1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Its also about OBEY JESUS, OBEY JESUS. He gave us tongues individually as a prayer language. And I DO use them that way in an emergency for someone else when I haven't heard what God's exact words would be.
Tongues
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Its also about OBEY JESUS, OBEY JESUS. He gave us tongues individually as a prayer language. And I DO use them that way in an emergency for someone else when I haven't heard what God's exact words would be.
Oh, so the words of Scripture are not sufficient proof? When Paul said "Do all speak in tongues?" rhetorically he expected the answer "NO!". In fact, Paul also wrote that tongues would cease, and cease they did. Modern tongues are DEFINITELY NOT specific human languages spoken supernaturally. They have been described as "babblings".
The gift of tongues is clearly shown to be specific human languages in Acts 2. And that same gift is discussed in 1 Corinthians. Also Paul's insistence that there be interpretation when tongues are spoken within a church confirms this. If someone begins to speak Russian in a Chinese assembly, then someone would also have to interpret the Russian in Chinese. Otherwise none would understand and none would be edified.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Can't we do all. What of what God gives us to do can you choose to disobey?
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I always believed "tongues" in the bible meant different languages.
There was a mixed group of people gathered on the day of Pentecost and they all heard the Apostles speak in their own language.
I never had an experience with talking in other tongues be they languages or other.
I know maybe one sentence and a couple words in spanish even after 2 years of classes in school.
I was thinking about learning mandarin though, or maybe something middle eastern might come in handy.
I have heard people speak in tongues, but I don't understand a word they're saying, and most times they don't translate.
It's just not important to me.
Maybe someday the Lord will give me a reason to, until then I'll just try not to butcher the english I have. LOL
Hugs
There was a mixed group of people gathered on the day of Pentecost and they all heard the Apostles speak in their own language.
I never had an experience with talking in other tongues be they languages or other.
I know maybe one sentence and a couple words in spanish even after 2 years of classes in school.
I was thinking about learning mandarin though, or maybe something middle eastern might come in handy.
I have heard people speak in tongues, but I don't understand a word they're saying, and most times they don't translate.
It's just not important to me.
Maybe someday the Lord will give me a reason to, until then I'll just try not to butcher the english I have. LOL
Hugs
Curtis has the best grasp on tongues that I have read on here, but he is mistaken about one thing -- that are 3 types of tongues. I'll explain in a moment.
Again, you may have already seen this 3 or 4 times in threads I have written in, but it needs to be done. Whenever discussing scripture and interpretation... Christians should always establish this verse right from the beginning, namely the part I bold typed:
1 Cor 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.
If we stick with what is written, we will not run into error. We will not accept human rationalization, nor domino theory explanations (this touches that, which touches that, which touches this, and this connects to that, and WOW.. crazy conclusion!)
First off, those who do not pray in the tongues are at a loss attempting to understand something outside of their experience. They are trying with their natural mind to understand the things of the spirit, and it's just not going to happen. There might be some understanding, but not the true understanding simply because they have not experienced it for themselves.
EXAMPLE: You can explain how going down a roller coaster has a certain exuberance when you reach the bottom turn that affects you in the abdomen, but until a person experiences such a thing, they will only "kinda" understand.
We should always explain to people that there are deep and wonderful reasons for why a person would want to pray in the spirit (which means tongues) and not just their native English (if they speak English).
Like this: Okay, Addy. When you pray for Rita, you only know a very few things about her. You might know X, Y, and Z, and that she is having an issue at her job lately, so you are able to pray in English X, Y, Z, and the issue you know she has with her job. That's it! That's all. No more.
But the Holy Spirit knows EVERYTHING about Rita, and so when you pray for Rita in the spirit, you He intercedes for her through your praying in tongues, in ways that you can never imagine, and at depths that you could never achieve by praying with your natural understanding.
Allow me to cite the scripture:
1 Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
And because this is outside your understanding, you're thinking, "hmmm huh? So what do I think about if I'm speaking in tongues that I do not understand?"
And the answer to that question is given by Paul here:
1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1 Cor 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, and I will pray with my mind also; I will sing with my spirit, and I will sing with my mind also.
Beautiful! So you think about Rita while praying in tongues, and you think various things on her behalf, while the Holy Spirit is praying through you, too.
This is 100% practical! It's not ethereal. Very concrete and helpful to both yourself and Rita.
