Tongues

[Paul Christensen]

Yes, this is essentially correct. In my opinion, most people confuse the gift of tongues with glossolalia. Both are valid experiences.

Glossolalia, in a Christian context, is the utterance of inarticulate sounds, whereby one wishes to give expression to a highly emotional feeling of joy, exuberance, enthusiasm, elation and things such as these. On the other hand, one might wish to express an extreme emotion of pain, helplessness, weakness, penitence, contrition, supplication, pleading etc. In either case, one might experience the outcry of inarticulate sounds.

In my experience after 55 years of being associated with Pentecostals, this is not the description of the tongues that I have heard and use myself. The tongues that I know of others and myself is a cold, deliberate speaking of an expressive and articulate unlearned language while in private prayer to God. It is a form of communication in the Spirit. It can produce joy and an assurance of God's presence, but it does not require any heightened emotional state to speak the language. Merely watching Youtube videos of the invasion of the privacy of those worshiping the Lord in tongues during services does not provide a true definition of what speaking in tongues really is.

Paul mentions this in his letter to the Romans wherein he speaks about the inarticulate sounds one might make during a time of intense prayer. In that context he is talking about the sufferings of the present time and the anxious longings for the restoration of creation. During such intense feelings of helplessness and a longing for the return of Jesus, we may find ourselves, not knowing what to pray, speaking with inarticulate sounds. He encourages the believers to remember that as we pray, the Spirit joins with us, knowing what needs to be said.

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26-27

In this case, we are the ones doing the groaning. Our groaning is too deep for words, but he who searches the hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, who intercedes on our behalf according to the will of God. We may not know what to pray, but the Spirit does. We take comfort knowing that even during those times when we simply can't find the words to say what we really want to say, the Spirit helps us.

This is not tongues at all. Tongues is an articulate language in the Spirit where a person, in their private prayer time, speaks directly to God mysteries in the Spirit. At no time does Paul in his 1 Corinthians 14 teaching describe tongues as inarticulate groaning. The intercession of the Spirit with groanings is a different type of intercessory prayer called travail in the Spirit. Jesus had it when He is described as praying to the father with strong crying and tears. My pastor, in the 1970s, described travail as he experienced it, and it was not the speaking in tongues.

I mentioned earlier that this was in a Christian context. In fact, other religions practice glossolalia, even pagans and polytheists, which is why Paul needed to correct the Corinthian church. They were possibly speaking glossolalia, mistakenly believing it was speaking in tongues.

The type of glossolalia spoke in pagan religious practice is ritualised incantation of repeated phrases and not an expressive, articulate language spoken to their gods. It is nothing like the Christian praying in tongues to God.

The gift of speaking in tongues is NOT the gift of speaking another language. Rather, the gift of speaking in tongues is a miracle performed by the Holy Spirit whereby a preacher's words are heard by foreigners in their native tongue. The first we hear of this miracle is found in the Second Chapter of Acts.

There is absolutely no New Testament backing for this. In fact, you are illegally adding to God's Word, and this carries a penalty. The miracle of the book of Acts is that the listeners heard the speaking of the wonderful works of God in their own regional dialects. This was not the Gospel being preached to them. Peter got up and preached the Gospel to them in plain Greek, which was the official language that they all would have understood, seeing that Greek was the official language of commerce.

A modern example of this might involve a preacher, speaking in English, but simultaneously being heard in French, German, Italian, Spanish and other languages. The one speaking is not speaking a language foreign to him; he is speaking his own native tongue. He is being heard in other languages instead. This may explain why some people in the first century thought the men were drunk. It would be like watching a movie translated into another language. The words we hear don't correspond to the movement of the lips.

Although this has happened during church history, it is very rare, and not the normal experience of believers praying to God in tongues. When believers speak publicly in tongues, Paul's teaching is that the utterance needs to be interpreted.

