Why do you feel it is so hard to be good?

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What does it mean to you that Salvation is of God? That salvation is by God? That salvation is by grace?

He gives the conviction of sin and lostness. He gives the power to be saved. And he picks the time and the place for a person to choose to use that power to be saved.

Not wanting to go to hell is not a self righteous act that would somehow make salvation by works.

Is that it for you? If you want to add to that and say more, please do so.

Tong
R4449

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Some teach that some of the sheep under the care of the Lord Jesus Christ could be lost. How? They argue that while the passage says that nobody can snatch the sheep out of Jesus’ hands and the Father’s hand, it does not say they they could not of themselves jump off the sheep pen or of their own no longer follow Christ. They say and argue that they could, in their own free will, cease to believe or that they would believe no longer, and so become unbelievers. Thus, these sheep could lose their salvation by that.

What does it matter if a person is lost because they stop believing, or because they were never saved to begin with? They're lost either way. It's a very meaningless contention. We need to focus on and do what the Bible says...keep believing, and stop arguing about meaningless things.

<<<What does it matter if a person is lost because they stop believing, >>>

The truth is the matter. For it is not truth that those who truly believes and trust in their heart in God, in Him whom He sent, the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, with firmness and love, will stop believing and be just the opposite and be lost.

The light shines, and the light goes something like this. That no one (of the sheep) will not be kept secured by the Good Shepherd and the Father who gave Him the sheep, from thieves and wolves, and from being separated from Him and be forever lost.

That matters. Perhaps not to you, but it does to me. And that is not at all a meaningless thing.

Tong
R4450

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
But if they only would try to see and look at WHO is the Good Shepherd under whose care and keeping they are now, and think about what the Good Shepherd had given up for them and have done to save them…….and just ponder upon what love the Good Shepherd have for His sheep

That's right. Those are the reasons the Bible tells us to keep believing.

"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess." Hebrews 4:14

"Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful." Hebrews 10:23
​

The greatness of the Ministry and Sacrifice of Christ and the love of God doesn't make it so you aren't able to stop believing. It's because of the greatness of Christ and the love of God that we should continue to believe. That is very clear what the above passages are saying. The message of the Bible is to KEEP BELIEVING.

Why not see? Why not address the argument? Why agree and put up an argument that tends to go against your agreement? Why?

<<<Those are the reasons the Bible tells us to keep believing.>>>

What in my post are the reasons you refer to?

Tong
R4451

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And that justification really is on the account of faith.

There is being justified by faith. And there is being justified by works. The justification by works that James is talking about is NOT 'your works earn you right standing with God'. If that were true, then James is saying Abraham earned his right standing with God by offering Isaac up on the altar. Obviously, that is not what James is saying. He's saying Abraham was justified as having faith by what he did.

"...I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18

"As you can see (by Abraham's example), a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone." James 2:24​

James tells us what being justified by works means. Abraham was justified as having faith because you could see his faith in what he did. But the church says, "I do not need to be justified that way because that would be works. I only need to be justified by faith alone." They are oblivious to the fact that if they were really justified by faith they'd have the life to show for it, and so they would, too, be justified by what they do, as Abraham was. But since the church does not understand this teaching, they think people who say they are saved and believe in God, but live in unchanged, unrepentant lives, are saved people, too. This horrible teaching in the church is deceiving millions into thinking they are saved when in fact they are not. Ultimately, if you can not see in your own life that you are saved by faith, then you aren't. You just think you are because you say you believe in Christ. That's called faith 'alone'—faith that is absent of righteous works to match one's confession of faith. That faith is a fake faith. It can not save you.

<<<There is being justified by faith. And there is being justified by works. >>>

Yes. However, the two aren’t the same.

<<<He's saying Abraham was justified as having faith by what he did.>>>

It is about showing having faith and what faith he have, by his work.

So my questions for you are: 1. In whose eyes or sight is he justified by works? 2 Who do you say accounts his good works for righteousness which justifies him?

Tong
R4452

 

[Tong2020]

Yes, works is trying to keep God's laws with only our own willpower, instead of the divine power of God. That is what was being portrayed in Romans 7:14-23 - knowing the law, but keeping them in your own weakness.

The Spirit not only frees us from the sin nature that caused us to sin, but the written laws that were suppose to show us our sin. They became unnecessary to those who walk in the Spirit because God's laws and the fruit of the Spirit making the laws unnecessary, are the completion of the gospel. It is what Jesus came to do. And He accomplished what He came to do.

A doctrine of demons would twist this to say we will always sin while in these bodies. The body has nothing to do with sin. It is our nature that controls the body, and when the nature is divine, the body follows it.

<<<Yes, works is trying to keep God's laws with only our own willpower, instead of the divine power of God.>>>

My thoughts on that is this. Whether work is that or not, is not the matter. The matter is, whose work is it? And what is the work for, that it is done?

