What is Mariology?

[face2face]

Hi F2F,

So you believe that since "Mary is wrong on two (2) counts" that is evidence of her not being sinless or pure???

Your theory is that when a mother is concerned for the safety of her child and she calls His earthly father his father that makes her "wrong", sinful and impure?

Mary

Hi Marymog,

So for the record you believe Mary wrongly accused Jesus, didn't acknowledge God as his Father and failed to understand the Lord's words, but you say she is pure and sinless and not capable of sin? ...and the Mother of God.

Be honest...does Mary here fit the profile of someone who is God's mother?

 

[face2face]

Conclusion:

Mary the (so called ) Mother of God

1. Falsely accused Jesus of being a disobedient child (Luke 2:48)
2. Incorrectly referred to Joseph as being his father (Luke 2:48)
3. Couldn't understand Jesus' correction (Luke 2:49-50)

The truth is Mary was a worried mum who was concerned for her son's welfare but failed to see the bigger picture unfolding before her. She was fallible, capable of sin and like all of us frail and weak through the flesh.

 

[Mungo]

Welcome back Mungo,
So you are saying now that Mary was wrong on two counts? (please clarify so we can move forward)

Mungo, its like pulling teeth with you...why cant you speak to the Scripture? Why cant you simply say Mary was wrong and Jesus was right?
Or
Do you believe Mary was impeccable? When your pope speaks ex cathedra do you believe he is infallible and without error? If your Pope being born of sinners is blameless while performing his rituals, what of Mary who you say is the Mother of God....is she infallible and not capable of sin? Or fallible and capable of sin? Which is it?

It's time for some honesty on your part.

Stop diverting.
You stated
noun: infallibility
the quality of being infallible; the inability to be wrong.

In other words, we have Catholic members here who believe Mary couldn't sin, or could never be wrong in any way.

My response to that was
More lies about Catholics.
infallible
n adjective
incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)
Infallibility is nothing to do with sinning.
Show me where a Catholic member here has said that Mary is infallible.

You have failed to do that.
Instead you try and divert on to something else.

It's time for some honesty on your part.

 

[face2face]

Stop diverting.
You stated
noun: infallibility
the quality of being infallible; the inability to be wrong.

In other words, we have Catholic members here who believe Mary couldn't sin, or could never be wrong in any way.

My response to that was
More lies about Catholics.
infallible
n adjective
incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)
Infallibility is nothing to do with sinning.
Show me where a Catholic member here has said that Mary is infallible.

You have failed to do that.
Instead you try and divert on to something else.

It's time for some honesty on your part.

Firstly, infallibility simply means the inability to err, or the impossibility of error. If used in that context it carries the same meaning as sin:

Sinning:
ἁμαρτωλός, erring from the way or mark, erring from the divine law, sinful; also, as subst., one who thus errs, a sinner, transgressor. Among the Jews, Gentiles were called ἁμαρτωλοί, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament

Can Mary err? can she be in error? Are her words fallible? Can she sin?

You say she cannot sin, you say she is pure, but now you are defending that she can make mistakes, she can err, she is fallible? Or maybe you don't actually know yourself?

I can show you posts on this thread that state clearly you believe Mary couldn't sin. If a person cannot sin Mungo (at all) they must by its very definition mean they are infallible , after all you believe she is the Mother of God, dont you? How can the Mother of God be wrong, speak error, err, be fallible?

We are waiting...

 

[JohnPaul]

OK, I'll kick this off with your first query about the Catechism.
It says this in para 971 (note the part I have emboldened).
"All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

Footnote 514 references the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium para 66. Here is an extract.
Placed by the grace of God, as God's Mother, next to her Son, and exalted above all angels and men, Mary intervened in the mysteries of Christ and is justly honored by a special cult in the Church...This cult, as it always existed, although it is altogether singular, differs essentially from the cult of adoration which is offered to the Incarnate Word, as well to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and it is most favorable to it.

Note: "cult" here is the original meaning of the word - "a system of religious devotion directed towards a particular figure or object" - not the more common modern term "a relatively small religious group regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members"
Both quotes from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary.

Shouldn't devotion be made only to God the Father and his only begotten son Jesus Christ, didn't Jesus say pray only to me to get to the father?

 

[JohnPaul]

Mary was a sinner saved by grace.
She was highly favored but she is not deity.
She is not capable of hearing and answering prayers.
She had other children.

I don't believe the blessed mother ever sinned, it's why she was chosen by God for the immaculate conception.

