Tongues

[Grailhunter]

Truth? That is Jesus, right? How clearly do you see his face? Do you already have a "face to face" vision with no dark places or dimness or any such thing? Are you an overcomer who has completely overcome all that does or would stand between you and God today? Are you ever tempted to sin? Do you ever succumb to any of those temptations? Don't answer those questions to me. Just consider them within yourself.

Within the forum rules I guess you can say whatever you want. As to your doubts or anyone else's about my testimonies, that is to be expected within people. I do wish that only unbelievers had doubts. I wish I had I never had any doubts about people who confess themselves to be followers of Christ.
I cannot prove to any one's satisfaction what I hold by faith or by knowledge given to me by God... unless the person has the same thing or a similar experience or gift from God. I am not God.

I really try to pay attention to what each person speaking to me is saying without throwing all out because of my own biases or beliefs. Do not sincere believers still have biases that interfere with their own walks with God?

I strive to refuse to throw out someone's word s simply because they carry a label such as Baptist or Trinitarian or Mormon or Jehovah's Witness or Pentecostal or tongue talker or Catholic.

Each morning [7 days a week] in my own personal communion with God I strive to drop down to nothing absolutely... including even my strongest beliefs about the details of God and the things of God. This is me going to the "lowest room". From there I am open to God for Him to add to, correct, or reaffirm what I had before.

Will cross examination of another person get me to a better place than encountered already through my time in the Bible and with God? Only if I am also open to hear anything of or from God in what the person is saying in response. I do not routinely cross examine a person simply because he supports something new or different than I do or something outside of my personal experience. If he really wants to discuss I really try to listen openly without biases. Can I always do it? Sometimes biting my tongue is required.

As to my unknown language... why would their interpretations be so different than the parables spoken by Jesus which we read in our Bibles? Why do we bother to read about something with which we have had no personal first hand experience with the physical 5 senses? Who among us was alive in our flesh 2,000 years ago? Is that so different than doubting another believer? Why, for do we not have experiences with God today in our own hearts?

All of us live for God by faith, which is what...?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb. 11:1 No court room procedures or scientific method in there that I can see.

Why can a person have faith in what he reads in his Bible or in the Words or parables of Jesus but not in an unknown tongue message from God today? Where is the proof of our Bibles and Jesus, if not in our hearts? Ask an unbeliever why he does not believe what you believe? Will you stop believing because he denies your faith?

This why some will not share testimonies.

I enjoy your testimonies.

And I share but only to a point.....those precious divine moment I do not feel comfortable sharing because I am not going to let someone take a dump on precious memories. Christ said it best....Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine.

 

[amadeus]

This why some will not share testimonies.

I enjoy your testimonies.

And I share but only to a point.....those precious divine moment I do not feel comfortable sharing because I am not going to let someone take a dump on precious memories. Christ said it best....Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine.

Even so! Who are the dogs or swine and who is speaking with the Word of God as did Balaam's donkey?

I do not speak in testimony of my own experiences with and from God lightly... ever...

I did it in this case as God, I believe, led me to do so. I did not do it to prove to anyone that I was right and someone else was wrong. Only God can give anyone any real increase. He may do it through my testimony or not.

Sometimes people need hear the testimonies of others in spite of the expressed doubts of others. Encouragement is needed sometimes on things like this even as encouragement may be needed by people who are asked for prayer about illnesses or difficult situations.

Why did God inspire the Bible writer to include the doubts of Thomas and the words of Jesus with regard to those doubts? Is that really so different than what is happening here? I do not believe so.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I know what I have in this case if anyone but God does. You don't believe my witness or testimony with regard to my gift and the way I communicate with God? I will not argue the point nor will I exchange scriptures with you to prove anything. Having had this gift for many years I have previously been questioned about it within as well as outside of the scripture studied the subject so that I might know what people on the "other" side were saying. I did not study for their benefit but for my own.

I do not and never have said that everyone is able to speak in tongues or must speak in tongues. I say that I do and that I am not the only one. Because there are false ones is not evidence that there are no real ones.

Does God exist? Are there any false gods?

I'm not doubting or questioning the fact that you have a gift. I believe in the supernatural and that miracles happen today. And I have no reason to doubt your testimony. I'm simply saying that there is no such thing as a "prayer language" especially one that is an unknown language. And I'm saying that the Biblical gift of tongues takes place when someone speaks a message in their native tongue, while foreigners hear it in other languages.