If it is your work, regardless that is with one’s own willpower or else’s, or the power gifted to him by God, it remains to be his work, not God’s nor any body else’s. And it is his will and intent or purpose, that is embodied in that work, not any body else’s. So, who do you say is rightly credited with the work done?

Tong
R4453

 

[1stCenturyLady]

<<<Yes, works is trying to keep God's laws with only our own willpower, instead of the divine power of God.>>>

My thoughts on that is this. Whether work is that or not, is not the matter. The matter is, whose work is it? And what is the work for, that it is done?

If it is your work, regardless that is with one’s own willpower or else’s, or the power gifted to him by God, it remains to be his work, not God’s nor any body else’s. And it is his will and intent or purpose, that is embodied in that work, not any body else’s. So, who do you say is rightly credited with the work done?

Tong
R4453

I'm talking about purity. I'm not sure what work you mean. Ministry?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Yes, works is trying to keep God's laws with only our own willpower, instead of the divine power of God.>>>

My thoughts on that is this. Whether work is that or not, is not the matter. The matter is, whose work is it? And what is the work for, that it is done?

If it is your work, regardless that is with one’s own willpower or else’s, or the power gifted to him by God, it remains to be his work, not God’s nor any body else’s. And it is his will and intent or purpose, that is embodied in that work, not any body else’s. So, who do you say is rightly credited with the work done?

I'm talking about purity. I'm not sure what work you mean. Ministry?

I was taking your statement…

<<<Yes, works is trying to keep God's laws with only our own willpower, instead of the divine power of God.>>>

… in the context that it was part of your response to FerrisB’s response to my question to him, that is,…..

<<<What does it mean to you that Salvation is of God? That salvation is by God? That salvation is by grace?>>>

Tong
R4457

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I was taking your statement…

<<<Yes, works is trying to keep God's laws with only our own willpower, instead of the divine power of God.>>>

… in the context that it was part of your response to FerrisB’s response to my question to him, that is,…..

<<<What does it mean to you that Salvation is of God? That salvation is by God? That salvation is by grace?>>>

Tong
R4457

Grace is the divine power of God. He gives us His power to not sin. Seeing as we will sin because of the sin nature we were born with, we cannot be good enough on our own to be holy, and without holiness, no man shall see God. So God does it for us for those who acknowledge this weakness to sin, and want's His help. He nails the old nature figuratively to the cross of Jesus, and creates a new nature in us that partakes of the divine nature of God.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Is that it for you? If you want to add to that and say more, please do so.

Tong
R4449

I received God's invitation to salvation because I did not want to sin anymore and go to hell when I die. Then, after getting saved, I received the Holy Spirit and could then see God through the eyes of love. And I've been growing up into that relationship ever since.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

For it is not truth that those who truly believes and trust in their heart in God, in Him whom He sent, the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, with firmness and love, will stop believing and be just the opposite and be lost.

You are certainly entitled to your harmless opinion about the matter. Just as I am mine.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That no one (of the sheep) will not be kept secured by the Good Shepherd and the Father who gave Him the sheep, from thieves and wolves, and from being separated from Him and be forever lost.

I believe this. In fact, it's the reason we are told to stay in The Son and the Father. That is the place that is secure. You can't remain secure in a place that you choose to not dwell in anymore.

I don't know why people instantly think that believing a person can depart from God and salvation means Christ and his ministry are not secure. It means you need to stay where you are secure by continuing to believe and trust in that which is secure. That's what the Bible says to do.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That matters. Perhaps not to you, but it does to me. And that is not at all a meaningless thing.

It's meaningless in that it is impractical.
We both agree that one must continue to believe in order to be saved. You just think you have no choice but to believe, while I think I do. The argument serves no practical ends.

Only Hyper Grace theology says you do not have to continue to believe to continue to be saved. That's a joke all by itself. That argument does have practical implications. But I know you do not subscribe to that hideous theology. And I also notice you don't lift a finger to defeat it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Why not see? Why not address the argument?

As I said, it serves no practical, useful purpose to argue whether or not a true believer can stop believing or not. The important matter is that we must continue to believe. You believe that's a given. I don't. So what? It doesn't serve any practical purpose for the believer.

<<<Those are the reasons the Bible tells us to keep believing.>>>

What in my post are the reasons you refer to?

All of them:
That the Shepherd is good.
That he has given up a lot for us and did a lot to save us.
His love.

These are all good reasons to continue to believe and stay in the security of Christ's Ministry and Sacrifice and kingdom:

"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. " Hebrews 4:14
​

You just think that you have no choice but to continue to believe. I think that I do. So what? It doesn't matter. We both agree that we are to hold firmly to that which we profess. That's what the Bible says. That's what matters.

 

[Tong2020]

You are certainly entitled to your harmless opinion about the matter. Just as I am mine.

Yes we are.

Harmless? Perhaps if truth can be both what you and I say it is. But we know that is not the case. And if one of us is wrong then one is not the truth. And what is not truth is harmful.