All I am seeing in your post is just the same nonsense that those who don't know their Bible very well, have never done a serious expository study of 1 Corinthians 14 other than cherry pick random Bible verses to try and prove their point. Anyone who adds to God's Word and either denies or ignores what is actually written in God's Word, cannot be in touch with the Holy Spirit and are still in the flesh and their understanding of spiritual matters come just from that source. The Scriptures says that those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I really wish you wouldn't do this on my thread. If you want promote your belief that Tongues no longer exists, then go start your own thread...please!
You are welcome to express your belief, not download an agenda.

It is a pity that this forum doesn't have a protected forum that would prevent people hijacking a thread with opposing agendas. On Christianforums.com the Spiritual Gifts thread is protected for those who believe in modern prophecy, tongues, etc., and anyone who hijacks the thread with rubbish and nonsense opposing tongues gets the kybosh very quickly when reported.

 

[Tong2020]

With regards the issue whether the gift of tongues have ceased or not, this is what I have to say. That such spiritual gift is given by the Holy Spirit as He determines and wills. It is not for us to say of they are no longer given today or are still.

Now, if there are those who claims to have the gift of tongues, others should not be quick to say or perhaps judge without examining the same by testing the spirit, whether it is of God or of the devil. And concerning such matter, the church be reminded, that no gift produces anything that is sinful, such as it causing division of the brethren.

Tong
R4641

 

[Truman]

It is a pity that this forum doesn't have a protected forum that would prevent people hijacking a thread with opposing agendas. On Christianforums.com the Spiritual Gifts thread is protected for those who believe in modern prophecy, tongues, etc., and anyone who hijacks the thread with rubbish and nonsense opposing tongues gets the kybosh very quickly when reported.

Good idea. Before I came here, I joined Christianforums. On my first day, I mentioned that I had the gift of tongues. Two guys jumped me and demanded I recant. I refused.
I was plastered with spam, which somehow pushed me off the site. My virus alarm also went off, though it turned out it was a false alarm. I tried to go back a few months ago but wasn't permitted to rejoin.
Whoever spammed me must've slandered me and now I'm on the blacklist. I guess.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I agree with your post here, but I think it necessary to correct a misconception. Paul wasn't suggesting that all should speak in tongues or that he expected that all would speak in tongues eventually. He wished that all would speak in tongues, but only under the proviso that the result was a prophetic word. When Paul says, "I wish you all spoke in tongues", he means to say, "I wish you were all giving us a message from God."

In other words, in Paul's view, the Holy Spirit grants the gift of tongues so that those who are preaching the word of God, or speaking for God in some way, have a broader audience. Tongues is not a gift that stands on its own; it serves the preacher or the prophet. Paul is helping the Corinthian believers, and us, identify a genuine miracle of tongues. That is, if someone is speaking in tongues, everyone will hear a word from God.

Nonsense. That's putting words into Paul's mouth that he never said.

 

[Paul Christensen]

With regards the issue whether the gift of tongues have ceased or not, this is what I have to say. That such spiritual gift is given by the Holy Spirit as He determines and wills. It is not for us to say of they are no longer given today or are still.

Now, if there are those who claims to have the gift of tongues, others should not be quick to say or perhaps judge without examining the same by testing the spirit, whether it is of God or of the devil. And concerning such matter, the church be reminded, that no gift produces anything that is sinful, such as it causing division of the brethren.

Tong
R4641

I was reading John Calvin's commentary on Acts this morning, and he said something very interesting about the spiritual gifts. He does say that the gifts ceased, but he says that they ceased because of the slothfulness of believers in their commitment to Chrit and that the gifts of the Spirit are essential for the furtherance of the Gospel in these modern times (15th Century). It is interesting that many who claim to be Calvinist and Cessationist, have never actually read what Calvin has actually said about the gifts of the Spirit. In his commentary on 1 Corinthians he clearly implies that if the gift of tongues was still active in his time, he would be speaking it quite happily. He says in that commentary that tongues died out because of the increasing misuse of it.

It is always good to get the facts from the horse's mouth!

 

[amadeus]

Well now all of this deep arguing. Can anyone convince another of the Truth other than God? God has convinced me!

I received from God the gift of speaking in tongues in 1976. I use the gift seven days a week. I have done so for many years. Who is going to forbid me from doing it?

"Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." I Cor 14:39

 

[Berserk]

The gifts of prophesy and tongues ARE indeed for every believer. In 1 Cor. Paul teaches, "you can ALL prophesy one by one (14:31)" and reinforces this point with his wish, "I want you ALL to...prophesy (14:5)." His wish echoes Moses' wish in Num. 1:29: "I wish ALL the Lotd's people were prophets." In Jesus' day the Jews took Moses'; wish as a prophecy that would be fu.fillled when the Messiah came.
Similarly, Paul teaches, "I want you ALL to speak in tongues (14:5), reinforcing his wish by adding, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all (14:18)."

When I spoke in tongues during my Spirit baptism at age 16 in a darnened amphitheater at age 16, an awestruck eyewitness sat in awe and later told me that my face with glowing in the dark! a Lutheran pastor later approached me to say, "I don't believe in tongues and just here as an interested spectator." I simply touched his forehead and this skeptic just exploded in other tongues! This tongues experience was by far the highlight of my life and I doubt I would still even be a Christian without it because I'm so naturally skeptical. Decades later I relive the ever intensifying wave after wave of liquid love that engulfed me, yes, possessed me as I spoke in tongues, while initially trying to suppress doing so because I didn't want to succumb the power of suggestion.

 

[Tong2020]

The gifts of prophesy and tongues ARE indeed for every believer. In 1 Cor. Paul teaches, "you can ALL prophesy one by one (14:31)" and reinforces this point with his wish, "I want you ALL to...prophesy (14:5)." His wish echoes Moses' wish in Num. 1:29: "I wish ALL the Lotd's people were prophets." In Jesus' day the Jews took Moses'; wish as a prophecy that would be fu.fillled when the Messiah came.
Similarly, Paul teaches, "I want you ALL to speak in tongues (14:5), reinforcing his wish by adding, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all (14:18)."

When I spoke in tongues during my Spirit baptism at age 16 in a darnened amphitheater at age 16, an awestruck eyewitness sat in awe and later told me that my face with glowing in the dark! a Lutheran pastor later approached me to say, "I don't believe in tongues and just here as an interested spectator." I simply touched his forehead and this skeptic just exploded in other tongues! This tongues experience was by far the highlight of my life and I doubt I would still even be a Christian without it because I'm so naturally skeptical. Decades later I relive the ever intensifying wave after wave of liquid love that engulfed me, yes, possessed me as I spoke in tongues, while initially trying to suppress doing so because I didn't want to succumb the power of suggestion.

<<<The gifts of prophesy and tongues ARE indeed for every believer.>>>

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Areall teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? (1 Cor.12)

Tong
R4648

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nonsense. That's putting words into Paul's mouth that he never said.

And so what? Be specific. Anyone can simply type the word "nonsense" as if that settles it. But it doesn't settle anything.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In my experience after 55 years of being associated with Pentecostals, this is not the description of the tongues that I have heard and use myself. The tongues that I know of others and myself is a cold, deliberate speaking of an expressive and articulate unlearned language while in private prayer to God. It is a form of communication in the Spirit. It can produce joy and an assurance of God's presence, but it does not require any heightened emotional state to speak the language.

I don't believe you. Anyone can claim to speak an "unknown language" but the claim is empty, just as Paul himself indicated. He argued that the purpose of language was to communicate. He gently attempted to explain to you that any claim to speak an unknown language was as absurd as a horn without a sound or a bell without a ring.

This is not tongues at all. Tongues is an articulate language in the Spirit where a person, in their private prayer time, speaks directly to God mysteries in the Spirit. At no time does Paul in his 1 Corinthians 14 teaching describe tongues as inarticulate groaning. The intercession of the Spirit with groanings is a different type of intercessory prayer called travail in the Spirit. Jesus had it when He is described as praying to the father with strong crying and tears. My pastor, in the 1970s, described travail as he experienced it, and it was not the speaking in tongues.

This is incorrect. Paul argued against this kind of thinking. He taught us to recognize the genuine from the fake. One way to recognize the genuine, he says, is to understand that, "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also." In other words, if you think you are speaking mysteries in the spirit, you aren't.

