeit has been accepted as the orthodox. Everything it teaches is God-dishonouring lies. (Matthew 15:7-9)
 
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Aunty Jane

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While I agree with you regarding the Trinity doctrine as portrayed in the creeds and many church manuals, I cannot agree with you regarding the Son. I have read 1 John numerous times. No where is there any hint that the relationship between Jesus and the Father is anything other than real. The Father/Son paradigm is not metaphorical. Nor did the Father become a Father at the incarnation. They two were two separate beings, persons, before creation, the Father creating all things through the agency of His Son.
KJV Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The Son is the express image of the Father, begotten with all the fullness of the Godhead. The Father is God, and the Son is God manifest.
Picture if you will two windows. Before creation. Before anything outside of God was created. God alone. No universe. No worlds. No angels. Just God. He fills the first window. That's all there is in that window. God and God alone. Then the Son is begotten. He isn't created, because scripture tells us the Son created everything. So He doesn't belong in the second window, He belongs in the first. He inherited all things from the Father. All that the Father is, the Son is.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16
Jesus told Nicodemus that God “gave” His Son. This is the everlasting gospel. If God did not possess a son then He would not have had a son to give. It must follow therefore that Christ was God’s “only begotten Son” before He came to earth.
That God gave His Son as a sacrifice for sin is the core-belief of Christianity. Without this belief, Christianity is meaningless. It is therefore a subject that not only demands our fullest attention but also needs great care when being presented. To get it wrong will pervert the gospel. A correct understanding of the atonement is totally dependent on a correct understanding of the relationship between God the Father and His Son.
Those who teach that Christ is not really the Son of God are perverting what it cost God in redeeming mankind from sin. They are also perverting, in the minds of those who believe what they say, the love that God has for humanity.
The apostle Paul wrote
“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:” Romans 8:3
“He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?” Romans 8:32
When expressing this great truth to his little flock, John the gospel writer put it this way
“Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.” 1 John 4:7-11
It is only when we realize that God really did give His Son that we can say we truly understand the gospel. Any other understanding of it is a perversion. In order to make manifest God’s love in the way that we treat others we need to correctly understand what God has done through His Son. It is only when we see the ‘other person’ (whoever that may be) as someone purchased by the blood of God’s only begotten Son that we are able to treat that person as they should be treated. Christ died for everyone. He did not die only for those who will be saved. We must regard everyone as the purchase of God. There are no exceptions.
John also wrote
“Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?…He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.” 1 John 5:5, 10-11
Begotten in the express image of God’s person
The Scriptures also tell us
“For it pleased the Father that in him [in Christ] should all fulness dwell; Colossians” 1:19
This is referring to the fullness of deity. As it says in Colossians 2:9
“For in him [in Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
The Scriptures tell us that it was God’s pleasure to have His fullness dwell in the Son. Christ therefore was God Himself (the fullness of deity) in the person of the Son (John 1:1-3, Hebrews 1:1-3). This was Christ’s inheritance as a son. As a son He received (inherited) all things from His father (God the Father). As we are told in the opening verses of the book of Hebrews
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:” Hebrews 1:1-3

I’d like to have a crack at this later....no time right now.
I love specifics.....it’s what led me out of Christendom.
Let the Bible speak for itself....
Later.....
 

Wrangler

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The begotten Son of God can only be God.

Not a logical thought to be seen. ‘The Sin of God’ is a title given to a man God selected.God selects us to be his children. That does not make us God.

God is unbegotten. Jesus, like all men, are begotten. Jesus died. Jesus is not God.
 

Truman

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Okay, when I'm in deep with the Lord, to my left is Yeshua, to my right is Ruach, and in the center and set back a bit is Abba.
Is this what you call the trinity? Sometimes He's 3, and sometimes He goes into 1.
I don't know how He does it, but He's God; He does what He wants.
This may sound unusual, but saying God is only 1, in my thinking, is bizarre!
 