 

[face2face]

An important note concerning this thread, one I need to make known now before we press on.

For the purpose of highlighting the absurdity of Catholic Mariology, I have and will bring to light aspects of Mary's fallibility, however I do so not to dwell on it in a spirit of superiority, but to reveal the errorous teaching of the RCC and their dogma's. Yes, Mary like others lacked understanding through most of Jesus' ministry, however she won through to a place among the first believers when what was dark was made plain. And I believe that's the point of the Divine record, if she is not to be blamed or scorned, she is also not to be exalted as a supernatural being full of all graces and wisdom and exempt from all human frailty. We honor Mary best by giving her the dignity that is hers in Scripture and not by indulging in speculative glorification like the Catholics are doing here. Mary was contrite of heart and a humble servant of Yahweh and her blessedness is for God & Christ alone.

 

[JohnPaul]

An important note concerning this thread, one I need to make known now before we press on.

For the purpose of highlighting the absurdity of Catholic Mariology, I have and will bring to light aspects of Mary's fallibility, however I do so not to dwell on it in a spirit of superiority, but to reveal the errorous teaching of the RCC and their dogma's. Yes, Mary like others lacked understanding through most of Jesus' ministry, however she won through to a place among the first believers when what was dark was made plain. And I believe that's the point of the Divine record, if she is not to be blamed or scorned, she is also not to be exalted as a supernatural being full of all graces and wisdom and exempt from all human frailty. We honor Mary best by giving her the dignity that is hers in Scripture and not by indulging in speculative glorification like the Catholics are doing here. Mary was contrite of heart and a humble servant of Yahweh and her blessedness is for God & Christ alone.

It was hard for me to accept this at first, as I am baptized Catholic and raised Catholic, very hard for me, but as I started to read the bible on my own, I came to accept that the Blessed Mother was not to be worshiped as a deity or prayed to or any other Saint, as Jesus said pray to me only to reach the father God Almighty, that through him all prayers shall be answered.

I was at a Catholic Church this past Friday for a family wedding and so much veneration of the Blessed Mother is shown throughout the Church, almost like they are pushing the Blessed Mother as the main focus of worship, I told a story in another thread on what made me stop going to the Catholic Church a decade ago and stop going by any denomination, I just couldn't take it anymore, so that one day changed my life and now I simply consider myself Christian, and let the Holy spirit of Christ guide me, instead of doing rituals as I did many of times in the Catholic Church.

 

[Taken]

OK, I'll kick this off with your first query about the Catechism.
It says this in para 971 (note the part I have emboldened).
"All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion.

Elisabeth said to and about Mary-
Luke 1
[42] And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Mary said about herself-
Luke 1
[48] For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Catholic Teaching-
"The (Catholic) Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."

How, Mary being "CALLED" BLESSED, translates to "DEVOTION TO" Mary and a NECESSARY part of Christian (Catholic) "WORSHIP"... is disturbing.

There IS Huge difference, between recognizing;
Mary's Devotion TO God.
Gods Blessing TO Mary.
** and being "DEVOTED TO" Mary.
Worshipping God
** and making Mary a part of a Worship Service expressly Established by God, For God.

Do you have Scriptural teachings to DO, that reveals...
* examples of any persons being Devoted to other persons?
* or examples of any Worship gatherings unto God to be shared with another?

TY,
Taken

 

[JohnPaul]

Elisabeth said to and about Mary-
Luke 1
[42] And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Mary said about herself-
Luke 1
[48] For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Catholic Teaching-
"The (Catholic) Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."

How, Mary being "CALLED" BLESSED, translates to "DEVOTION TO" Mary and a NECESSARY part of Christian (Catholic) "WORSHIP"... is disturbing.

There IS Huge difference, between recognizing;
Mary's Devotion TO God.
Gods Blessing TO Mary.
** and being "DEVOTED TO" Mary.
Worshipping God
** and making Mary a part of a Worship Service expressly Established by God, For God.

Do you have Scriptural teachings to DO, that reveals...
* examples of any persons being Devoted to other persons?
* or examples of any Worship gatherings unto God to be shared with another?

TY,
Taken

When I use the term Blessed, I use it as a term that Mary was blessed to have had the immaculate conception of Christ, and I believe she is blessed, but not as a person of worship, that is only meant for Christ and God the Father.

 

[Mungo]

Firstly, infallibility simply means the inability to err, or the impossibility of error. If used in that context it carries the same meaning as sin:

Sinning:
ἁμαρτωλός, erring from the way or mark, erring from the divine law, sinful; also, as subst., one who thus errs, a sinner, transgressor. Among the Jews, Gentiles were called ἁμαρτωλοί, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament

Can Mary err? can she be in error? Are her words fallible? Can she sin?