Although this has happened during church history, it is very rare, and not the normal experience of believers praying to God in tongues. When believers speak publicly in tongues, Paul's teaching is that the utterance needs to be interpreted.

You seem to have misunderstood Paul's argument. He isn't suggesting that the Corinthians continue to speak publicly in unknown languages as long as an interpreter is standing ready to translate. No. He is attempting to curtail the behavior altogether. He not only wants the utterance to be interpreted, he wants the speaker to interpret it himself. The one speaking the utterance needs to give the interpretation. He must interpret it. 1 Corinthians 14:5 Thus Paul declares that speaking or praying in an unknown language is useless, pointless, and not actually a real thing.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Better re read. He said he prays two ways - with His spirit AND with the understanding.

This is a common misunderstanding of Paul's letters to the Corinthians. In order to understand Paul's letters correctly, we must bear in mind that the Corinthians wrote to him first, wishing him to answer various questions. 1 Corinthians 7 begins with this statement, "Now concerning the things which you wrote . . ." From chapter seven until the end of the epistle, Paul sets out to answer a series of questions. And according to his style, he expresses the question in his own voice. For instance, he writes, "Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman." The portion in italics is not Paul's opinion; it is the question they want answered. They are exploring the notion of holiness and during those discussions, a group of men have decided that "it is good for a man not to touch a woman." What follows is Paul's opinion on the subject.

In chapter 14, Paul decided to contrast the behavior of the Corinthian with his own behavior. First he states what the Corinthians do. He follows this with a statement indicating what he himself does.

Corinthians:
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

Paul:
But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.

Corinthians:
One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself;

Paul:
but one who prophesies edifies the church.

Corinthians:
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

Paul:
I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

In other words, Paul is comparing what the Corinthians claim to be doing with that Paul actually does himself. He is hoping that using himself as an illustration, the Corinthians can learn to distinguish false signs and wonders from real signs and wonders.

Verse 14 gives the correct meaning of verse 15, which is why it’s helpful to read surrounding scriptures of a proof text, because a text with no context is frequently out of context.

Paul begins verse 15 with "what then is it?" This phrase is a rhetorical device intended to indicate that the previous idea was nonsensical. The idea that a man's spirit prays while his mind is unfruitful is absurd. Paul corrects this irrational statement to say that when a man actually prays with his spirit, he prays with his mind also.

 

[Grailhunter]

I am glad to see people sharing their ideas and experiences on the gift of "tongues."
But one thing you need to consider is that the Bible has information regarding these gifts that come in many forms. But you are reading the infancy of tongues in the Bible. As it is the gift has so many forms.

If you look in the Bible and the history of it they are closely associated with the Holy Spirit.
Christ gives us a little information Holy Spirit, some during His ministry and some at the Last Supper and there He gives us a run down on what the Holy Spirit is about. Most of this information comes from the Gospel of John.
Christ said that the Holy Spirit would come after He left. So as time went on tongues and the Holy Spirit manifested through history.
Today "tongues" and spiritual messages come in many forms and are seen from different perspectives.
Some of those that speak in tongues report that they were actually kneeling before Christ in Heaven.
But the experience is not just for those that are speaking, those around them can see and feel the Holy Spirit. It can be rather intense. Another reason for going to church.

Is Christianity a "loner" religion? Should we assemble and fellowship and support each other? If you think not and do not think that this is biblical....you probably know that I can provide scriptures. Sure there are scriptures but the storyline of the New Testament... Paul was not writing letters to individuals, he was writing letters to congregations. So today we have the "church of ones" what is this about? Those that do not assemble to fellowship and stand together and praise the Lord. Do you think that Christ might ask some that question on Judgment Day? Does God not deserve to be worshipped? Standing in the congregation of Christians, hands held high and singing hymns to the Lord. The reasoning behind not doing that....you might want to consider so you will be prepared for the question.

