Good that we agree on that..
What reason do they say why they insist that?
Do they point to the thief on the cross who was saved by faith apart from works?
Tong
R4462
Why do you feel it is so hard to be good?
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Do they point to the thief on the cross who was saved by faith apart from works?
Tong
R4462
And shows why faith we say we have.
In the account of Abraham, He was justified by works in the sight of man. And He was justified by faith in the sight of God.
Man does not see a person’s faith. But man can see a person’s faith by his work, which shows the faith the person have. And so, that person, by his works, is justified in the sight of man. On the other hand, It is faith that God accounts for righteousness.
Yes it is God that accounts for righteousness. And Scriptures tells us that it is Abraham’s faith, that God accounts for righteousness.
Man is shown to be righteous in the sight of man, by his works. And with that, he is justified by his works in the sight of others who see his works, without which is not.
The unbeliever, being evil, know how to give good gifts to their children, which is a work that is righteous. And people who see that, justifies such person on account of such works. But is he justified by God on account of that? Nope.
Tong
R4463
Not in any way straying from the point.
<<<There are some things that it does matter. For instance, it's important that you know the truth about continuing to believe in order to continue to be saved. >>>
If that were the truth. But that is exactly the issue between us, for in my view, that is not the case for the true Christian ~ one who truly repented and believes in God and Jesus Christ whom He sent, in his heart, and firmly believes in the gospel that the apostles preach. And the truth regarding that does matter, at least for me.
Tong
R4464
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
If it was not important to know the truth about continuing to believe in order to continue to be saved the Bible would not say it.
As I said, if it were the truth.
Bible exhortations are not statements of truths concerning God and the things of the Spirit of God. They are a form of and a good reminder to those who seem to need it and to the human who easily lose focus and easily forgets when in a difficult and aggravating situation, and perhaps could be an eye opener to those who are deceived by a false gospel, those who believed in vain.
Tong
R4470
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Before man?
From the account of Abraham...
...said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.b” Genesis 22:12
It is the Lord who is justifying Abraham by his works, not man.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I know that's your view. I'm pointing out to you that doesn't change the fact that a person must continue to believe.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I don't think you addressed the fact that the Bible tells us to keep believing because Christ's ministry is faithful and lasts forever and is greater than that of the Levites.
"14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess." Hebrews 4:14
"23Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful." Hebrews 10:23
"23Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful." Hebrews 10:23
But many in the church twist this around to say we can't stop believing, or it doesn't matter if you stop believing, and you can't lose your salvation for any reason because Christ's ministry is great. That's just not what those passages say. The particularly grievous and damning belief being that you don't have to continue to believe to be saved when Jesus comes back.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Why is a person not wanting to go to hell him trying to save himself? How does that make it so salvation is no longer of God but of man, and no longer of grace?
Do you really think that was written to tell us that God justifies the man by his work? It is not as though Abraham could say to God, that because he did like so, that he is righteous or what, and is justified by that. Nope.
For the times that Abraham sinned against God, what becomes of him? For the times that Abraham did righteous things, what becomes of him? It is not as though when scriptures said that God justified Abraham on account of faith, that it changes, depending on his works. No sir. It is by grace that Abraham was justified by God, his faith accounted by God for righteousness. And because it is by grace, by grace it is, so that the promise to Abraham or to his seed, is made secure. It is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed.
So as for me, I take it to be written, for our sake, that we may know the faith of Abraham, the faith that God accounts for righteousness. That we may know the grace of God in that. It is not work that is what is accounted for righteousness, but the faith behind the work. As such too, man cannot boast before God.
Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
If Abraham should boast, he have something to boast about, his righteous works. But he could do so only before unrighteous man, but not before God.
Tong
R4475
I did, even while you don’t see it or acknowledge it. That’s okay.
The passages you cited are words of exhortation. And such words are meaningful and applicable to either to those deceived and being deceived, those who believed in vain, those who are weak in faith such as are the immature or infants in the faith, those who are experiencing pain and suffering and are persecuted that are weakened by the flesh,… and so on. But not to the mature Christian and who are established and firm in the faith, whose faith is strong, and knows their security in Christ Jesus.
Tong
R4476
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You're making the exact mistake I'm trying to point out that the church makes regarding justification.