You say she cannot sin, you say she is pure, but now you are defending that she can make mistakes, she can err, she is fallible? Or maybe you don't actually know yourself?

I can show you posts on this thread that state clearly you believe Mary couldn't sin. If a person cannot sin Mungo (at all) they must by its very definition mean they are infallible , after all you believe she is the Mother of God, dont you? How can the Mother of God be wrong, speak error, err, be fallible?

We are waiting...

Being wrong about something is not sin
sin1
n noun
1 an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)

SIN
Definition
"A word, deed or desire in opposition to the eternal law" (St. Augustine). Sin is a deliberate transgression of a law of God, which identifies the four essentials of every sin. A law is involved, implying that there are physical laws that operate with necessity, and moral laws that can be disregarded by human beings. God is offended, so that the divine dimension is never absent from any sin. Sin is a transgression, since Catholicism holds that grace is resistible and the divine will can be disobeyed. And the transgression is deliberate, which means that a sin is committed whenever a person knows that something is contrary to the law of God and then freely does the action anyway. (Etym. Old English synn, syn, sin; Old High German sunta, suntea, perhaps to Latin sons, guilty.)
(Catholic Dictionary)

1440 Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him. At the same time it damages communion with the Church. For this reason conversion entails both God's forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church, which are expressed and accomplished liturgically by the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church)


Fallibility/Infallibility in theology is something different.
fallible
n adjective capable of making mistakes or being wrong.
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)

INFALLIBILITY
Definition
Freedom from error in teaching the universal Church in matters of faith or morals.......
The source of the infallibility is the supernatural assistance of the Holy Spirit, who protects the supreme teacher of the Church from error and therefore from misleading the people of God.
(Catholic Dictionary)

Regarding Mary:
I did not say she could not sin. Please stop claiming I say something I did not.
That is dishonest debating.
The doctrine is that she did not sin.
Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life. (CCC para 411)

I asked you to show me where a Catholic member here has said that Mary is infallible.
You have failed to do that.
Instead you try and divert on to something else.

It's time for some honesty on your part.

 

[Mungo]

Shouldn't devotion be made only to God the Father and his only begotten son Jesus Christ,

What evidence do you have to claim that?

didn't Jesus say pray only to me to get to the father?

If he did then you can show me where he says that.

 

[Mungo]

When I use the term Blessed, I use it as a term that Mary was blessed to have had the immaculate conception of Christ, and I believe she is blessed, but not as a person of worship, that is only meant for Christ and God the Father.

Catholics do not worship Mary.

 

[JohnPaul]

Catholics do not worship Mary.

They don't? You could've fooled me all the years I went to Church, and am now 51, and I saw plenty of worship of Mary.

 

[JohnPaul]

What evidence do you have to claim that?


If he did then you can show me where he says that.

I don't have to show you anything, if you don't know this by now then you must've missed something, or choose to deny it.

 

[Mungo]

They don't? You could've fooled me all the years I went to Church, and am now 51, and I saw plenty of worship of Mary.

I think you confuse devotion and honour with worship.
Please give me an example of what you consider worship in relation to Mary

 

[Mungo]

I don't have to show you anything, if you don't know this by now then you must've missed something, or choose to deny it.

In other words you can't show me evidence of what you claim.

 

[JohnPaul]

I think you confuse devotion and honour with worship.
Please give me an example of what you consider worship in relation to Mary

I'm not going to argue or fight with a fellow Christian, you know what it is you are just trying to disguise it, end of my conversation with you, I see you are trying to twist things to your liking, I'll have no part of it.

 

[JohnPaul]

In other words you can't show me evidence of what you claim.

I don't have to show you anything, you already know it.

I'm done now, pick on someone else to argue with.

 

[Taken]

When I use the term Blessed, I use it as a term that Mary was blessed to have had the immaculate conception of Christ, and I believe she is blessed, but not as a person of worship, that is only meant for Christ and God the Father.

TY, but my comment was to Mungo who quoted Catholic teaching, and was asking him to reveal Scriptural verification.

"Immaculate" conception, as you describe, sure. Mary was MADE pregnant without her seed, or engaging in intercourse.
Yet, "immaculate conception", (depending on who one is having a discussion with), appears to have "multiple meanings", per Catholic teaching.

Agree- Worship is exclusive To and For;
The Lord God Almighty.

God Bless,
Taken