The gifts we know of today happen in those types of churches were the Spirits moves and loves on us by communicating with us.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26 KJV
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. John 14:26 NKJV

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. Romans 8:26

If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may be with you forever; John 14:15-16

Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13

And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. Romans 5:5

And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him. Acts 5:32

Where else are we to go? Who else should we fellowship with and stand to praise the Lord? What greater gift can we give a child but a good Christian upbringing. A church family, their time and thoughts spent with other Christians...In worship, in fellowship, things worth doing...dinners, picnic, fishing, camping, baseball, church plays, the choir .... enjoying each other's company and worshiping the Lord a long the way....and there is the Holy Spirit. A Spirit filled congregation is were you want to be....your children filled with the Holy Spirit....so very important. The church should be part of our life and lives of our children....

And this comes from a guy that has never spoke in tongues but has been greatly blessed because of being in the presence of the Holy Spirit and those that do speak in tongues and deliver messages of love in spiritual utterances.

 

[Bob Estey]

Are they for everybody?

[27] If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret.
[28] But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God. 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 RSV

 

[Truman]

[27] If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret.
[28] But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God. 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 RSV

Yes, it says that...but until we call all get it right, "Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
- 1 Corinthians 13:7
Praising in the Spirit, and praying in the Spirit, are not open public communications and, I believe, are not what this passage is referring to.
It's a good thing that we're under grace and not law...for the times that we do miss it!

 

[amadeus]

I don't believe you. Anyone can claim to speak an "unknown language" but the claim is empty, just as Paul himself indicated. He argued that the purpose of language was to communicate. He gently attempted to explain to you that any claim to speak an unknown language was as absurd as a horn without a sound or a bell without a ring.
This is incorrect. Paul argued against this kind of thinking. He taught us to recognize the genuine from the fake. One way to recognize the genuine, he says, is to understand that, "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also." In other words, if you think you are speaking mysteries in the spirit, you aren't.

You seem to have misunderstood Paul's argument. He isn't suggesting that the Corinthians continue to speak publicly in unknown languages as long as an interpreter is standing ready to translate. No. He is attempting to curtail the behavior altogether. He not only wants the utterance to be interpreted, he wants the speaker to interpret it himself. The one speaking the utterance needs to give the interpretation. He must interpret it. 1 Corinthians 14:5 Thus Paul declares that speaking or praying in an unknown language is useless, pointless, and not actually a real thing.

You, of course, as all of us, believe what you do, but I strongly suggest you be careful about in denying another person's testimony even though you have not experienced and doubt it authenticity. The final judgement is God's any case based on complete and absolute knowledge of each person. Who among us has that like He does?

I know in myself that my speaking and praying in tongues is Not useless, pointless and that it indeed is very real and that it is from God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You, of course, as all of us, believe what you do, but I strongly suggest you be careful about in denying another person's testimony even though you have not experienced and doubt it authenticity. The final judgement is God's any case based on complete and absolute knowledge of each person. Who among us has that like He does?

I know in myself that my speaking and praying in tongues is Not useless, pointless and that it indeed is very real and that it is from God.

What is testimony without cross examination? If someone says something illogical or irrational is that really testimony? If man should say that he jumped off a building and flew to the ground, I can't say that I don't believe him? Even if he had divine aide and his landing was a miracle, can I believe him without corroborating eyewitness testimony?

If a man should claim to have spoken an unknown language, who can agree with him? How does he know it is a language if he doesn't understand it? Simply claiming it is a language is an empty claim. It means nothing.

Do you think me evil for speaking the truth?

 

[amadeus]

What is testimony without cross examination? If someone says something illogical or irrational is that really testimony? If man should say that he jumped off a building and flew to the ground, I can't say that I don't believe him? Even if he had divine aide and his landing was a miracle, can I believe him without corroborating eyewitness testimony?

If a man should claim to have spoken an unknown language, who can agree with him? How does he know it is a language if he doesn't understand it? Simply claiming it is a language is an empty claim. It means nothing.

Do you think me evil for speaking the truth?

Truth? That is Jesus, right? How clearly do you see his face? Do you already have a "face to face" vision with no dark places or dimness or any such thing? Are you an overcomer who has completely overcome all that does or would stand between you and God today? Are you ever tempted to sin? Do you ever succumb to any of those temptations? Don't answer those questions to me. Just consider them within yourself.