Paul is talking about receiving God's righteousness. IOW, being MADE righteous. And so Paul is saying that Abraham was MADE righteous by believing the promise, not MADE righteous by what he did. James, on the other hand, is saying Abraham was SHOWN to believe the promise by what he did, not made righteous by what he did.
The important take away being, the true believer is justified by, both, faith and works.
"As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone." James 2:24
The church, because they do not understand James' teaching insists James is wrong and that a believer is only justified by faith, alone. And so we have a church full of people that have no works, no change of nature. No works to validate a change of life in a genuine salvation, completely unprepared to meet Christ when he comes back, and a church that tells them they don't need those works to be saved when Jesus comes back.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I could have wrote that myself. But I know you mean real believers can't stop believing, even though you did not explicitly say that.
All believers, mature and immature, need the exhortation to keep believing. It's just that the more mature a believer is, bearing fruit in faithfulness and perseverance, is more likely to continue to believe because the word is more deeply rooted in them. In fact, I believe that a believer can arrive at the point of no return. Their mind is made up. There is nothing that can change their mind. But it's naïve, not to mention unbiblical, to say a believer is that the day he is saved. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.
Let's just do what the Bible says and exhort each other to keep believing and leave the matter of if a true believer can stop believing or not to the curious but meaningless list of things the church gets distracted by. The important thing is to heed the word of the Lord to keep believing, remaining in the Father and the Son.
"...let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father." 1 John 2:24
Let us do that. That's what we are told to do. Let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you.
I believe that No one who understand what hell is, whether he believes in hell or not, whether he is an atheist, or a Jew or a Gentile, will want to go to hell. Only a fool would want to go to hell, to the lake of fire.
And history will show that many do try, even to the best of their ability to preserve their life, and want everlasting life filled with riches, pleasures, comforts, and all that satisfies their flesh. It’s obviously trying to not go to or end up in hell.
They try. Even those who are named to be Christians, one way or another do that. As though, their ultimate salvation depends on them, on their performance of some works or on their efforts of this and that. Failing to realize, if not forgetful, that salvation is of God, by God, by grace; that they are were they are now, because of God’s will and working; that they surely will be ultimately saved by God to the fullest.
Tong
R4477
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You're really missing the point, lol.
Only a fool would not ask God to spare him from hell. Your doctrine says that the choice to ask that puts salvation into man's control and strips it of grace. Can't you see that in no way shape or form is man saving himself? Choice does not rob salvation of the element of unmerited grace.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
How does man's choice to avail himself of God's grace make it so salvation is no longer of grace?
<<<You're making the exact mistake I'm trying to point out that the church makes regarding justification.>>>
I respect your opinion. However, it does not follow that your opinion is correct. By the way, what church are you referring to?
<<<Paul is talking about receiving God's righteousness.>>>
What do you mean exactly by thay?
<<<And so Paul is saying that Abraham was MADE righteous by believing the promise, not MADE righteous by what he did. James, on the other hand, is saying Abraham was SHOWN to believe the promise by what he did, not made righteous by what he did.>>>
We have already settled this one.
<<<The important take away being, the true believer is justified by, both, faith and works.>>>
And this is your statement where our issue arises. For I contend that the justification by works and the justification by faith are true, yet in different senses. My argument being that, in the context of salvation, justification is grace. And so it is of faith, that it may be according to grace. For if it were of works, then it is not according to grace.
<<<The church, because they do not understand James' teaching insists James is wrong and that a believer is only justified by faith, alone. And so we have a church full of people that have no works, no change of nature. No works to validate a change of life in a genuine salvation, completely unprepared to meet Christ when he comes back, and a church that tells them they don't need those works to be saved when Jesus comes back.>>>
Which church? Who are “they” who does not understand James’ writing?
As I said I respect your opinion. It is so because you think that you got it and they don’t. But that does not mean you are right and they are wrong.
This is why I stated “Salvation is of God, by God, by grace through faith….”. For so I intend to remind those who read our discussion in this thread of that.
Between faith and works, scriptures speak of faith as being of grace and speak of work as being of wage.