Aunty Jane

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While I agree with you regarding the Trinity doctrine as portrayed in the creeds and many church manuals, I cannot agree with you regarding the Son. I have read 1 John numerous times. No where is there any hint that the relationship between Jesus and the Father is anything other than real. The Father/Son paradigm is not metaphorical. Nor did the Father become a Father at the incarnation. They two were two separate beings, persons, before creation, the Father creating all things through the agency of His Son.
I have read the Bible and nowhere can I find anything in the Father's relationship with the Son but a unity of spirit and a oneness of purpose.
As God's "only begotten" son, we have to figure out how the Son is "only begotten" when God has many other "sons"....his angelic sons.....even Adam is called a "son of God" (Luke 3:38) because he was created, not born of a woman.

KJV Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
My pick of scripture to define the relationship of Father to Son and who created what, would be Colossians 1:15-17....
"15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together".

So being the "image" of his God and Father, (an image is not the real thing but a reflection of it. Like the moon reflects the sun's light, so Jesus reflected his Father's perfect qualities) the Son was used by the Creator as the agency "through" which creation came to be.....meaning that the Son is not the Creator but his 'construction engineer' if you like. So that makes the Son the only direct creation of his Father....hence his "only-begotten" status....God's "firstborn"....his very first creative act. Revelation 3:14 describes Jesus as "the beginning [or first] of God's creation".
This is however another verse interfered with by trinitarian translators, using "origin" to indicate something else entirely.
"archē" is translated more often as "beginning" than any other rendering according Strongs Concordance.
Proverbs 8:30-31 also confirms that the Son, portrayed as Wisdom personified in this scripture, was at his Father's side in creation...as his "Master Workman" ("'āmôn"....meaning artificer, architect, master workman, skilled workman.)

The Son is the express image of the Father, begotten with all the fullness of the Godhead. The Father is God, and the Son is God manifest.
There is no such word in all of scripture as "godhead"...it is an invented word.
"theotēs" means "deity", and it is the only place you will find this word in the Christian scriptures. A similar Greek word, theiótes, which appears only at Romans 1:20 is rendered "divine nature". So again we get back to translation bias and the KJV is one of the worst for this. Jesus is a divine being...but he is not God.No one can contest his divinity, but that does not mean that he is his Father's equal. The Father is God..."the Most High over all the earth" (Psalm 83:18)

Before creation. Before anything outside of God was created. God alone. No universe. No worlds. No angels. Just God. He fills the first window. That's all there is in that window. God and God alone. Then the Son is begotten. He isn't created, because scripture tells us the Son created everything. So He doesn't belong in the second window, He belongs in the first. He inherited all things from the Father. All that the Father is, the Son is.
Not how I see it at all....
Since Revelation 3:14 clearly states that the pre-human Jesus was a "creation" of his Father and Paul also confirmed this in Colossians 1:15, I see the Son as the first of all created things.
The Greek word ("monogenēs") is defined by lexicographers (Thayer; Liddell and Scott) as meaning “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.” The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents....an "only child". It is not a special term for the relationship of God to his son....though the relationship itself is unique and special.
 

Aunty Jane

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Backlit said:
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16
Jesus told Nicodemus that God “gave” His Son. This is the everlasting gospel. If God did not possess a son then He would not have had a son to give. It must follow therefore that Christ was God’s “only begotten Son” before He came to earth.
Absolutely correct....the pre-human Jesus was "with" God "in the beginning"...the beginning of creation. He has always been the "Logos" or God's spokesman. In any situation where God spoke to his earthly servants, he did so by means of his Logos.

That God gave His Son as a sacrifice for sin is the core-belief of Christianity. Without this belief, Christianity is meaningless. It is therefore a subject that not only demands our fullest attention but also needs great care when being presented. To get it wrong will pervert the gospel. A correct understanding of the atonement is totally dependent on a correct understanding of the relationship between God the Father and His Son.
Those who teach that Christ is not really the Son of God are perverting what it cost God in redeeming mankind from sin. They are also perverting, in the minds of those who believe what they say, the love that God has for humanity.
I couldn't agree more.....Jesus is what he called himself..."the Son of God"...never did he call himself "God the Son"....that is why I studied the Bible for myself instead of swallowing rhetoric from so called seminary or theologically trained teachers.

