I have a question that remains unanswered:

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David in NJ

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No...I am saying that Jesus was born to be the Messiah, but he needed to grow up first. As an infant he needed education and training, just like any other son of devout Jewish parents. His superior intellect would have put him in the genius category as the teachers at the Temple marveled as his wisdom for such a youngster, only 12 years old.

Luke 2:46-50...
"Well, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers and listening to them and asking them questions. 47 But all those listening to him were in constant amazement at his understanding and his answers."
So it is obvious that God had guided this young man on his path and he was well versed in the word of God, thanks to his devoted parents.
"And the young child continued growing and getting strong, being filled with wisdom, and God’s favor continued upon him." (Luke 2:40)

But growing up as a human, there was still much that he did not know about his past life....and details also about what was ahead of him. That was revealed in God's due time.

On presenting himself for baptism (which was not for forgiveness of sins or for repentance over transgressions against the Law of Moses) the account in Matthew 3:16-17 tells us that...
"After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”
So only at his baptism did Jesus become the "Christ"; the Greek word Khri·stosʹ, which is equivalent to the Hebrew word translated “Messiah,” or “Anointed One.” So, only then was the Holy Spirit operative on him as part of his anointing. Just like the disciples at Pentecost received their anointing with Holy Spirit to become "sons of God" by adoption.
Galatians 4:1-5...
"Now I say that as long as the heir is a young child, he is no different from a slave, although he is the lord of all things, 2 but he is under supervisors and stewards until the day set ahead of time by his father. 3 Likewise, we too, when we were children, were enslaved by the elementary things of the world. 4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son, who was born of a woman and who was under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, so that we might receive the adoption as sons."


There is not a single mention of Jesus being able to perform miracles until after his baptism. It was one of the reasons why his siblings did not yet believe in him...he was just their older brother.

The heavens opened up, allowing Jesus to see the holy Spirit in the shape of a dove descend upon him....and then hearing his Father's voice of approval. But as to the road ahead (and in all likelihood, what Jesus had left behind regarding his former position in heaven)....the magnitude of this required 40 days in the wilderness to come to terms with it all, communing with his Father about all those details and also that which was to come.



He was born for this role....there was no other reason for his coming into the world. So the promised Savior was born, the future "King of the Jews"...but would not begin to fulfill his role as Messiah until the age of 30, when he presented himself for baptism.....and his Kingship was yet hundreds of decades into the future.


Are you under the impression that humans were created sinful? Were Adam or his wife "sinful" before their disobedience?
Did God create flawed human beings who could not help but sin, and then punish them for doing so?

Why did the devil tempt Jesus? He knew that he was the son of God, and that God would protect him to the end.

Consider.....didn't the devil already have two notches on his belt? Two sinless humans who were created perfect, but who, out of their own free will acted in direct contravention to God's explicit command......only then did they become "sinners"....and they passed that sin onto all their offspring. (Romans 5:12)
To entice Jesus from his course by challenging him to abuse his free will, could have messed everything up. But Jesus showed that the first humans could have obeyed one simple command and told the devil to "go away" as Jesus had done. (Matthew 4:1-11) Thus proving that giving his children free will, was not a mistake.

The redeemer could not have been a sinful son of Adam or else he could not have paid the required price for freeing mankind from the perpetual sentence of sin and death. He had to be sinless like Adam was....."a life for a life". (Exodus 21:23-25) Equivalency is what God's Law demanded.
1 Corinthians 15:45...
"So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."


I agree....how did you get the impression that I believe differently. The Holy Spirit has always been dispensed in due measure....not too much, not too little. Precisely measured out as to need.


Unclear questions often gain unclear answers....
I would ask you to clarify the term "agency of the Spirit" for I have no idea what that means?

You said some beautiful things here.
But this one is off and needs some fixing.
"So only at his baptism did Jesus become the "Christ"; the Greek word Khri·stosʹ, which is equivalent to the Hebrew word translated “Messiah,” or “Anointed One.” So, only then was the Holy Spirit operative on him as part of his anointing. Just like the disciples at Pentecost received their anointing with Holy Spirit to become "sons of God" by adoption."
Galatians 4:1-5...

The Holy Spirit was in Him before birth and after birth - Jesus said to John why He was allowing John to baptize Him and why we were permitted to see the Spirit descend upon Him like a Dove.

Remember - a page of bible verses does not prove anything - just stay on the exact subject - nothing more/less.

But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. Matthew 5:37
 

Robert Gwin

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Abba The Father, but this is what you got to understand the Lord God can be and is in multiple places at one time.