How is it helpful to myself, you ask?
1 Cor 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
When you pray in tongues, the Holy Spirit is speaking to God through you. When you exercise this gift, you will physically experience on your inner man, which then affects your soul, uplifting... edification.
VERY PRACTICAL. God wants us to be built up. He wants us to build up His church... i.e. edify others. So we need to be built up ourselves in order to do that.
Did not Jesus have to pray everyday, often, to be able to do His ministry which helped others? Of course!
Now this next verse is not exactly about tongues per se, but it's truly on target.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words.
Romans 8:27 And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
I experience this a lot. Sighs and groanings too deep for words. I contemplate the sin of the world and the blasphemies against God and His name, and the injustices I see every day, and I just groan and sigh. If I did not, I would be sicker than sick.
But it's all about prayer.. to the Lord.
I'll come back in a few minutes and pick up... and explain some things that need to be explained from scripture. More about tongues.
BRB
Again, you may have already seen this 3 or 4 times in threads I have written in, but it needs to be done. Whenever discussing scripture and interpretation... Christians should always establish this verse right from the beginning, namely the part I bold typed:
1 Cor 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.
If we stick with what is written, we will not run into error. We will not accept human rationalization, nor domino theory explanations (this touches that, which touches that, which touches this, and this connects to that, and WOW.. crazy conclusion!)
First off, those who do not pray in the tongues are at a loss attempting to understand something outside of their experience. They are trying with their natural mind to understand the things of the spirit, and it's just not going to happen. There might be some understanding, but not the true understanding simply because they have not experienced it for themselves.
EXAMPLE: You can explain how going down a roller coaster has a certain exuberance when you reach the bottom turn that affects you in the abdomen, but until a person experiences such a thing, they will only "kinda" understand.
We should always explain to people that there are deep and wonderful reasons for why a person would want to pray in the spirit (which means tongues) and not just their native English (if they speak English).
Like this: Okay, Addy. When you pray for Rita, you only know a very few things about her. You might know X, Y, and Z, and that she is having an issue at her job lately, so you are able to pray in English X, Y, Z, and the issue you know she has with her job. That's it! That's all. No more.
But the Holy Spirit knows EVERYTHING about Rita, and so when you pray for Rita in the spirit, you He intercedes for her through your praying in tongues, in ways that you can never imagine, and at depths that you could never achieve by praying with your natural understanding.
Allow me to cite the scripture:
1 Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
And because this is outside your understanding, you're thinking, "hmmm huh? So what do I think about if I'm speaking in tongues that I do not understand?"
And the answer to that question is given by Paul here:
1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1 Cor 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, and I will pray with my mind also; I will sing with my spirit, and I will sing with my mind also.
Beautiful! So you think about Rita while praying in tongues, and you think various things on her behalf, while the Holy Spirit is praying through you, too.
This is 100% practical! It's not ethereal. Very concrete and helpful to both yourself and Rita.
How is it helpful to myself, you ask?
1 Cor 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
When you pray in tongues, the Holy Spirit is speaking to God through you. When you exercise this gift, you will physically experience on your inner man, which then affects your soul, uplifting... edification.
VERY PRACTICAL. God wants us to be built up. He wants us to build up His church... i.e. edify others. So we need to be built up ourselves in order to do that.
Did not Jesus have to pray everyday, often, to be able to do His ministry which helped others? Of course!
Now this next verse is not exactly about tongues per se, but it's truly on target.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words.
Romans 8:27 And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
I experience this a lot. Sighs and groanings too deep for words. I contemplate the sin of the world and the blasphemies against God and His name, and the injustices I see every day, and I just groan and sigh. If I did not, I would be sicker than sick.
But it's all about prayer.. to the Lord.
I'll come back in a few minutes and pick up... and explain some things that need to be explained from scripture. More about tongues.
BRB
Jesus never got the cessationist memo: he said those who believe have signs of tongues and healing following them, in Mark 16, and that those who believe can do the same works Jesus did, in John 14:12.
Peter also missed that memo: he said the same gifts of the Holy Spirit that came on Pentecost are for
for all who God shall call, Acts 2:39.
Paul said he wanted the church at Corinth to have spiritual gifts, charisma in the Greek - where charismatic comes from - until Jesus returns, in 1 Corinthians 1:7, so he also never got the cessationist memo that spiritual gifts and miracles were only for the apostles and ended when they died.