Jesus chose uneducated men to become his apostles because the teaching institutions in Judaism had been corrupted with the false teachings of the Pharisees. He called what they taught, "leaven" which was used in this instance as a corrupting agent.....'a little could ferment the whole lump'.
That is how I see Christendom's teachings....totally corrupted. Men with letters after their names telling others what they think the Bible teaches. They know their 'theology', but their Bible knowledge is usually appalling.

When I was asking my questions...."I dunno" was not an acceptable answer. They should know.....its their business and responsibility to know, otherwise they have no business teaching others the same lies that they have swallowed for centuries.

The apostle Paul wrote
“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:” Romans 8:3
“He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?” Romans 8:32
When expressing this great truth to his little flock, John the gospel writer put it this way
“Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.” 1 John 4:7-11

It is only when we realize that God really did give His Son that we can say we truly understand the gospel. Any other understanding of it is a perversion.
Please forgive me but I simply detest the KJV with its archaic English.....no one speaks that language anymore......modern translations please.I like to use a range of translations and compare using BibleGateway and Strongs Concordance. You get a better appreciation for the fullness of the text that way.

Can you explain how Jesus' death saves anyone? As you said this is the core of the gospels....so what are the mechanics of salvation? How does Jesus' death "redeem" us? This is something that was talked about in church but no one could make sense of it for me.
I have a handle on it now through study...but how would you answer according to that scripture? Break it down for me.

In order to make manifest God’s love in the way that we treat others we need to correctly understand what God has done through His Son. It is only when we see the ‘other person’ (whoever that may be) as someone purchased by the blood of God’s only begotten Son that we are able to treat that person as they should be treated. Christ died for everyone. He did not die only for those who will be saved. We must regard everyone as the purchase of God. There are no exceptions.
I really don't know how you can say that. If "few" are on "the road to life" as Jesus said (Matthew 7:13-14).....where does that leave the ones on the other road? And if Jesus rejects "many" who claim him as their "Lord" at the judgment, but who fail to "do the will of the father", what about them? Jesus says he "never knew" them. Never means "not ever". (Matthew 7:21-23)
And the "goats".....what becomes of them when Jesus separates out the "sheep"? (Matthew 25:21-46) Where is that place reserved for the devil and his hordes?
You seem to be ignoring a lot of scripture here....It sounds nice that everyone is saved, but that is not the message Jesus presented.

If you go back to the garden of Eden, you will see that continuing life was conditional right from the beginning.....it required obedience to God's commands. Disobedience carried the death penalty.....it did in Noah's day...it did in the days of ancient Israel....God's laws are not negotiable.
Today as in all times past....obedience leads to life...disobedience leads to death. Not really that complicated.
 

Brakelite

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As God's "only begotten" son, we have to figure out how the Son is "only begotten" when God has many other "sons"....his angelic sons.....even Adam is called a "son of God" (Luke 3:38) because he was created, not born of a woman.
There are a number of very important times when Jesus referred to Himself as a son. One such occasion was when He said to Nicodemus “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:16-18
A complete offering has been made; for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"-- not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