The Lord is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, when Mary gave birth to Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit, the power of the Father in Heaven, she gave birth to God in human form, Jesus Christ never sinned, in fact the disciples worshipped Jesus Christ as God.

Now coming back to my statement "God can be and is in multiple places at one time", while God was walking on earth as Jesus Christ, God was also sitting in the throne of Heaven as the Father in Heaven.

Let's look at this for an example.

Does God abandon one believer for another? No He is with us all. So He can and is in multiple places at one time.

We disagree Josh.
 

Robert Gwin

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Oh, this is easy - Elohim(God) told us His Name in His Word.

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites,
‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob—has sent me to you.’
This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

PLEASE do not miss out on the part that says: "This is My Name FOREVER - in EVERY generation."

There are three numbers for you to observe, they are 1,3,7 - these three numbers describe Who God is.

Since you didn't give His name, what is His name that He gave that would be His name forever?
 

Robert Gwin

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He has no proper name but only titles. The Incarnate Lord has a proper name because He was Incarnate in time. A proper name belongs to things created. "Father" or "God" or "Lord" or to the Third Person "Holy Spirit" are all titles not proper names derived from the good deeds and functions of Deity, and "Yahweh" is self-evidently a title for it means "He Who Is" or such, which is something which extends throughout the whole eternal Trinity, they all "Are."

God's Nature (and a name calls what a thing is as demonstrated by the Scripture) is beyond comprehension and so logically even containment or declaration by ours words, no proper name can be given.

What name did He Himself select to be His name? Yes there are many titles, but God personally selected His own name and it is the most used name in the Bible.
 

Robert Gwin

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KJV Exodus 34:5-9
5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.
9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

Who was this that Moses bowed down and worshipped?

KJV 1 Corinthians 10:4-5
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

LORD is not His name sir, your selected version of the Bible replaced His name with that, would you like to know what His name is?
 

Abaxvahl

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What name did He Himself select to be His name? Yes there are many titles, but God personally selected His own name and it is the most used name in the Bible.

If you are referring to Exodus He said "I am who I am" or "I will be who I will be" is His Name (with reference to self-existence and His relationship to Israel). But the reason I called it a title is because if I said to you my name was "I will be a founder of a nation" or "I exist" would you call that a name or something else? It's not really a proper name at all. One is something I do and the other is a statement about my ontological status. It's not like "Abraham" or "David" or "Moses" or "Joshua" (Jesus) which is a name of a different character which is not like "I exist" or "I will be a founder of a nation." This is why I say Yahweh is an appellation of the Godhead/Divinity/Deity as a whole.
 
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David in NJ

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Abba The Father, but this is what you got to understand the Lord God can be and is in multiple places at one time.

The Lord is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, when Mary gave birth to Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit, the power of the Father in Heaven, she gave birth to God in human form, Jesus Christ never sinned, in fact the disciples worshipped Jesus Christ as God.

Now coming back to my statement "God can be and is in multiple places at one time", while God was walking on earth as Jesus Christ, God was also sitting in the throne of Heaven as the Father in Heaven.

Let's look at this for an example.

Does God abandon one believer for another? No He is with us all. So He can and is in multiple places at one time.

Perfect Josho -
"No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

Thus our LORD's PERFECT Prayer - John 17
 

David in NJ

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The Bible stated it, which I put in print, and I believe it. We do not teach the Bible contradicts itself, therefore it has to be an understanding error for the contradiction, not a Bible error.

Scripture cannot lie - the error is in man - not in God - HE knows what HE knows when HE speaks
 

David in NJ

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If you are referring to Exodus He said "I am who I am" or "I will be who I will be" is His Name (with reference to self-existence and His relationship to Israel). But the reason I called it a title is because if I said to you my name was "I will be a founder of a nation" or "I exist" would you call that a name or something else? It's not really a proper name at all. One is something I do and the other is a statement about my ontological status. It's not like "Abraham" or "David" or "Moses" or "Joshua" (Jesus) which is a name of a different character which is not like "I exist" or "I will be a founder of a nation." This is why I say Yahweh is an appellation of the Godhead/Divinity/Deity as a whole.

What's an 'appellation' ???
Are you referring to the Appalachian Mountains or a 'Nation made of Apples' or an 'App' for a smartphone called Ellation?
 

BarneyFife

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No...I am saying that Jesus was born to be the Messiah, but he needed to grow up first. As an infant he needed education and training, just like any other son of devout Jewish parents. His superior intellect would have put him in the genius category as the teachers at the Temple marveled as his wisdom for such a youngster, only 12 years old.

