Why do you feel it is so hard to be good?

[Tong2020]

You're really missing the point, lol.
Only a fool would not ask God to spare him from hell. Your doctrine says that the choice to ask that puts salvation into man's control and strips it of grace. Can't you see that in no way shape or form is man saving himself? Choice does not rob salvation of the element of unmerited grace.

The fallen man, who is said to be dead, could not do anything, not even could ask God whom he, in most cases than not, even do not know or care about to know.

<<<Your doctrine says that the choice to ask that puts salvation into man's control and strips it of grace.>>>

Had not said anything even close to that.

<<<Choice does not rob salvation of the element of unmerited grace.>>>

As pertains to salvation, the choice is God’s, not yours or mine. More so, the work is God’s not yours or mine. That is what I am repeatedly reminding you of.

Tong
R4480

 

[Tong2020]

How does man's choice to avail himself of God's grace make it so salvation is no longer of grace?

If at all, that choice isn’t made every day. One doesn’t get to choose to repent unto God and believe in Jesus Christ, and in the gospel that the apostles preached, every waking day, or do you think otherwise? That you have to choose to do that everyday necessitates that you have in everyday repented from God and from believing Christ. That’s madness, I would say. Foolish, right?

Tong
R4481

 

[Tong2020]

Not exactly!
Salvation is because of our choice to believe in Christ...to follow Christ....our faith in Christ.
Grace is what is afforded to us because of our choice to have faith in Christ.

We are not going to be saved unless we choose that.

Salvation comes from Christ....a free gift you do not get unless you have faith.

Salvation is God’s choice, not man’s.

Tong
R4482

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<You're making the exact mistake I'm trying to point out that the church makes regarding justification.>>>

I respect your opinion. However, it does not follow that your opinion is correct. By the way, what church are you referring to?

Those in the church that think you don't have to have any works to be saved when Jesus comes back.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<Paul is talking about receiving God's righteousness.>>>

What do you mean exactly by thay?

Romans 4 is about receiving God's righteousness as opposed to the righteousness that comes by works of the law.
James is talking about neither of these. James is talking about being recognized as being righteous by works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<And so Paul is saying that Abraham was MADE righteous by believing the promise, not MADE righteous by what he did. James, on the other hand, is saying Abraham was SHOWN to believe the promise by what he did, not made righteous by what he did.>>>

We have already settled this one.

You say that, but you keep contending with what I'm saying.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<The important take away being, the true believer is justified by, both, faith and works.>>>

And this is your statement where our issue arises. For I contend that the justification by works and the justification by faith are true, yet in different senses.

I've been saying this all along.
You say we have already settled this, then you turn right around and contend with what I'm saying.
What now makes you think I'm saying Paul's justification by faith and James' justification by works are both about what makes a man righteous?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

My argument being that, in the context of salvation, justification is grace. And so it is of faith, that it may be according to grace. For if it were of works, then it is not according to grace.

Yes, that's Paul's argument. We know that. Everyone knows that.
The point we are discussing here is James is NOT contradicting Paul by saying a man must be justified by works. His justification by works does not mean the same thing as Paul's justification by works. That's what the church does not get. And so they are sure they do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back.

 

[Grailhunter]

Salvation is God’s choice, not man’s.

Tong
R4482

Free-will!
God chose to provide salvation.
Man's choice to believe in it.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<You're making the exact mistake I'm trying to point out that the church makes regarding justification.>>>

I respect your opinion. However, it does not follow that your opinion is correct. By the way, what church are you referring to?

Those in the church that think you don't have to have any works to be saved when Jesus comes back.

And on the other hand you think you have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back, right? Or else you will not be saved, right?

So, the others believe that they will be saved by faith and not by their works. And you on the other hand believe that you will be saved by faith and by your works.

Tong
R4486

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Paul is talking about receiving God's righteousness.>>>

What do you mean exactly by thay?

Romans 4 is about receiving God's righteousness as opposed to the righteousness that comes by works of the law.
James is talking about neither of these. James is talking about being recognized as being righteous by works.

What I mean to ask is what you exactly mean by “receiving God’s righteousness”.

Tong
R4487

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<And so Paul is saying that Abraham was MADE righteous by believing the promise, not MADE righteous by what he did. James, on the other hand, is saying Abraham was SHOWN to believe the promise by what he did, not made righteous by what he did.>>>

We have already settled this one.

You say that, but you keep contending with what I'm saying.

I don’t.

Tong
R4488

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, that's Paul's argument. We know that. Everyone knows that.
The point we are discussing here is James is NOT contradicting Paul by saying a man must be justified by works. His justification by works does not mean the same thing as Paul's justification by works. That's what the church does not get. And so they are sure they do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back.

We have people reading this that need to understand. And you are right, "the church" ....a lot of people do not understand. Christianity has in a lot of ways, has become a "don't doers" religion because of the mix up between works of the Law and good deeds. A lot Christians understand "righteousness" as what you don't do...the sins that you don't do. But what you are saying can confuse people. Justification is linked to the Grace of Christ. After we believe and are saved...we cannot do "a do" that has anything to do with salvation.

But we can do things that can send us to Hell, that is why the Apostles spent so much time warning Christians about sin and listed the sins that can send Christians to Hell. Good deeds are a reflection of Christ in us. How can we say we understand Christ when He said to love one another, if we do not help one another.....it is a very important point but it can be confusing by how you are wording it. Christians can go to Hell because of their sins, the Apostles kept warning about that.