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My full quote: Prove they are not for everybody...you can't. Just like I can't prove they are for everybody. Don't believe me? Prove me wrong! - My point is that, according to the word, that I received through a parachurch ministry, that ministers to the body at large, and has done so for going on 50 years, scripture doesn't prove tongues for all, one way or the other.
"4 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." - Ephesians 4: 1-6
I received the gift of tongues when a tongue of fire flew into my chest; what a difference this gift has made for me. I wish all spoke in tongues! But that's God's call, not mine. Shalom.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Joh 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
Jesus prayed in the spirit, too.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
I said that Curtis was mistaken about there being 3 types of tongues. There's only one type.
So let's dig in.
Remember... we are going to stick with what is written. Do remember this. If we stick with what is written, you may be amazed at what I am about to point out.
Acts 2:6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
What's the key word in this verse?
It does NOT say that the disciples were speaking the languages of these people (Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians).
.
What does it say? Remember... Stick with what is written.
The verse says that these people "heard" them speaking in their own language.
The miracle was taking place in their hearing.
OH, OH, OH! I can hear you in disbelief and think I'm nuts.
Can I corroborate that supposition? I think I can. We also have this:
Acts 2:13 But others mocking said, "They are filled with new wine."
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.
Acts 2:15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day;
Very clearly, those who were mocking... actually heard the babbling, or jibberish, from the disciples mouths because they were speaking in tongues like I do. Syllables. That's what these mockers thought! "These Jewish guys are babbling and stumbling over their speech because they are drunk!"
Why else would they say that? If they heard the disciples speaking the languages of all the other visitors there, they would not have thought or said that. They would know clearly that a group of men were making announcements to the peoples from various regions, and would not have thought anything about it... because you can tell when people speak in other languages. There is a type of knowing when people speak grammar and sentences in a foreign language, even when you do not know how to speak the foreign language.
Next post in a minute...
So let's dig in.
Remember... we are going to stick with what is written. Do remember this. If we stick with what is written, you may be amazed at what I am about to point out.
Acts 2:6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
What's the key word in this verse?
It does NOT say that the disciples were speaking the languages of these people (Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians).
.
What does it say? Remember... Stick with what is written.
The verse says that these people "heard" them speaking in their own language.
The miracle was taking place in their hearing.
OH, OH, OH! I can hear you in disbelief and think I'm nuts.
Can I corroborate that supposition? I think I can. We also have this:
Acts 2:13 But others mocking said, "They are filled with new wine."
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.
Acts 2:15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day;
Very clearly, those who were mocking... actually heard the babbling, or jibberish, from the disciples mouths because they were speaking in tongues like I do. Syllables. That's what these mockers thought! "These Jewish guys are babbling and stumbling over their speech because they are drunk!"
Why else would they say that? If they heard the disciples speaking the languages of all the other visitors there, they would not have thought or said that. They would know clearly that a group of men were making announcements to the peoples from various regions, and would not have thought anything about it... because you can tell when people speak in other languages. There is a type of knowing when people speak grammar and sentences in a foreign language, even when you do not know how to speak the foreign language.
Next post in a minute...
So if the disciples were "babbling syllables" and the miracle took place in the ears of the foreigners (that is what is actually written), then the tongues we read about in 1 Corinthians 14 is in complete harmony with Acts 2.
Remember Addy, and all you others, God wants you to have power. The kingdom of God does NOT consist in talk. But in Power.
1 Cor 4:20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.
Those of you who grieve the Holy Spirit, and resist Him, and use your natural mind to try and explain why He is not at work, are grieving Him terribly.
And your natural mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit.
1 Cor 2:14 The natural man cannot receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
This is not speaking about the unsaved! This is speaking about the Christian's soul. The soul, which has unfortunately been rendered "natural" cannot understand the things of the Spirit, because spiritual things are only understood by spiritual discernment.
You are comfortable doing things in your flesh, and that is exactly what it is. Your flesh!
But when you step out in faith (Without faith you CANNOT please the Lord!).. you are able to enter into the Spirit and do things that are not possible with the flesh.
More in a minute....
Remember Addy, and all you others, God wants you to have power. The kingdom of God does NOT consist in talk. But in Power.
1 Cor 4:20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.
Those of you who grieve the Holy Spirit, and resist Him, and use your natural mind to try and explain why He is not at work, are grieving Him terribly.