Luke 2:46-50...
"Well, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers and listening to them and asking them questions. 47 But all those listening to him were in constant amazement at his understanding and his answers."
So it is obvious that God had guided this young man on his path and he was well versed in the word of God, thanks to his devoted parents.
"And the young child continued growing and getting strong, being filled with wisdom, and God’s favor continued upon him." (Luke 2:40)

But growing up as a human, there was still much that he did not know about his past life....and details also about what was ahead of him. That was revealed in God's due time.

On presenting himself for baptism (which was not for forgiveness of sins or for repentance over transgressions against the Law of Moses) the account in Matthew 3:16-17 tells us that...
"After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”
So only at his baptism did Jesus become the "Christ"; the Greek word Khri·stosʹ, which is equivalent to the Hebrew word translated “Messiah,” or “Anointed One.” So, only then was the Holy Spirit operative on him as part of his anointing. Just like the disciples at Pentecost received their anointing with Holy Spirit to become "sons of God" by adoption.
Galatians 4:1-5...
"Now I say that as long as the heir is a young child, he is no different from a slave, although he is the lord of all things, 2 but he is under supervisors and stewards until the day set ahead of time by his father. 3 Likewise, we too, when we were children, were enslaved by the elementary things of the world. 4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son, who was born of a woman and who was under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, so that we might receive the adoption as sons."


There is not a single mention of Jesus being able to perform miracles until after his baptism. It was one of the reasons why his siblings did not yet believe in him...he was just their older brother.

The heavens opened up, allowing Jesus to see the holy Spirit in the shape of a dove descend upon him....and then hearing his Father's voice of approval. But as to the road ahead (and in all likelihood, what Jesus had left behind regarding his former position in heaven)....the magnitude of this required 40 days in the wilderness to come to terms with it all, communing with his Father about all those details and also that which was to come.
He was born for this role....there was no other reason for his coming into the world. So the promised Savior was born, the future "King of the Jews"...but would not begin to fulfill his role as Messiah until the age of 30, when he presented himself for baptism.....and his Kingship was yet hundreds of decades into the future.

Not one thing here disproves the simple statement of angels in Luke 2:11 that says:
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Not the absence of dove-shapes, miracles or any other tokens denies the titles given to Him at birth (and actually precedes that, even).

And He did not "release by purchase those under law" until He was sacrificed on Golgotha.

I see Luke 2:11 as conclusive as you would Deuteronomy 6:4. That should be clear enough.

Are you under the impression that humans were created sinful? Were Adam or his wife "sinful" before their disobedience?
Did God create flawed human beings who could not help but sin, and then punish them for doing so?

Why did the devil tempt Jesus? He knew that he was the son of God, and that God would protect him to the end.

Consider.....didn't the devil already have two notches on his belt? Two sinless humans who were created perfect, but who, out of their own free will acted in direct contravention to God's explicit command......only then did they become "sinners"....and they passed that sin onto all their offspring. (Romans 5:12)
To entice Jesus from his course by challenging him to abuse his free will, could have messed everything up. But Jesus showed that the first humans could have obeyed one simple command and told the devil to "go away" as Jesus had done. (Matthew 4:1-11) Thus proving that giving his children free will, was not a mistake.

The redeemer could not have been a sinful son of Adam or else he could not have paid the required price for freeing mankind from the perpetual sentence of sin and death. He had to be sinless like Adam was....."a life for a life". (Exodus 21:23-25) Equivalency is what God's Law demanded.
1 Corinthians 15:45...
"So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
I'm not getting off on a Christology and nature of man tangent. Christ needed the Holy Spirit to lead a sinless life. Hebrews 4:15
I agree....how did you get the impression that I believe differently. The Holy Spirit has always been dispensed in due measure....not too much, not too little. Precisely measured out as to need.
Fair enough all right. Curious--why do you capitalize Holy Spirit as a proper noun?
Unclear questions often gain unclear answers....
I didn't pose a question in what you quoted. Nice jab, though. ;)
I would ask you to clarify the term "agency of the Spirit" for I have no idea what that means?
And I would answer you:

agency
ā′jən-sē
noun
  1. The condition of being in action; operation.
  2. The means or mode of acting; instrumentality.
And, finally, I'm not sure why we're contending over this non-essential. :)
 
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BarneyFife

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The Bible stated it, which I put in print, and I believe it. We do not teach the Bible contradicts itself, therefore it has to be an understanding error for the contradiction, not a Bible error.
A literal, plain reading of Acts 2:33 does not dictate that it was impossible for Christ to have had the Holy Spirit before that time (or His ascension). It is not even an apparent (non-literal) contradiction.
 

