I have a question that remains unanswered:

[Wrangler]

apart from him not even one thing came into existence. (NWT)

Meaning he came into existence. The Bible says Jesus is the first born of all creation. John 3:16 tells us Jesus was made. Begotten means made, created. Look it up.

 

[BarneyFife]

Not one single verse identifies Jesus as the LORD God incarnate.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Wrangler]

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Notice this verse does not even mention Jesus?

The idea that Jesus is called Father has no basis in Scripture. All the Gospels are explicit. Jesus is the Son of God. Sons are not their father’s.

 

[BarneyFife]

Meaning he came into existence.

Impossible. Jesus created all things that came into existence.
...apart from him not even one thing came into existence. (NWT)

.

In which column does Jesus belong?​

Note: It's not an essay question. Answer or don't answer, your choice.​

 

[BarneyFife]

Notice this verse does not even mention Jesus?

Sure, it does, and you know it.

 

[BarneyFife]

The idea that Jesus is called Father has no basis in Scripture.

Sure, it does.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[BarneyFife]

At this point, we're simply indulging ourselves in abject disagreement.

 

[keithr]

A1) The word for sending. "The Father sends" and "I send."

The same Greek word (pempo) is in both cases translated as send. I don't understand why you said "same word is used, it does not say pour forth there". In the John verses that I quoted we have Jesus saying that God will send His Holy Spirit in Jesus' name, and that Jesus will send God's Holy Spirit, which is from the Father. Then when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples Peter explained that this was the fulfilment of God's promise to "pour out" His spirit. Are you saying that you don't believe Peter's explanation that the disciples speaking in tongues was God fulfulling Hs promise as recorded in Joel 2:28, or that Jesus saying that he would send God's Spirit was not referring to the same thing?

A2) He died after giving up His own life. "Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!' And having said this he breathed his last." He announced what He was doing and then laid down His own life for He decided when to die.

In which case, as I previously said, Jesus saying "My God, why have you forsaken me" was referring to God removing his Holy Spirit from Jesus, and it could not have been, as you suggested, Jesus' soul, "the breath of life", leaving his body.

A3) I was not talking about that saying. As you note, the "into your hands" came last.

I was the one who said that what Jesus said in Matthew 27:46 was his reaction to God removing His Spirit from Jesus. You said it wasn't. There was no mention of Jesus' last words before he died at that point. You are getting confused!

A4) From Psalm 30 (31 in Hebrew): "Into thy hands I commend my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O Lord, the God of truth." I was speaking of this citation.

Boy, you are confusing! What you originally wrote was:

Then you say that God the Father withdrew the Holy Spirit from Jesus, but you do not show why this is not merely the breath of life, the soul, leaving Jesus body and not the Holy Spirit leaving His soul, for it says as a definite point in Ecclesiastes that "and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it." He is quoting from Psalm 30.​

There had been no mention at that point of Luke 23:46 (“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!"), which is a quote from Psalm 31, not 30. The only words of Jesus that I quoted was Matthew 27:46 ("why have you forsaken me?").

A5) Prove and define separation. Jesus existed at this time so evidently was not "separated" from God, for nothing which is truly apart from God can exist as God is the cause of existence. He only says "forsaken." Now here He does quote Psalm 21 (22 in Hebrew), so I will look at this Psalm to see what condition He means by saying "forsaken" in this condition:

The Greek word that is translated as forsaken (egkataleipo) means to abandon, or to leave behind. The Hebrew word translated forsaken in Psalm 22 is azab, which means to leave, depart from, leave behind, abandon. By removing His Spirit, God was abandoning and leaving Jesus.

1 - "the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation."

What are you translation are you quoting from? I don't see that in Psalm 22:1. It should be more like "Why are you so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?".

Anyway... prove that He died of a broken heart from the text.

That is clearly not expressed in the text of Matthew 27:46. Quoting from an old article:

It was now that our Lord uttered those agonizing words, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me!" He had borne, with wonderful fortitude, the contradictions of sinners against himself, and Peter's denial, and the fact that all of his disciples fled from him, and that his last hours were spent amid the jeers of his enemies; but when the moment came that the Father's fellowship of spirit was withdrawn from him, that was more than he could bear, and it is claimed that he died of a literally broken heart, and that this was evidenced by the fact that both blood and water proceeded from the spear-wound inflicted shortly after his death.​

 

[Robert Gwin]

@Wrangler @Aunty Jane @Robert Gwin
.

In which column does Jesus belong?​

Note: It's not an essay question. Answer or don't answer, your choice.

With the exception of himself, everything was created through Jesus sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

GOD and the WORD and the HOLY SPIRIT were BEFORE the Creation of ALL things.

In the beginning God = In the beginning was the WORD

ALL things created by the WORD and nothing that was created was created without HIM/the WORD.

With the exception of himself sir

 

[Robert Gwin]

The word for God is Elohim which is plural. There were, and are, THREE Persons of One(Echad) Elohim(God).

The Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord(Jehovah) our God(Elohenu), the Lord is one(echad) you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength

Elohim and Elohenu are plural and Echad (One)
Echad is the Hebrew word for one, but more precisely it means a single entity but made up of more than one part.

Elohim(God) communicated to us in a way we could understand - Genesis

Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness = 3 Times = Us + Our + Our

The Lord continued revealing Himself as Elohim by bringing forth Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Abrahma is the father of his only son Isaac (thru Sarah) and from Isaac came Jacob.