In charismatic circles, we see an activity that purports to be the gift of tongues but isn't. One person will stand up and speak inarticulate sounds. Then another person will stand up and say, "The Lord has spoken and he says . . ." what-have-you. This is NOT the gift of tongues in action. As I say, the gift of tongues is NOT speaking an unknown foreign language. Not only this, but the so-called gift of interpretation is NOT the ability of one person to translate the inarticulate sounds of someone else.

 

[amadeus]

I'm not doubting or questioning the fact that you have a gift. I believe in the supernatural and that miracles happen today. And I have no reason to doubt your testimony. I'm simply saying that there is no such thing as a "prayer language" especially one that is an unknown language. And I'm saying that the Biblical gift of tongues takes place when someone speaks a message in their native tongue, while foreigners hear it in other languages.

In charismatic circles, we see an activity that purports to be the gift of tongues but isn't. One person will stand up and speak inarticulate sounds. Then another person will stand up and say, "The Lord has spoken and he says . . ." what-have-you. This is NOT the gift of tongues in action. As I say, the gift of tongues is NOT speaking an unknown foreign language. Not only this, but the so-called gift of interpretation is NOT the ability of one person to translate the inarticulate sounds of someone else.

I don't really want to pursue this, but I believe I need to add and clarify a couple of points here:

One is that my wife has a different gift of tongues from God than my own. In hers she has been given messages in tongues from God at times and at other times she has been given the interpretations of such messages into English.
I could testify further and provide examples, but I will not...

The other one is that what I have is a "prayer language" in which I talk to God. I call it a language, because I do use it to communicate with God daily. The purpose of language is to communicate and that is what I do. Similarly I also on my own in my flesh learned to speak both Spanish and German. Those were not direct gifts, but are abilities I developed through study and practice. Those I use to read my Bibles and in the past I used them to communicate with people.

You may disbelieve these things for whatever reason, but considering where I am must believe that you are in error. The final call on that is with God.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I don't believe you. Anyone can claim to speak an "unknown language" but the claim is empty, just as Paul himself indicated. He argued that the purpose of language was to communicate. He gently attempted to explain to you that any claim to speak an unknown language was as absurd as a horn without a sound or a bell without a ring.
This is incorrect. Paul argued against this kind of thinking. He taught us to recognize the genuine from the fake. One way to recognize the genuine, he says, is to understand that, "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also." In other words, if you think you are speaking mysteries in the spirit, you aren't.

You seem to have misunderstood Paul's argument. He isn't suggesting that the Corinthians continue to speak publicly in unknown languages as long as an interpreter is standing ready to translate. No. He is attempting to curtail the behavior altogether. He not only wants the utterance to be interpreted, he wants the speaker to interpret it himself. The one speaking the utterance needs to give the interpretation. He must interpret it. 1 Corinthians 14:5 Thus Paul declares that speaking or praying in an unknown language is useless, pointless, and not actually a real thing.

Obviously you are merely parroting what your mentors have taught you instead of doing a proper exegesis of 1 Corinthians 14 for yourself. I have done a very comprehensive study of 1 Corinthians 14, plus studied what many of the church fathers said about it, and other commentaries including that of John Calvin on the chapter. Therefore I am in absolutely no doubt that Paul supported tongues in private devotions before God, YET IN THE CHURCH, he would rather prophesy or have an interpreter to interpret (not translate) what is being said in tongues. You have also missed that Paul said that the person speaking in tongues is "giving thanks well". Does that sound that Paul is saying that it is pointless? Absolutely not. It's about time you stopped believing your mentors' lies and started studying the Bible for yourself.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Obviously you are merely parroting what your mentors have taught you instead of doing a proper exegesis of 1 Corinthians 14 for yourself. I have done a very comprehensive study of 1 Corinthians 14, plus studied what many of the church fathers said about it, and other commentaries including that of John Calvin on the chapter. Therefore I am in absolutely no doubt that Paul supported tongues in private devotions before God, YET IN THE CHURCH, he would rather prophesy or have an interpreter to interpret (not translate) what is being said in tongues. You have also missed that Paul said that the person speaking in tongues is "giving thanks well". Does that sound that Paul is saying that it is pointless? Absolutely not. It's about time you stopped believing your mentors' lies and started studying the Bible for yourself.