So being the "image" of his God and Father, (an image is not the real thing but a reflection of it. Like the moon reflects the sun's light, so Jesus reflected his Father's perfect qualities)
We imperfectly reflect our human father's image. We are not exact replicas. However, as like begets like, we humans don't beget lizards or birds that look like us, but humans. God's begotten Son is God begotten. God didn't beget a different species... Remember, like begets like.
In the Bible we find that Christ is called the “Son of God” 48 times, “only begotten” 6 times, “firstborn” 4 times and “the firstbegotten” 1 time. Not once does the Bible even so much as hint that Jesus is only a Son in a metaphorical sense or in the sense He was created. The firstborn means just that. It cannot be confused with created beings. Adam was not the firstborn. He was made, fashioned from an existing material. 'created' of you like. The true firstborn was the Son of God, then Abel. The Son of God was an entirely different matter, born of the Father and made in the express image...a perfect 'reproduction' if you will. Abel was born in the image of his father, Adam.
John’s gospel is a divinely inspired theology. It was to show that Christ is truly the Son of God. It was this belief that would defeat Satan’s purposes. This was the intent of God in inspiring John to write it ( KJV John 20:31)
With respect to Christ, this helps us to understand why John used the word ‘monogenes’. He used it in opposition to Satan’s continuing deceptions that Christ was not really the Son of God, and the growing number of heresies as you slides to that were becoming common during John's ministry. It was to show that Christ truly is the unique One – the only begotten of God. Regarding John’s usage of ‘monogenes’, the verses in which this word is found are as follows (as in the KJV)
John 1:14
John 1:18
John 3:16
John 3:18
1 John 4:9
John used ‘monogenes’ as a word expressing Christ’s pre-existent relationship with God the Father.
Christ the Son of God - the foundational belief of Christianity. The belief that Christ is the Son of God is the very foundation of the Christian faith. As the apostle Paul wrote “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:11 Jesus Himself has also told us “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 This is the very heart of the gospel. As a sacrifice to pay the penalty of sin, God gave His one and only Son. It is God’s sacrifice of His Son which is our atonement with God – not anything that we do. Remember that Jesus asked His disciples “… Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? (Matthew 16:13) In answer to this question, the disciples replied that some were saying that He was John the Baptist; some were saying He was Elijah whilst others said He was Jeremiah or one of the other prophets. Jesus then made it a far more personal question. He asked “… But whom say ye that I am? Matthew 16:15 Peter replied “… Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Matthew 16:16 Jesus responded to Peter by saying that his confession was not of human origin but that which God the Father had revealed to him (see Matthew 16:17). Jesus then told His disciples that His church would be built upon Peter’s confession – also that nothing would prevail against it (verse 18). He said “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. Matthew 16:18 Some say that “this rock” was Peter himself but this cannot be true. When he denied Christ, “the gates of hell” did “prevail against” him. Peter was no foundation upon which Christ could build His church. He was an easily moveable stone. When Jesus said “this rock” he was referring to Peter’s confession of faith. This was that Jesus was “the Son of the living God”. Jesus was referring to Himself as “this rock”.
That is how I see Christendom's teachings....totally corrupted.
Not totally, else Christ's promise of hell's inability to prevail has failed. There have always been a remnant who have not bowed their knees to Baal.

Can you explain how Jesus' death saves anyone? As you said this is the core of the gospels....so what are the mechanics of salvation? How does Jesus' death "redeem" us? This is something that was talked about in church but no one could make sense of it for me.
I have a handle on it now through study...but how would you answer according to that scripture? Break it down for me.
God, even before creation, would have foreseen the fall. A form of rebellion beginning with the angels under Lucifer's slanders and lies regarding God's government, and continuing on earth in the garden. The government of God was founded on love. Eve believed Satan that God was holding out on her, that He was being selfish. So she wanted to be like God, although she was already like Him. So entered selfishness, covetousness, disobedience, idolatry, theft, etc. Sin. There only one definition of sin in scripture. Transgression of the law. That same law required death for transgression. Only one equal to the law... Equal in sacredness and holiness, could atone for it's transgression. The Son of God, the Lawgiver of Sinai, accepted that death upon Himself in our place. As we place our trust in Him, repent of our sin, and place our lives into His hands that He may transform us into His own image as Adam was before the fall, them we are 'saved'.

You seem to be ignoring a lot of scripture here....It sounds nice that everyone is saved, but that is not the message Jesus presented.
I didn't say everyone was saved. I said Christ shed His blood for everyone, that whosoever will, may come to Him to be saved.
KJV 1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
 

Aunty Jane

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If you go back to the garden of Eden, you will see that continuing life was conditional right from the beginning.....it required obedience to God's commands. Disobedience carried the death penalty.....it did in Noah's day...it did in the days of ancient Israel....God's laws are not negotiable.
Today as in all times past....obedience leads to life...disobedience leads to death. Not really that complicated.

We imperfectly reflect our human father's image. We are not exact replicas. However, as like begets like, we humans don't beget lizards or birds that look like us, but humans. God's begotten Son is God begotten. God didn't beget a different species... Remember, like begets like.
I think we are at cross purposes here....I have never once denied Christ as "the Son of God"...but I do deny him as "God the Son"....the reason being that Jesus never once claimed equality with his God and Father. If Jesus never said he was God, (not once) then why does Christendom continue to promote this lie?
"God is a spirit" according to John 4:24 and all who dwell in the spirit realm, are also spirits.
Like does beget like. Jesus was a glorious spirit being before coming to earth as a human.