And your natural mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit.
1 Cor 2:14 The natural man cannot receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
This is not speaking about the unsaved! This is speaking about the Christian's soul. The soul, which has unfortunately been rendered "natural" cannot understand the things of the Spirit, because spiritual things are only understood by spiritual discernment.
You are comfortable doing things in your flesh, and that is exactly what it is. Your flesh!
But when you step out in faith (Without faith you CANNOT please the Lord!).. you are able to enter into the Spirit and do things that are not possible with the flesh.
More in a minute....
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Paul said there are diversities of tongues, meaning more than one.
There’s irrefutably an unknown tongue UNDERSTOOD BY NO MAN, ever:
Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for NO MAN understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh MYSTERIES.
I hear that bogus claim from every cessationist, that tongues are understood by everyone in their own language, but there’s irrefutably more than one type.
They need to read the Bible instead of proof texts.
The unknown tongue is ignorantly referred to as babbling.
If all tongues were known languages, that means when Pail ordered the Corinthians to forbid not speaking in tongues, he told them not to forbid speaking in known languages.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Think about how quiet a church service would be if they forbade speaking in a known language.
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
It's easier for me if I hear it...
But from what I understand is that we aren't all feet or hands, and everyone has a different role to play to some measure.
So while one is given this gift, another may have a different gift. But that we should all work together to come to the same spiritual understanding, or edifying of the body.
I have a question though..
Is tongues strictly for hearing or can one write it out and then translate it on paper?
If you could describe the grammar, what would it look like?
Hugs
But from what I understand is that we aren't all feet or hands, and everyone has a different role to play to some measure.
So while one is given this gift, another may have a different gift. But that we should all work together to come to the same spiritual understanding, or edifying of the body.
I have a question though..
Is tongues strictly for hearing or can one write it out and then translate it on paper?
If you could describe the grammar, what would it look like?
Hugs
1 Corinthians 13:1 KJV
1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Or . . . there were various people speaking in each of their languages. Other tongues are not understood, so it seems to me there is more than one sort.
Much love!
And not just grab onto one interpretation arbitrarily if others are possible, without a full examination.
Much love
Curtis was correct in his handling those who think that the gifts have stopped. Utter nonsense. The gifts are for the building up of the church and to do ministry.
The Holy Spirit has not abandoned us to do His work without Him. The Holy Spirit is still with us, and always will be, and His gifts are necessary to achieve His work.
As I think it was pointed out, the strange idea that when the bible got canonized we no longer need the incredible and powerful gifts of the Holy Spirit is just plain stupid.
And then the argument they conceive to support that absurdity are these 3 verses????
1 Cor 13:8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
STOP! Has knowledge passed away????? NO!
Again. Has knowledge passed away???? NO!
1 Cor 13:9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;
1 Cor 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
What or Who is the perfect in v.10?
Jesus and/or His 2nd Coming.
How could that ever be construed to be a book????
Can you say ridiculous with me? I know you can. All together now. R I D I C U L O U S
When Christ returns and we meet Him in the air, then our corruptible natures shall put on incorruption. Our mortality will put on immortality.
That is what is meant by "when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away".
More in a minute....
The Holy Spirit has not abandoned us to do His work without Him. The Holy Spirit is still with us, and always will be, and His gifts are necessary to achieve His work.
As I think it was pointed out, the strange idea that when the bible got canonized we no longer need the incredible and powerful gifts of the Holy Spirit is just plain stupid.
And then the argument they conceive to support that absurdity are these 3 verses????
1 Cor 13:8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
STOP! Has knowledge passed away????? NO!
Again. Has knowledge passed away???? NO!
1 Cor 13:9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;
1 Cor 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
What or Who is the perfect in v.10?
Jesus and/or His 2nd Coming.
How could that ever be construed to be a book????
Can you say ridiculous with me? I know you can. All together now. R I D I C U L O U S
When Christ returns and we meet Him in the air, then our corruptible natures shall put on incorruption. Our mortality will put on immortality.
That is what is meant by "when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away".
More in a minute....
They also didn't understand the effects of the new wine of the Holy Spirit! My pastor compared it to a general anesthetic. Heady stuff, I tell you. The Lord used it before He cut open my heart. It was well worth it, but what a shock to the system!
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