Aunty Jane

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Perfect Josho -
"No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

That is a very inaccurate translation you are using.....because if you look at John 1:18 in a Greek Interlinear, it literally reads...

"θεὸν God οὐδεὶς no one ἑώρακεν has seen πώποτε· at any time; μονογενὴς only-begotten θεὸς godthe (one) ὢν being εἰς into τὸν the κόλπον bosom τοῦ of the πατρὸς Father ἐκεῖνος that (one) ἐξηγήσατο. explained."

The opening words of that verse prove that Jesus was not God....."No one has seen God at any time"...thousands saw Jesus.
It doesn't say "no one has seen the Father" but says that 'no one has ever seen God' and then mentions that "the only begotten god" is "in the bosom of the Father."....so your trinity is nonsense. One part of God is in a favored position with himself?
The "only begotten god" who was "in the bosom of the Father" (a position of favor) "explained him".

The Greek "theos" translated "god", applies to anyone who is considered to be of divine origin or who has divine authority.....it is not an exclusive term for the God of the Bible. Satan is also called "theos"...Jesus is called "theos" and even human judges are called "gods" by God himself. (John 10:31-36)

There is no mention of the word "son" in John 1:18 as you have qu9oted above.
If John 1:18 speaks of the "only begotten Son" (monogenes theos) then they should also translate "Son" in John 1:1.
Making John 1:1 say... "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was the Son".

You have to ignore a lot of scripture to push a trinity.
 
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Aunty Jane

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I think the name Robert is looking for in replies is "Jehovah".

Jehovah
and LORD God are the same God.
No, I'm afraid that isn't true. The Jews substituted God's title for his personal name....a name that he said was to be "mentioned in every generation" That would be the same as not calling you Josho, but addressing you as "the bloke".
Not your name is it?

Imagine a well known author who wrote the world's number one best seller, and they left his name off the cover and the title page. Then in every book review they just called him "The Author".....he would be a bit cheesed off I imagine.....
palm
 

Cristo Rei

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What i never understood is this...
If Jesus is God then who was he speaking to on those occasions where he was talking to God?
In particular the garden of Gethsemane. How and why would God pray to Himself?
 

Abaxvahl

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What i never understood is this...
If Jesus is God then who was he speaking to on those occasions where he was talking to God?
In particular the garden of Gethsemane. How and why would God pray to Himself?

He didn't. The Son isn't the same Person as the Father. He prayed to the Father. Jesus is God because He is the natural Son of God by generation (which is not creation), and natural fathers always generate persons who have the same nature as themselves.
 

Wrangler

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What i never understood is this...
If Jesus is God then who was he speaking to on those occasions where he was talking to God?
In particular the garden of Gethsemane. How and why would God pray to Himself?

@Aunty Jane said 'You have to ignore a lot of scripture to push a trinity.' One must ignore more than all of Scripture. Trinitarianism must escape the confines of
Definition
Logic
Language Usage


To do this, they invoke mysticism and dualism. To questions you ask the dualism is to invent a converse not found in Scripture. The 'Son of God' become 'God the Son,' who talks to 'God the Father' - AS IF there is any other God but what Scripture explicitly says 'God the Father' who are the same 'being' but different 'persons.'

I especially like how trinitarians parse synonyms like 'being' and 'person.' Another example is how trinitarians deny that Jesus ever died on the cross! While they have no problem admitting Jesus is fully man, they assert he is ALSO fully God. How do they rationalize that Jesus raised himself from the dead? By asserting he was only physically dead. Then, they invent a whole new class of undead for the dead.

Trinitarianism undermines the heart of the Good News! The heart of the Good News is that Jesus is a man who died just like all men do and his resurrection serves as the realization of God's promise. Jesus had to fully die for the Good News to be real for all of us.


He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31 (VOICE)
 
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Robert Gwin

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If you are referring to Exodus He said "I am who I am" or "I will be who I will be" is His Name (with reference to self-existence and His relationship to Israel). But the reason I called it a title is because if I said to you my name was "I will be a founder of a nation" or "I exist" would you call that a name or something else? It's not really a proper name at all. One is something I do and the other is a statement about my ontological status. It's not like "Abraham" or "David" or "Moses" or "Joshua" (Jesus) which is a name of a different character which is not like "I exist" or "I will be a founder of a nation." This is why I say Yahweh is an appellation of the Godhead/Divinity/Deity as a whole.

Yes God did reveal His name, the most recorded name in the Bible Abax, but you stopped Him short, what name did He actually give to Moses that would be His name forever?