Yahweh (Jehovah) has always been the God and Father of Jesus.....even in heaven. If they were two parts of one and the same entity, that would be ridiculous.
Revelation 3:12...these are Jesus words after his return to heaven when he presented the Revelation to the apostle John.
"He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name."

Jesus repeats the words "my God" four times in this one verse. How can God have a God?
How does one part of God worship his equal self? Trinitarians cannot explain.....its not a mystery...its a lie.

John used ‘monogenes’ as a word expressing Christ’s pre-existent relationship with God the Father.
Yes, as God's "firstborn", "only begotten", the pre-human Jesus was in existence before anything or anyone else. He 'pre-existed' all other things as Paul says in Colossians 1:15-17.

Christ the Son of God - the foundational belief of Christianity. The belief that Christ is the Son of God is the very foundation of the Christian faith.
Yes, and I have not denied it. What made you think I had? "Christ as the Son of God" IS the foundational belief of Christianity....but it is not the foundational belief of Christendom. The trinity is their substitute, and it is entirely blasphemous. It is a clear breach of the First Commandment.
They have put another "god" in the Father's place. (Exodus 20:3; Deuteronomy 6:4)

In answer to this question, the disciples replied that some were saying that He was John the Baptist; some were saying He was Elijah whilst others said He was Jeremiah or one of the other prophets. Jesus then made it a far more personal question. He asked “… But whom say ye that I am? Matthew 16:15 Peter replied “… Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Matthew 16:16 Jesus responded to Peter by saying that his confession was not of human origin but that which God the Father had revealed to him (see Matthew 16:17). Jesus then told His disciples that His church would be built upon Peter’s confession – also that nothing would prevail against it (verse 18).
He said “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.
OK...so what are the "gates of hell" here? What is Jesus actually saying? "Hell" in this verse is "hades". What do you understand "hades" to be?
There are a few words in Greek that are translated as "hell". So please provide your understanding of this passage.....and why the other words are translated that way? What is Gehenna? and how is it different to hades?

Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “from . . . helan to conceal.” So the word “hell” originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment, but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’
The Encyclopedia Americana stated: “While there are many and significant variations of detail the main features of hell as conceived by Hindu, Persian, Egyptian, Grecian, Hebrew and Christian theologians are essentially the same.”
The origins of this concept are therefore not scriptural.
 

Aunty Jane

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Peter was no foundation upon which Christ could build His church. He was an easily moveable stone. When Jesus said “this rock” he was referring to Peter’s confession of faith. This was that Jesus was “the Son of the living God”. Jesus was referring to Himself as “this rock”.
Again, referring back to the Greek...
Peter was quick with his answer to Jesus' question: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, [Petros "a stone or pebble", masculine gender] and on this rock [petra, "a rock-mass", feminine gender] I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:16-18. RSV)

He was not telling Peter that he was the Rock upon which the Church would be built....Jesus was saying that he himself was the Rock upon which his church would be built. How is that not obvious? He is the very foundation cornerstone. (Matthew 21:42)

Did you notice that in this translation that "hades" is rendered "death"? What do you think about that?

Not totally, else Christ's promise of hell's inability to prevail has failed. There have always been a remnant who have not bowed their knees to Baal.
I agree here, but Jesus' promise to be "with" his disciples "till the end of the age" has to tie in with his parable of the "wheat and the weeds".
Jesus promised that at the time of the harvest, the weeds would be separated out and disposed of.....then the wheat would be gathered into his storehouse. So the "wheat and the weeds" have always been "growing together" in the world.....but at the harvest time (the time for Christ's return) we would see a complete separation between the two. No longer similar.....not resembling one another at all.