Why not make an argument from the text instead of attacking me as a person? Those who attack the person rather than the argument usually have a weak or non-existent argument.

Paul is not serious when he says, "You are giving thanks well enough . . ." In this chapter, Paul is giving voice to the opinions of those in Corinth, who misunderstand the gift of tongues. He is speaking with tongue in cheek, attempting to draw a contrast between their view and his view.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I don't really want to pursue this, but I believe I need to add and clarify a couple of points here:

One is that my wife has a different gift of tongues from God than my own. In hers she has been given messages in tongues from God at times and at other times she has been given the interpretations of such messages into English.
I could testify further and provide examples, but I will not...

The other one is that what I have is a "prayer language" in which I talk to God. I call it a language, because I do use it to communicate with God daily. The purpose of language is to communicate and that is what I do. Similarly I also on my own in my flesh learned to speak both Spanish and German. Those were not direct gifts, but are abilities I developed through study and practice. Those I use to read my Bibles and in the past I used them to communicate with people.

You may disbelieve these things for whatever reason, but considering where I am must believe that you are in error. The final call on that is with God.

Forgive me for pointing out why it isn't possible to use personal experience to defend an interpretation of a Biblical passage. We both agree that it can and usually does lead to hurt feelings. In the future, I will simply ignore posts in which personal experience is offered as a defense of an interpretation.

Please accept my humble apology.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Why not make an argument from the text instead of attacking me as a person? Those who attack the person rather than the argument usually have a weak or non-existent argument.

Paul is not serious when he says, "You are giving thanks well enough . . ." In this chapter, Paul is giving voice to the opinions of those in Corinth, who misunderstand the gift of tongues. He is speaking with tongue in cheek, attempting to draw a contrast between their view and his view.

In all our exchanges I have been coming from the standpoint of Scripture. It is important to keep to what Paul is actually saying in the text of the chapter, not to second-guess what Paul might be thinking when he said it. Telling you that you are believing in lies is not attacking you. It is merely commenting on the information that you are relying on from those who are teaching you the false doctrine.
Because I'm the head of my house and have decreed that whatever my wife says shall be done, I have to go and do the shopping on her instructions, so I will come back later and give you my list of what Paul actually says about tongues.

 

[amadeus]

Forgive me for pointing out why it isn't possible to use personal experience to defend an interpretation of a Biblical passage. We both agree that it can and usually does lead to hurt feelings. In the future, I will simply ignore posts in which personal experience is offered as a defense of an interpretation.

Please accept my humble apology.

We are barely communicating, and perhaps not at all, on what I believe is most important.

You have decided that what you believe is to you that which is correct. You are hardly alone in that. Without clearer communication I cannot be sure an apology is in order. I do appreciate your intention.

So then I will leave this in the hands of the One who knows and ponders each heart.

 

[Berserk]

<<<The gifts of prophesy and tongues ARE indeed for every believer.>>>

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Areall teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? (1 Cor.12)

Tong
R4648

You miss the point: Paul is simply saying, "Look around you and notice that not everyone fulfills their spiritual potential:
"But strive for the greater gifts (e. g. prophecy and tongues---12:31) because (by implication) they are for every believer. Thus, Paul continues: "Strive for the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy (14:1). So prophecy is the greatest gifts and tongues, if interpreted is just as great a gift as prophecy (so14:5)." So when Paul assures us that "you can all prophesy" and reinforces this teaching by expressing the godly desire, "I want you all to speak in tongues...and prophesy (14:5), he is illustrating why we must all "strive for the best spiritual gifts" which are available to all. Two of the great lies of anti-charismatics are (1) that tongues are the least of the gifts and (2) that the "best gifts" are not for every believer.

 

[Paul Christensen]

In all our exchanges I have been coming from the standpoint of Scripture. It is important to keep to what Paul is actually saying in the text of the chapter, not to second-guess what Paul might be thinking when he said it. Telling you that you are believing in lies is not attacking you. It is merely commenting on the information that you are relying on from those who are teaching you the false doctrine.
Because I'm the head of my house and have decreed that whatever my wife says shall be done, I have to go and do the shopping on her instructions, so I will come back later and give you my list of what Paul actually says about tongues.

Now that I have returned from our shopping expedition in the wind and rain, I will now list, from 1 Corinthians 14, what Paul actually says about tongues.