Christ made it clear that if you do not love one another, if you do not have compassion for one another, and if you do not help one another, you do not know Him and He does not know you. That is what sends you to Hell and that is how Christ worded it...He does not know you. James used the word justification and that is unfortunate. We cannot be good enough to be saved by our own actions. But obedience is required. Why do you call me Lord Lord and not do what I say.... You cannot call Him Lord, if you do not do what He says. And He says to love one another. Be good and do good the best you can....and that is all He is asking.

Christianity is not a club you sign up for and go on about your business doing what you want. As a followers of Christ we obey what He says. If we were not sincere...He knows that...and we were not saved to begin with...we cannot play Christ for a fool...He knows our heart. We cannot claim Grace if we were not sincere and that is the contingency for forgiveness. If we had the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains....but as humans our strength of faith is at the human level and that is all that Christ asks. But faith means a commitment, an honest intent. So the point is good deeds are not an option. If you truly know Christ, you will do good deeds.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<The important take away being, the true believer is justified by, both, faith and works.>>>

And this is your statement where our issue arises. For I contend that the justification by works and the justification by faith are true, yet in different senses.

I've been saying this all along.
You say we have already settled this, then you turn right around and contend with what I'm saying.
What now makes you think I'm saying Paul's justification by faith and James' justification by works are both about what makes a man righteous?

James was saying that man is justified by his works, in the sense that his works shows that he have faith. He is referring to works that comes forth or are a product of his faith in God. That he is shown to have faith in God by his work. Paul was saying that man is justified by faith in God, in the sense that faith is that which God accounts for righteousness.

Tong
R4489

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
My argument being that, in the context of salvation, justification is grace. And so it is of faith, that it may be according to grace. For if it were of works, then it is not according to grace.

Yes, that's Paul's argument. We know that. Everyone knows that.
The point we are discussing here is James is NOT contradicting Paul by saying a man must be justified by works. His justification by works does not mean the same thing as Paul's justification by works. That's what the church does not get. And so they are sure they do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back.

<<<Yes, that's Paul's argument. We know that. Everyone knows that.>>>

If you know that of Paul’s argument, then why so you seem to be arguing against it? Don’t you agree with him?

<<<The point we are discussing here is James is NOT contradicting Paul by saying a man must be justified by works.>>>

Yes James is not. For James was saying a different thing than what Paul was saying. But I will have to say, James was not saying that a man must be justified by works, but that a man of faith is justified by his works, for his works shows his faith in God.

<<<His justification by works does not mean the same thing as Paul's justification by works.>>>

Perhaps not in Paul’s epistle to the church in Galatia. But it is, in his epistle to the Christians in Rome.

Tong
R4490

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Salvation is God’s choice, not man’s.

Free-will!
God chose to provide salvation.
Man's choice to believe in it.

Well, we differ then. You believe your salvation is of your free will and according to the counsel of your will ~ your choosing. I on the other hand believe my salvation is of God’s free and sovereign will and according to the counsel of his will ~ His choosing.

Tong
R4491

 

[Tong2020]

Christians can go to Hell because of their sins, the Apostles kept warning about that.

True for nominal Christians, and not true for the true Christians. For Christ Jesus, through His death, destroyed him who had the power of death. Do you believe that? Now concerning the true Christians, who through fear of death, were all their lifetime subject to bondage, with that, Christ had effectively released them from that. Death no longer reign over them. And if not, how do you suppose sin can send them to hell, that is, the second death?

One may ask, does it mean the true Christians are free to sin? Nope. Paul said that they have been set free from sin, and have became slaves of righteousness. And so, they are free to do righteousness, but not free to sin. And if and when they fall into sin, they will be disciplined by God.

If you truly know Christ, you will do good deeds.

True.

For the true Christians hates sin and love righteousness. For the true Christian does not want to offend God but want to please him every time.

Tong
R4492

 

[marks]

Love it! I have said the exact same thing before, but not as plain as tou put it.

Another thing people should realize is that James and his followers (being Jews) were still zealous for and kept the Law. Paul disagreed with that, even for Jews. He would suffer it, but he did not command it.

It's what got Paul into trouble. He wanted to please the Jerusalem Christians who kept the Law, and that's what ran him afoul of the Jewish leaders. So he was arrested, and there is no fruit to his account reported for another couple of years, until he left for Rome.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You believe you can reject Christ, at will, for whatever reason that may be, and not be saved anymore. I don’t. You believe that it is up to you, whether you remain saved or not. I don’t. You believe your remaining saved is ultimately in your hands. I don’t.

You resist that because you think that makes salvation by works, not grace. But no where in the Bible does it say believing in Christ is a work of self righteous merit. In fact, it says believing in Christ in order to be saved is exactly and diametrically opposed to being saved on the merit of self righteous work.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you need the exhortation, then consider me giving you that very exhortation you talk about.

@Ferris Bueller, “let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you”. Let the gospel that the apostles preached in the beginning remain in you.

You left off the part that says the Son and the Father remain in you if the word remains in you (1 John 2:24). They have to be in you for them to remain in you. He is speaking to people who have Christ and the Father in them.

If you want, you can believe that the real believer automatically will continue to believe. Makes no difference because that doesn't change the fact that the word must remain in a person for the Father and the Son to remain in them. The important matter here is that you continue to believe.