Understanding some background to that parable you will see that the "weed" Jesus referred to was likely 'bearded darnel'...a common weed in the Middle East and a noxious pest. In the early growing season the two plants looked identical, (it is often called wheat's evil twin) but when the grain is in the head, the difference becomes obvious.
The servants of the owner of the field, asked the Master if they should remove the weeds? But he said No! Why? Because an enemy would try to destroy his neighbors crop by over-sowing it with this weed. By the time there was ways to tell that darnel had been sown, the weeds had entangled with the roots system of the wheat. You could not remove one without damaging the other, so they were to wait till the harvest and remove the weeds first, leaving the wheat to be gathered. If you understand that this is what satan did.....you should be able to see what is taking place in 'Christianity' up until today. Christendom does not follow Christ's teachings at all.

God, even before creation, would have foreseen the fall. A form of rebellion beginning with the angels under Lucifer's slanders and lies regarding God's government, and continuing on earth in the garden. The government of God was founded on love. Eve believed Satan that God was holding out on her, that He was being selfish. So she wanted to be like God, although she was already like Him. So entered selfishness, covetousness, disobedience, idolatry, theft, etc. Sin. There only one definition of sin in scripture. Transgression of the law. That same law required death for transgression. Only one equal to the law... Equal in sacredness and holiness, could atone for it's transgression. The Son of God, the Lawgiver of Sinai, accepted that death upon Himself in our place. As we place our trust in Him, repent of our sin, and place our lives into His hands that He may transform us into His own image as Adam was before the fall, them we are 'saved'.
I see it only a little differently....I see that Gods' law required like for like....i.e. "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life". Atonement is literally "at-one-ment"...one for one. I never understood how Jesus' life redeemed mankind. But when Adam sinned, he took perfect sinless life away from all his children. For his sin, he paid with his own life, but there was no one to pay for the sinless life lost for all of us. So a perfect sinless life had to come from outside the now sinful human race and be offered in exchange. Hence the necessity for Jesus to be born as a human child, but without any sinful genetics getting in the way. He did that willingly because of the love that he and his Father have for the human race.
His single sacrifice paid the redemption price, which was set in God's law.

(BTW, nowhere in the Bible is satan called Lucifer. I was surprised about that one....just thought I'd mention it.)

I didn't say everyone was saved. I said Christ shed His blood for everyone, that whosoever will, may come to Him to be saved.
KJV 1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Sorry, I misunderstood....yes, it is open to all, but unfortunately, not many will accept it on the terms under which it is offered.
If "few" are on the road to life, it means that the majority are not. What disqualifies them? And why does Jesus reject those who call him "Lord"? (Matthew 7:21-23)
It is very apparent that just calling yourself a "Christian" is not enough...

Looking at the Pharisees, we can see that Jesus sentenced them to "gehenna".....(Matthew 23:33) because of their false teachings. They had led the people away from God and away from their savior. Christendom IMO has done the same thing.
 

Cooper

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...
There is no such word in all of scripture as "godhead"...it is an invented word.
"theotēs" means "deity", and it is the only place you will find this word in the Christian scriptures. A similar Greek word, theiótes, which appears only at Romans 1:20 is rendered "divine nature". So again we get back to translation bias and the KJV is one of the worst for this. Jesus is a divine being...but he is not God.No one can contest his divinity, but that does not mean that he is his Father's equal. The Father is God..."the Most High over all the earth" (Psalm 83:18)
Not true. Godhead IS in the Bible.

Acts of the Apostles 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

(Colossians 2:8-10) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.
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Cooper

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... So doctrinally, after much research and Bible study I rejected the trinity.....immortality of the human soul, and a hell of fiery torment.
To deny the deity of the omnipresent God with us is to deny the very God himself.

According as his (Christ) divine(G2304 theios) power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 2 Peter 1:3 KJV

In an act of divine POWER, Jesus sent the Comforter, and has given us all things that pertain unto LIFE and GODLINESS.

Only God can do what Jesus did when he ascended BACK into heaven.
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Cooper

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I have read the Bible and nowhere can I find anything in the Father's relationship with the Son but a unity of spirit and a oneness of purpose.
As God's "only begotten" son, we have to figure out how the Son is "only begotten" when God has many other "sons"....his angelic sons.....even Adam is called a "son of God" (Luke 3:38) because he was created, not born of a woman.


My pick of scripture to define the relationship of Father to Son and who created what, would be Colossians 1:15-17....
"15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together".