Just a useless noise not accompanied by love (1 Corinthians 13:1)
Speaks to God (14:2)
Not to men (14:2)
Mysteries in the Spirit (14:2)
Builds up the believer (14:4), the Greek word means in terms of building a house.
Paul's personal desire that all speak in tongues
Tongues takes second place to prophecy in church meetings
No profit speaking tongues in church meetings
Tongues is a language spoken somewhere in the world
A person speaking in tongues in church should pray for the interpretation
Praying in a tongue is his spirit praying but his understanding is unfruitful
Paul will pray with the spirit (tongues) and pray in his normal language (understanding)
Tongues is blessing with the Spirit
Tongues is giving thanks well (in other words, nothing wrong with it)
Paul thanks God he speaks in tongues more than them all
BUT WHEN HE ATTENDS CHURCH, he would rather say things that everyone understands
Tongues is a sign for unbelievers but even with the sign they still will not listen to the Holy Spirit
If everyone in church speaks in tongues, ignorant or uninformed ones will think they are out of their minds
Giving an utterance in tongues along with interpretation is a normal component in the list of things that should happen in a church meeting.
Let just two or three speak in tongues and one interpret
If there is no interpreter let the tongues speaker keep silent in the church
If he wants to speak in tongues, speak it to himself and to God (in his private devotions at home)
Do not forbid to speak in tongues.

These are what Paul says about the practice of the gift of tongues. When I compare this list and what you have said about it, I see no comparison at all. It seems that you are talking about a different Paul who said different things to what I have listed here straight out of 1 Corinthians 14. All I have done here is extract out what Paul ACTUALLY said, not what some people think he might have said. Anyone who says that Paul said anything different is actually misrepresenting Paul by adding to what he said, and that is adding to the inspired Word of God, which carries a penalty. Are you sure that your view of the Holy Spirit is actually the Holy Spirit of the New Testament?

 

[Paul Christensen]

You miss the point: Paul is simply saying, "Look around you and notice that not everyone fulfills their spiritual potential:
"But strive for the greater gifts (e. g. prophecy and tongues---12:31) because (by implication) they are for every believer. Thus, Paul continues: "Strive for the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy (14:1). So prophecy is the greatest gifts and tongues, if interpreted is just as great a gift as prophecy (so14:5)." So when Paul assures us that "you can all prophesy" and reinforces this teaching by expressing the godly desire, "I want you all to speak in tongues...and prophesy (14:5), he is illustrating why we must all "strive for the best spiritual gifts" which are available to all. Two of the great lies of anti-charismatics are (1) that tongues are the least of the gifts and (2) that the "best gifts" are not for every believer.

I agree.
I concur that prophecy is to be preferred over tongues in the church meeting, therefore it is the best gift in that context because, as Paul says, it is better to speak two words that people can understand than ten thousand words in a language that no one understands. But Paul says that he speaks in tongues more then all of them. Where does he do that? Obviously not in church meetings. Anyone with half a brain would know that he would do his speaking in tongues during his private devotions where God is the only listener. Paul goes on to say that he would that they all spoke in tongues in their private prayer times, and that in the church all are able to prophesy. I am just amazed that the anti-Charismatics suspend basic language comprehension when it comes to their opposition to tongues. It reminds me of the Jewish leaders when hearing Stephen, and in their rage, suspended all decency and self-control, dragged him out and stoned him in a frenzy of blind rage. This is what a religious spirit will do. To defend false doctrine, a religious spirit will be blind to plain language and make Bible passages say totally different to what they actual say, when those Bible passages conflict with their false religious views.

Because I have good language comprehension skills, I can see plainly that Paul prays in tongues along with his natural language in his private prayer times with God, and he encourages others to do the same. He sees that tongues is superior to prophecy in his private devotions because what point is there in prophesying to God? But tongues is direct communication to God in the Spirit. Paul says that his spirit prays and he blesses God with his spirit. He also sings hymns, psalms, and songs in his natural language, and also sings with his spirit in tongues. He loves his private prayer times with God and uses his prayer language extensively. Even a nine year old kid with appropriate elementary school comprehension skills can work that out! Either anti-Charismatics have comprehension skills inferior to eight and nine year old elementary school children, or the religious spirits that control them blind them to the plain language of 1 Corinthians 14.

Either a person is filled with the Holy Spirit, or another spirit. I believe that a person filled with the Holy Spirit will be faithful to God's Word AS IT IS WRITTEN in the text, and not a twisted, forced interpretation that has little to do with the text as it is written.