Tong
R4458

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<There is being justified by faith. And there is being justified by works. >>>

Yes. However, the two aren’t the same.

Yep. That's what I've been saying.
Most think that James and Paul are talking about the same thing so they discard James out of hand and insist that faith that is alone (produces no works of righteousness) saves, too.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<He's saying Abraham was justified as having faith by what he did.>>>

It is about showing having faith and what faith he have, by his work.

By our work.
Our work shows if we have faith, or not.

So my questions for you are: 1. In whose eyes or sight is he justified by works?

In the account of Abraham, it is in the eyes of the Lord. But we know he already knew Abraham had genuine faith. Obviously, the Lord recognizing one's righteousness is for our benefit. We need to know what pleases the Lord (Ephesians 5:10, Ephesians 5:17). It's dangerous to consult man to know what works justify a man and which do not. And it's important to do that according to God's judgement of the matter, not ours. So let's not make this a 'man' thing. That's a formula for compromise.

2 Who do you say accounts his good works for righteousness which justifies him?

God is the one who justifies.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yes we are.

Harmless? Perhaps if truth can be both what you and I say it is. But we know that is not the case. And if one of us is wrong then one is not the truth. And what is not truth is harmful.

Tong
R4458

Don't stray from the point.
There are some things that it does not matter if you know the truth about them. There are some things that it does matter. For instance, it's important that you know the truth about continuing to believe in order to continue to be saved. It's not important to know if you can or can not choose to believe or disbelieve of your own volition. The important thing is that you believe. That's what counts.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That no one (of the sheep) will not be kept secured by the Good Shepherd and the Father who gave Him the sheep, from thieves and wolves, and from being separated from Him and be forever lost.

I believe this. In fact, it's the reason we are told to stay in The Son and the Father. That is the place that is secure. You can't remain secure in a place that you choose to not dwell in anymore.

I want to believe you do. However, when you say “it's the reason we are told to stay in The Son and the Father.”, it somehow gives me doubt that you do not, or that, you believe differently. And this “You can't remain secure in a place that you choose to not dwell in anymore.”

I don't know why people instantly think that believing a person can depart from God and salvation means Christ and his ministry are not secure. It means you need to stay where you are secure by continuing to believe and trust in that which is secure. That's what the Bible says to do.

And that brings me back to giving this reminder, that salvation is of God, by God, by grace. And that is why I ask what that to you means. For while you agree with that, it seems that what you say and teach runs counter to your agreement with that.

I am quite sure you will agree that there is nothing that is in man and nothing that man can do to save himself. If so, then it would not be hard for you to understand and accept that if God saved you, not only have you anything to do with that, but also that you can do nothing to undo that.

Tong
R4459

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That matters. Perhaps not to you, but it does to me. And that is not at all a meaningless thing.

It's meaningless in that it is impractical.
We both agree that one must continue to believe in order to be saved. You just think you have no choice but to believe, while I think I do. The argument serves no practical ends.

Only Hyper Grace theology says you do not have to continue to believe to continue to be saved. That's a joke all by itself. That argument does have practical implications. But I know you do not subscribe to that hideous theology. And I also notice you don't lift a finger to defeat it.

<<<It's meaningless in that it is impractical.>>>

Now I understand why it is meaningless to you.

<<<You just think you have no choice but to believe, while I think I do. >>>

Nope. I already made my choice a long time ago, to repent unto God and believe in Jesus Christ whom He sent and in the gospel that the apostles preached, or not. And I do not have to make that choice after that. After I have made that choice, all that is there for me is to do God’s will, what is His purpose that He saved me, in creating me anew in Christ Jesus.

<<<Only Hyper Grace theology says you do not have to continue to believe to continue to be saved.>>>

I don’t think that it is as you say. Besides, I find the statement “you do not have to continue to believe to continue to be saved” as flawed in itself.

Tong
R4460

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Why not see? Why not address the argument?

As I said, it serves no practical, useful purpose to argue whether or not a true believer can stop believing or not. The important matter is that we must continue to believe. You believe that's a given. I don't. So what? It doesn't serve any practical purpose for the believer

For in my view, regarding the true Christian, not that he must continue to believe to keep himself saved or remain saved, but that he certainly will be found to continue. Those created anew by God in Christ Jesus, in their new nature, will naturally continue.

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Those are the reasons the Bible tells us to keep believing.>>>

What in my post are the reasons you refer to?

All of them:
That the Shepherd is good.
That he has given up a lot for us and did a lot to save us.
His love.

These are all good reasons to continue to believe and stay in the security of Christ's Ministry and Sacrifice and kingdom:

"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. " Hebrews 4:14
​

You just think that you have no choice but to continue to believe. I think that I do. So what? It doesn't matter. We both agree that we are to hold firmly to that which we profess. That's what the Bible says. That's what matters.

I think I already addressed this.

Tong
R4461