So being the "image" of his God and Father, (an image is not the real thing but a reflection of it. Like the moon reflects the sun's light, so Jesus reflected his Father's perfect qualities) the Son was used by the Creator as the agency "through" which creation came to be.....meaning that the Son is not the Creator but his 'construction engineer' if you like. So that makes the Son the only direct creation of his Father....hence his "only-begotten" status....God's "firstborn"....his very first creative act. Revelation 3:14 describes Jesus as "the beginning [or first] of God's creation".
This is however another verse interfered with by trinitarian translators, using "origin" to indicate something else entirely.
"archē" is translated more often as "beginning" than any other rendering according Strongs Concordance.
Proverbs 8:30-31 also confirms that the Son, portrayed as Wisdom personified in this scripture, was at his Father's side in creation...as his "Master Workman" ("'āmôn"....meaning artificer, architect, master workman, skilled workman.)


There is no such word in all of scripture as "godhead"...it is an invented word.
"theotēs" means "deity", and it is the only place you will find this word in the Christian scriptures. A similar Greek word, theiótes, which appears only at Romans 1:20 is rendered "divine nature". So again we get back to translation bias and the KJV is one of the worst for this. Jesus is a divine being...but he is not God.No one can contest his divinity, but that does not mean that he is his Father's equal. The Father is God..."the Most High over all the earth" (Psalm 83:18)


Not how I see it at all....
Since Revelation 3:14 clearly states that the pre-human Jesus was a "creation" of his Father and Paul also confirmed this in Colossians 1:15, I see the Son as the first of all created things.
The Greek word ("monogenēs") is defined by lexicographers (Thayer; Liddell and Scott) as meaning “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.” The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents....an "only child". It is not a special term for the relationship of God to his son....though the relationship itself is unique and special.
Before anything existed, Jesus aka Yahweh WAS the FIRSTBORN of all creation. There was no one before him. Then, Yahweh, the One God humbled himself and came to his own.
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Cooper

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.... Jesus repeats the words "my God" four times in this one verse. How can God have a God?
How does one part of God worship his equal self? Trinitarians cannot explain.....its not a mystery...
its a lie.
God is Spirit.
The Bible tells us that GOD was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9 KJV

Where is the lie that you speak of?
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Aunty Jane

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Not true. Godhead IS in the Bible.

Acts of the Apostles 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

(Colossians 2:8-10) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.
Perhaps you should try using a different translation? There is no such word in the Greek scriptures. The words used in the scriptures you quoted relate to divinity or divine nature, not to a trinitarian “Godhead” because to the Bible writers, there was no such thing.

The trinity is an invention of the church, not even establish in their official doctrine until the 4th century, so it is not found in the Bible at all unless it is forced into English translations by interfering with the way such verses are rendered. The KJV is one of the biggest offenders, but if you take it as the only translation you use, you will never understand how badly it translates, using an archaic language that no one speaks anymore. What is the purpose of translation if it does not accurately convey the original language thoughts?

It was the apostate church who introduced ideas of a triune god when there is no mention of such a god in all of scripture. But trinities of gods existed in paganism long before Christ walked the earth.
Revelation 3:12 confirms that even in heaven Yahweh is still the God of Jesus, his son.

Why is Christendom the only Abrahamic religion to teach this?
Jesus was Jewish and they had no such idea because the Shema declared that.....”Yahweh our God is one” (Deuterons my 6:4)....for Jesus to state that he was Yahweh would have been blasphemy which was a capital offence. If Jesus had been put to death as a guilty man, that would have denied him as Messiah. He had to be guiltless. Their accusations of blasphemy had to be groundless. He died as an innocent man.
 

Aunty Jane

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Before anything existed, Jesus aka Yahweh WAS the FIRSTBORN of all creation. There was no one before him. Then, Yahweh, the One God humbled himself and came to his own.
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Read what you wrote again......it is completely contradictory.
How can the pre-human Jesus be “firstborn of all creation” if he is the eternal God who created all things? God is a Father, who naturally existed before his created son. He is “the beginning of God’s creation” (Revelation 3:14)
The Father is the “begetter” who has to have existed first. God had no beginning, but the son does. Do you not see the problem?
 
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