 

[Grailhunter]

Even so! Who are the dogs or swine and who is speaking with the Word of God as did Balaam's donkey?

I do not speak in testimony of my own experiences with and from God lightly... ever...

I did it in this case as God, I believe, led me to do so. I did not do it to prove to anyone that I was right and someone else was wrong. Only God can give anyone any real increase. He may do it through my testimony or not.

Sometimes people need hear the testimonies of others in spite of the expressed doubts of others. Encouragement is needed sometimes on things like this even as encouragement may be needed by people who are asked for prayer about illnesses or difficult situations.

Why did God inspire the Bible writer to include the doubts of Thomas and the words of Jesus with regard to those doubts? Is that really so different than what is happening here? I do not believe so.

Oh ya I am glad you are sharing.
Then again some people just do not believe.
And those very precious events you just have to be careful with who you share with.

 

[Tong2020]

You miss the point: Paul is simply saying, "Look around you and notice that not everyone fulfills their spiritual potential:
"But strive for the greater gifts (e. g. prophecy and tongues---12:31) because (by implication) they are for every believer. Thus, Paul continues: "Strive for the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy (14:1). So prophecy is the greatest gifts and tongues, if interpreted is just as great a gift as prophecy (so14:5)." So when Paul assures us that "you can all prophesy" and reinforces this teaching by expressing the godly desire, "I want you all to speak in tongues...and prophesy (14:5), he is illustrating why we must all "strive for the best spiritual gifts" which are available to all. Two of the great lies of anti-charismatics are (1) that tongues are the least of the gifts and (2) that the "best gifts" are not for every believer.

Got your point of view. But here’s the view that I take.

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

And here’s more of the same thought:

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Areall teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

The Spirit distributes gifts to each one individually as He wills. At least per the above scriptures, it shows me that He does not give to all, the gift of tongues, nor to all, the gift of prophesy, and so on.

Tong
R4654

 

[Truman]

When I was water-baptized, I was pressured to speak in tongues. I couldn't. Things ended up badly for me there, though it was partly my fault. I was 17, severely traumatized and demonized from high-dose, compacted, and long-term L.S.D. use.
I was living in a commune-type setting. My condition wasn't spiritually-discerned. My environment was highly religiously-structured.
Tongues were common, but the true apostolic discipling I needed wasn't available. Though my understanding of the situation is incomplete.

 

[Paul Christensen]

When I was water-baptized, I was pressured to speak in tongues. I couldn't. Things ended up badly for me there, though it was partly my fault. I was 17, severely traumatized and demonized from high-dose, compacted, and long-term L.S.D. use.
I was living in a commune-type setting. My condition wasn't spiritually-discerned. My environment was highly religiously-structured.
Tongues were common, but the true apostolic discipling I needed wasn't available. Though my understanding of the situation is incomplete.

It is sad, but often happens when leaders who think they have "arrived" with a bit of Bible training but no professional mental health qualifications. When I did a paper in Pastoral Care as part of my initial theological training, depression and drug dependence issues were prominent components. My major was Crisis Counselling, and my practicum was taking on a client using Carl Rogers' counselling techniques. I achieved an A for that paper. The woman whom I counselled for two hours weekly over six months was so help and impressed that she used the same method for counselling others in her church. Neil Anderson has written an excellent book called "Finding Hope Again" in which he expertly shows how to diagnose whether a person needs counselling, medical intervention, or spiritual assistance. He says that there are differences, and mistaking a medical issue issue causing a mental health problem for a spiritual problem can cause much harm and damage.

I just wonder if the damage you did to yourself through your LSD use, required more than just "casting out a demon", but medical treatment may have been better to stabilise your mental condition, with intensive counselling and support from a mental health professional. It is possible for untrained religious leaders to be so "heavenly minded" that they are no earthly use. I am not saying that there are some mental health issues are not of spiritual origin, but good diagnosis by a trained person in both mental health and Divinity (pastoral care) would discover which treatment would be most appropriate.