Tong
R4478
Yes. And that’s one main difference we have. You believe you can separate yourself from Christ. I don’t. You believe you can reject Christ, at will, for whatever reason that may be, and not be saved anymore. I don’t. You believe that it is up to you, whether you remain saved or not. I don’t. You believe your remaining saved is ultimately in your hands. I don’t.
If you need the exhortation, then consider me giving you that very exhortation you talk about.
@Ferris Bueller, “let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you”. Let the gospel that the apostles preached in the beginning remain in you.
As with me, you don’t need to. I am secured in Christ and have full faith in His promise, from the time I believed Him in my heart many years ago. But thank you anyway.
Tong
R4479
Is God going to reward us for showing compassion for one another and doing good deeds? Yes.
Does it please God when we do good deeds? Yes.
Sons and daughters in the family of God. When the sons or daughters takes up the trade of the Father and work with Him and do His will...will their relationship be naturally closer? Yes.
Are good deeds the physical expression of being saved? Having the love of Christ in you? yes.
Be good and do good....the best you can. My motto.
Can you be saved and go to Heaven without good deeds? Yes you can. Because some people are not capable of doing nothing but lay in a bed. Quadriplegics. Or a man marooned on desert island by himself. So technically to the extreme, you can get to Heaven without good deeds. For everyone else, they need to read the parables of the Sheep and the Goats and the Talents.
James did say, that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And he also said that... Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
But in the practical it is an end around. It is the same analogy that Christ used when He said that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to go to Heaven. For a person that has the capability to help, those in need in whatever manner, and does not help, it shows a passive hatred for their fellow man. An opposite heart and character of that of Christ. Not of Christ.
So as the conclusion of the Sheep and Goats and talents explains....on Judgment Day the worthiness of their faith will come into question and they probably will not make it to Heaven. But technically it was not their good deeds that justified them, it was not their good deeds that "got" them to Heaven. Salvation is a free gift and except for faith in Christ their is nothing you can choose to do that can save you....it as all Christ. But faith is more than believing that God exists.
But as far as losing your salvation....you are going to have to come up with some really detailed scriptures for that one. On the other hand, the repeated warnings that Christ and the Apostles gave to Christians about not sinning and the sins that would prevent them from going to Heaven, proves the danger of Christians going to Hell. These warning are for Christians...in fact it would probably be hard to find a scripture where the Apostles are talking to non-Christians about not sinning. What would be the point?
Does it please God when we do good deeds? Yes.
Sons and daughters in the family of God. When the sons or daughters takes up the trade of the Father and work with Him and do His will...will their relationship be naturally closer? Yes.
Are good deeds the physical expression of being saved? Having the love of Christ in you? yes.
Be good and do good....the best you can. My motto.
Can you be saved and go to Heaven without good deeds? Yes you can. Because some people are not capable of doing nothing but lay in a bed. Quadriplegics. Or a man marooned on desert island by himself. So technically to the extreme, you can get to Heaven without good deeds. For everyone else, they need to read the parables of the Sheep and the Goats and the Talents.
James did say, that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And he also said that... Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
But in the practical it is an end around. It is the same analogy that Christ used when He said that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to go to Heaven. For a person that has the capability to help, those in need in whatever manner, and does not help, it shows a passive hatred for their fellow man. An opposite heart and character of that of Christ. Not of Christ.
So as the conclusion of the Sheep and Goats and talents explains....on Judgment Day the worthiness of their faith will come into question and they probably will not make it to Heaven. But technically it was not their good deeds that justified them, it was not their good deeds that "got" them to Heaven. Salvation is a free gift and except for faith in Christ their is nothing you can choose to do that can save you....it as all Christ. But faith is more than believing that God exists.
But as far as losing your salvation....you are going to have to come up with some really detailed scriptures for that one. On the other hand, the repeated warnings that Christ and the Apostles gave to Christians about not sinning and the sins that would prevent them from going to Heaven, proves the danger of Christians going to Hell. These warning are for Christians...in fact it would probably be hard to find a scripture where the Apostles are talking to non-Christians about not sinning. What would be the point?
Not exactly!
Salvation is because of our choice to believe in Christ...to follow Christ....our faith in Christ.
Grace is what is afforded to us because of our choice to have faith in Christ.
We are not going to be saved unless we choose that.
Salvation comes from Christ....a free gift you do not get unless you have faith.
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