Within the forum rules I guess you can say whatever you want. As to your doubts or anyone else's about my testimonies, that is to be expected within people. I do wish that only unbelievers had doubts. I wish I had I never had any doubts about people who confess themselves to be followers of Christ.
I cannot prove to any one's satisfaction what I hold by faith or by knowledge given to me by God... unless the person has the same thing or a similar experience or gift from God. I am not God.

I really try to pay attention to what each person speaking to me is saying without throwing all out because of my own biases or beliefs. Do not sincere believers still have biases that interfere with their own walks with God?

I strive to refuse to throw out someone's word s simply because they carry a label such as Baptist or Trinitarian or Mormon or Jehovah's Witness or Pentecostal or tongue talker or Catholic.

Each morning [7 days a week] in my own personal communion with God I strive to drop down to nothing absolutely... including even my strongest beliefs about the details of God and the things of God. This is me going to the "lowest room". From there I am open to God for Him to add to, correct, or reaffirm what I had before.

Will cross examination of another person get me to a better place than encountered already through my time in the Bible and with God? Only if I am also open to hear anything of or from God in what the person is saying in response. I do not routinely cross examine a person simply because he supports something new or different than I do or something outside of my personal experience. If he really wants to discuss I really try to listen openly without biases. Can I always do it? Sometimes biting my tongue is required.

As to my unknown language... why would their interpretations be so different than the parables spoken by Jesus which we read in our Bibles? Why do we bother to read about something with which we have had no personal first hand experience with the physical 5 senses? Who among us was alive in our flesh 2,000 years ago? Is that so different than doubting another believer? Why, for do we not have experiences with God today in our own hearts?

All of us live for God by faith, which is what...?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb. 11:1 No court room procedures or scientific method in there that I can see.

Why can a person have faith in what he reads in his Bible or in the Words or parables of Jesus but not in an unknown tongue message from God today? Where is the proof of our Bibles and Jesus, if not in our hearts? Ask an unbeliever why he does not believe what you believe? Will you stop believing because he denies your faith?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I cannot prove to any one's satisfaction what I hold by faith or by knowledge given to me by God... unless the person has the same thing or a similar experience or gift from God. I am not God.

I believe in personal miracles. I believe that God can and does demonstrate both his existence and his power to single individuals one at a time, if need be. I get that. It has happened to me.

That is on the one hand. On the other hand, personal miracles are just that -- personal. A personal miracle is tailored to a specific person in ways uniquely convincing to that particular individual. And by its very nature, the miracle or miracles will be unconvincing to someone else.

For instance, suppose the Holy Spirit instructs a man to look for another man in a red coat and when he finds the man, to give him $100.00, and to tell that man that God answers prayer. This personal miracle will certainly be convincing to the man in the red coat. And Who am I to say it didn't happen? I never question or cross examine the personal miracles of other people. I don't.

The talk is concerned with the gift of tongues and asks the question whether or not it is for everyone. I entered this discussion because I have studied the issue for many years and think I know what the Bible has to say about the gift of tongues. And I have talked with many charismatics over the years and have discovered that they were misled by charismatic teachers concerning the meaning of various passages. It would be unloving for me if I didn't attempt to correct the various misunderstandings people share.

But this requires me to bring people to the passages and explain why the charismatic/Pentecostal interpretations are incorrect. I am not above correction myself. I am willing to be corrected. But only if someone gives me good reason to change my mind about a particular interpretation. When it comes to Bible interpretation, experiences are NOT proof. Experiences, like the Bible, must also be interpreted. A man may have experiences, but he may also misinterpret or misunderstand them.

Do you understand? We don't ever take our experiences at face value. We always attempt to understand what they mean. So when someone offers me his experience as proof, all I can do is critique the meaning of his experience. Anyone who claims to be praying in an unknown language is mistaken because the idea is absurd. The concept is meaningless, like a square circle. You don't have an unknown language.

As to my unknown language... why would their interpretations be so different than the parables spoken by Jesus which we read in our Bibles? Why do we bother to read about something with which we have had no personal first hand experience with the physical 5 senses? Who among us was alive in our flesh 2,000 years ago? Is that so different than doubting another believer? Why, for do we not have experiences with God today in our own hearts?