Also, when I am asked to assist someone to receive the gift of tongues, I always ask if the person is absolutely sure that this is God's will for him. If he is not sure, I tell him to go away, spend time in prayer and in the Word, to make sure that he really does know God's will in the matter. I refuse to allow my will to be forced on someone else. I may value tongues as a wonderful gift which I think that everyone should have, but I put my own will aside to allow the person to come to their own decision of what is God's will for them. Someone who is pressure to speak in tongues will give it up after a while even if they start speaking a few words. Those words will just come from the mouth to please the people who are pressuring him, rather than from his heart because he knows that this is what God wants him to have and knows that it has come from Jesus through the agency of the Holy Spirit. Here are my steps of faith to receive the gift of tongues:

1. Know beyond doubt that it is God's will for you.
2. Ask for the gift according to the Scripture.
3. Receive the gift into your spirit.
4. Step out in faith and start speaking a language you have never learned.

I always take the person to a quiet spot, away from any distractions, such as loud music, yelling through microphones, other people interfering with their crackpot ideas. I sit them down with a cup of coffee, explain what tongues is for, and the steps of faith in order to receive the gift. I then take them through those Scriptural steps, and then encourage them to start putting words and sentences together. It is at that point where I am depending on the Holy Spirit to come to the party to give them the language. Every time I have done this for a person, that person has come out with a unique language. On one occasion the language was so wonderful and expressive that I am my two friends who were praying for him almost fell on the floor laughing with joy. When a person receives the real gift of tongues, it is a release of the spirit, and a flow from the person's heart in prayer to God. I always am filled with joy when it happens and get the giggles. That's how I know that what the person has received is real. Joy is one of the fruit of the Spirit.

But when a crowd of people are gathered around a poor victim at the front of a noisy, hyped up meeting, with loud music and people yelling through microphones, and half the group saying "hold on" and the other half saying "let go" I am not surprised that the victim either doesn't get anything, or comes out with a counterfeit copy of someone shouting their own tongues into the unfortunate victim's ears.

 

[Truman]

It is sad, but often happens when leaders who think they have "arrived" with a bit of Bible training but no professional mental health qualifications. When I did a paper in Pastoral Care as part of my initial theological training, depression and drug dependence issues were prominent components. My major was Crisis Counselling, and my practicum was taking on a client using Carl Rogers' counselling techniques. I achieved an A for that paper. The woman whom I counselled for two hours weekly over six months was so help and impressed that she used the same method for counselling others in her church. Neil Anderson has written an excellent book called "Finding Hope Again" in which he expertly shows how to diagnose whether a person needs counselling, medical intervention, or spiritual assistance. He says that there are differences, and mistaking a medical issue issue causing a mental health problem for a spiritual problem can cause much harm and damage.

I just wonder if the damage you did to yourself through your LSD use, required more than just "casting out a demon", but medical treatment may have been better to stabilise your mental condition, with intensive counselling and support from a mental health professional. It is possible for untrained religious leaders to be so "heavenly minded" that they are no earthly use. I am not saying that there are some mental health issues are not of spiritual origin, but good diagnosis by a trained person in both mental health and Divinity (pastoral care) would discover which treatment would be most appropriate.

Also, when I am asked to assist someone to receive the gift of tongues, I always ask if the person is absolutely sure that this is God's will for him. If he is not sure, I tell him to go away, spend time in prayer and in the Word, to make sure that he really does know God's will in the matter. I refuse to allow my will to be forced on someone else. I may value tongues as a wonderful gift which I think that everyone should have, but I put my own will aside to allow the person to come to their own decision of what is God's will for them. Someone who is pressure to speak in tongues will give it up after a while even if they start speaking a few words. Those words will just come from the mouth to please the people who are pressuring him, rather than from his heart because he knows that this is what God wants him to have and knows that it has come from Jesus through the agency of the Holy Spirit. Here are my steps of faith to receive the gift of tongues:

1. Know beyond doubt that it is God's will for you.
2. Ask for the gift according to the Scripture.
3. Receive the gift into your spirit.
4. Step out in faith and start speaking a language you have never learned.

I always take the person to a quiet spot, away from any distractions, such as loud music, yelling through microphones, other people interfering with their crackpot ideas. I sit them down with a cup of coffee, explain what tongues is for, and the steps of faith in order to receive the gift. I then take them through those Scriptural steps, and then encourage them to start putting words and sentences together. It is at that point where I am depending on the Holy Spirit to come to the party to give them the language. Every time I have done this for a person, that person has come out with a unique language. On one occasion the language was so wonderful and expressive that I am my two friends who were praying for him almost fell on the floor laughing with joy. When a person receives the real gift of tongues, it is a release of the spirit, and a flow from the person's heart in prayer to God. I always am filled with joy when it happens and get the giggles. That's how I know that what the person has received is real. Joy is one of the fruit of the Spirit.