These three men, their lives, tell the story of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

Please read about these three men in Genesis and before, during and after - Pray for understanding in Name that is above all names = the Lord Jesus Christ.

Plurality in the Bible does not always indicate individuals, nor does it ever with the word Elohim, the plurality of that word always refers to majesty sir.

 

[David in NJ]

The same Greek word (pempo) is in both cases translated as send. I don't understand why you said "same word is used, it does not say pour forth there". In the John verses that I quote we have Jesus saying that God will send His Holy Spirit in Jesus' name, and that Jesus will send God's Holy Spirit, which is from the Father. Then when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples Peter explained that this was the fulfilment of God's promise to "pour out" His spirit. Are you saying that you don't believe Peter's explanation that the disciples speaking in tongues was God fulfulling Hs promise as recorded in Joel 2:28, or that Jesus saying that he would send God's Spirit was not referring to the same thing?


In which case, as I previously said, Jesus saying "My God, why have you forsaken me" was referring to God removing his Holy Spirit from Jesus, and it could not have been, as you suggested, Jesus' soul, "the breath of life", leaving his body.


I was the one who said that what Jesus said in Matthew 27:46 was his reaction to God removing His Spirit from Jesus. You said it wasn't. There was no mention of Jesus' last words before he died at that point. You are getting confused!


Boy, you are confusing! What you originally wrote was:

Then you say that God the Father withdrew the Holy Spirit from Jesus, but you do not show why this is not merely the breath of life, the soul, leaving Jesus body and not the Holy Spirit leaving His soul, for it says as a definite point in Ecclesiastes that "and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it." He is quoting from Psalm 30.​

There had been no mention at that point of Luke 23:46 (“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!"), which is a quote from Psalm 31, not 30. The only words of Jesus that I quoted was Matthew 27:46 ("why have you forsaken me?").


The Greek word that is translated as forsaken (egkataleipo) means to abandon, or to leave behind. The Hebrew word translated forsaken in Psalm 22 is azab, which means to leave, depart from, leave behind, abandon. By removing His Spirit, God was abandoning and leaving Jesus.


What are you translation are you quoting from? I don't see that in Psalm 22:1. It should be more like "Why are you so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?".


That is clearly not expressed in the text of Matthew 27:46. Quoting from an old article:

It was now that our Lord uttered those agonizing words, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me!" He had borne, with wonderful fortitude, the contradictions of sinners against himself, and Peter's denial, and the fact that all of his disciples fled from him, and that his last hours were spent amid the jeers of his enemies; but when the moment came that the Father's fellowship of spirit was withdrawn from him, that was more than he could bear, and it is claimed that he died of a literally broken heart, and that this was evidenced by the fact that both blood and water proceeded from the spear-wound inflicted shortly after his death.​

You fail to understand that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Servant who came from the Father.
Before the LORD took on flesh to become a man, where was HE?

 

[David in NJ]

Plurality in the Bible does not always indicate individuals, nor does it ever with the word Elohim, the plurality of that word always refers to majesty sir.

With Elohim it does, for the Scripture declares it: Let US make man in OUR Image according to OUR Likeness

Stay with the WORD who was God in the beginning and pray to the WORD which became flesh and HIS Glory was seen.
The Glory of the only begotten Son of God who is full of Grace and Truth.
The WORD is Eternal LIFE which no man can receive from the Father, but only through the Son.

At that time the Feast of Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple courts in Solomon’s Colonnade. So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

 

[Wrangler]

Impossible. Jesus created all things that came into existence.

Frankly, that is NOT what Scripture says. For him and through him but not by him.

 

[Wrangler]

Sure, it does, and you know it.

In fact, I KNOW this verse as well as John 1:1 does not even mention Jesus.

Think past the fog of lies trinitarians have indoctrinated you with. Just because a verse ‘could’ be interpreted a certain way does not make other interpretations invalid and is far from an explicit teaching.

No, the Isaiah verse does not refer to the Messiah. We KNOW this because the Jewish religion does not take it that way. It’s simply trinitarian revisionist history after 1500 years of the verse firmly being understood to refer to an OT prince.

 

[Wrangler]

Sure, it does.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Again, this verse does not even refer to Jesus.

 

[theefaith]

Is it your assumption that Genesis and John are referring to the same beginning?

Is there more than one God?

 

[keithr]

You fail to understand that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Servant who came from the Father.

I fail to understand why you would say that, or what bearing it has on the discussion!

Before the LORD took on flesh to become a man, where was HE?

Most likely he was at home with his Father. Why do you ask?

 

[David in NJ]

I fail to understand why you would say that, or what bearing it has on the discussion!


Most likely he was at home with his Father. Why do you ask?

It has everything to do with it.

Where was home for the Son?

 

[David in NJ]

In fact, I KNOW this verse as well as John 1:1 does not even mention Jesus.

Think past the fog of lies trinitarians have indoctrinated you with. Just because a verse ‘could’ be interpreted a certain way does not make other interpretations invalid and is far from an explicit teaching.

No, the Isaiah verse does not refer to the Messiah. We KNOW this because the Jewish religion does not take it that way. It’s simply trinitarian revisionist history after 1500 years of the verse firmly being understood to refer to an OT prince.

How many interpretations of God's word did He give us?