Jesus, the Apostles, and the Bible in general NEVER expect us to believe something without proof. Faith isn't believing a truth claim without proof. Jesus expects us to believe eyewitness testimony. To demonstrate this would take too long here, but all you need to do is perform a word search in the Gospel of John for words like "witness" , "testify", "testimony", "seen", "heard" , "show", and "manifested."

Consider also, the opening three verses of John's letter, "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ." John expects his readers to believe his testimony because he was an eye-witness of what happened during Jesus ministry.

All of us live for God by faith, which is what...?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb. 11:1 No court room procedures or scientific method in there that I can see.

On the contrary, Paul's point is predicated on actual real proof. What is being proven? God's opinion that a particular person has been justified. And what is the proof that God has justified that particular individual? The person's faith. The thing unseen is justification. Faith is the evidence of the unseen state of being justified.

Why can a person have faith in what he reads in his Bible or in the Words or parables of Jesus but not in an unknown tongue message from God today?

Because such a thing doesn't exist.

 

[amadeus]

I believe in personal miracles. I believe that God can and does demonstrate both his existence and his power to single individuals one at a time, if need be. I get that. It has happened to me.

That is on the one hand. On the other hand, personal miracles are just that -- personal. A personal miracle is tailored to a specific person in ways uniquely convincing to that particular individual. And by its very nature, the miracle or miracles will be unconvincing to someone else.

For instance, suppose the Holy Spirit instructs a man to look for another man in a red coat and when he finds the man, to give him $100.00, and to tell that man that God answers prayer. This personal miracle will certainly be convincing to the man in the red coat. And Who am I to say it didn't happen? I never question or cross examine the personal miracles of other people. I don't.

The talk is concerned with the gift of tongues and asks the question whether or not it is for everyone. I entered this discussion because I have studied the issue for many years and think I know what the Bible has to say about the gift of tongues. And I have talked with many charismatics over the years and have discovered that they were misled by charismatic teachers concerning the meaning of various passages. It would be unloving for me if I didn't attempt to correct the various misunderstandings people share.

But this requires me to bring people to the passages and explain why the charismatic/Pentecostal interpretations are incorrect. I am not above correction myself. I am willing to be corrected. But only if someone gives me good reason to change my mind about a particular interpretation. When it comes to Bible interpretation, experiences are NOT proof. Experiences, like the Bible, must also be interpreted. A man may have experiences, but he may also misinterpret or misunderstand them.

Do you understand? We don't ever take our experiences at face value. We always attempt to understand what they mean. So when someone offers me his experience as proof, all I can do is critique the meaning of his experience. Anyone who claims to be praying in an unknown language is mistaken because the idea is absurd. The concept is meaningless, like a square circle. You don't have an unknown language.



Jesus, the Apostles, and the Bible in general NEVER expect us to believe something without proof. Faith isn't believing a truth claim without proof. Jesus expects us to believe eyewitness testimony. To demonstrate this would take too long here, but all you need to do is perform a word search in the Gospel of John for words like "witness" , "testify", "testimony", "seen", "heard" , "show", and "manifested."

Consider also, the opening three verses of John's letter, "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ." John expects his readers to believe his testimony because he was an eye-witness of what happened during Jesus ministry.


On the contrary, Paul's point is predicated on actual real proof. What is being proven? God's opinion that a particular person has been justified. And what is the proof that God has justified that particular individual? The person's faith. The thing unseen is justification. Faith is the evidence of the unseen state of being justified.

Because such a thing doesn't exist.

I know what I have in this case if anyone but God does. You don't believe my witness or testimony with regard to my gift and the way I communicate with God? I will not argue the point nor will I exchange scriptures with you to prove anything. Having had this gift for many years I have previously been questioned about it within as well as outside of the scripture studying the subject so that I might know what people on the "other" side were saying. I did not study for their benefit but for my own.

I do not and never have said that everyone is able to speak in tongues or must speak in tongues. I say that I do and that I am not the only one. Because there are false ones is not evidence that there are no real ones.

Does God exist? Are there any false gods?