But when a crowd of people are gathered around a poor victim at the front of a noisy, hyped up meeting, with loud music and people yelling through microphones, and half the group saying "hold on" and the other half saying "let go" I am not surprised that the victim either doesn't get anything, or comes out with a counterfeit copy of someone shouting their own tongues into the unfortunate victim's ears.

In a nutshell, my life was tragic until I met my Father at the Cambridge Vineyard in July of '94. Some amazing things happened after that. I went from being a lonely, frustrated and depressed musician to leading the Sunday-morning worship team at the local Vineyard plant that I was a part of.
After 3 years, I left because, as it turned out, of my own wounded soul. I was a deeply-wounded person. I've learned to walk in repentance and to forgive, bless, and love. Not that I'm perfect.
I was rejected in the womb, my life didn't go well. During March, 2000, I ended up at Jacob's Well Ministries' "Five Days Of Healing" retreat where the Lord met me powerfully.
The main seminar they teach is Dr. Bruce Thompson's, "The Divine Plumbline." Other teaching included Floyd McClung and Derek Prince. I received the gift of tongues while there.
Afterwards, He left me with this verse: "He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you but to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?" Micah 6:8 - He is gentle and yet severe.
I believe the Lord led me to start this thread; I can always hide under my bed! Lol

 

[CadyandZoe]

In all our exchanges I have been coming from the standpoint of Scripture. It is important to keep to what Paul is actually saying in the text of the chapter, not to second-guess what Paul might be thinking when he said it. Telling you that you are believing in lies is not attacking you. It is merely commenting on the information that you are relying on from those who are teaching you the false doctrine.
Because I'm the head of my house and have decreed that whatever my wife says shall be done, I have to go and do the shopping on her instructions, so I will come back later and give you my list of what Paul actually says about tongues.

I wholeheartedly disagree. First, you made an argument from your own experience, claiming to have hung around Pentecostals for 55 years. So what? All this means is that you have been wrong for 55 years.

Second, you attacked me personally, twice, not only did you assume that I wasn't thinking for myself, you encouraged me to stop listening to my teachers. Only now have you decided to talk about the passage. Whether you like it or not, telling me that I am believing in lies, is an ad hominem (to the man) argument. You said that I can't understand the passage because I hadn't studied it myself; and I can't understand the passage because I am being misled by false teachers; and I can't understand the passage because I don't have experience in such things. Amazingly all three of your assumptions are wrong.

By the way, I am NOT second guessing what Paul said. My understanding of his argument in chapter 14 is based what he said in chapter 7. Maybe you didn't notice what he said there or what it might indicate with regard to his approach?

 

[Truman]

I think the subject of tongues has, is, and will continue to be, one of personal interpretation.
I'm not saying that's how it should be, just how it is.
I think, at this point, agreeing to disagree without being disagreeable fulfills the love commandment.
Unless the involved people enjoy arguing...then I say, "Knock yourselves out!" Sigh.

 

[amadeus]

When I was water-baptized, I was pressured to speak in tongues. I couldn't. Things ended up badly for me there, though it was partly my fault. I was 17, severely traumatized and demonized from high-dose, compacted, and long-term L.S.D. use.
I was living in a commune-type setting. My condition wasn't spiritually-discerned. My environment was highly religiously-structured.
Tongues were common, but the true apostolic discipling I needed wasn't available. Though my understanding of the situation is incomplete.

I hear you loud and clear, my brother!

The very first assembly we attended as non-Catholics pressured us on the tongues as well. My wife started speaking tongues almost immediately. For me with some obstacles between me and God it was not until 6 weeks later. There were a couple of good brothers there, but I could not now include the pastor as one of them.

During those first 6 weeks we attended services regularly, the two of us and our two little toddlers. Our pastor would say to me frequently in front of the whole congregation that if I did not receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, I was going to hell and burn in pain forever. I had never been anything but Catholic and had never before even owned a Bible, much less read one. I did not understand the man and he would not answer my questions, but I presumed it needed to be that way. I was very wrong!

I was reading the Bible furiously to get it all in and at every service I sought the Lord begging for the Holy Ghost.

We learned a whole lot in that place but much of it did not fall into place and become understandable until years later. To this day I still often must bite my tongue when thinking or speaking about that man, we called pastor for about 5 years.