Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine

[Wrangler]

The body sleeps. That’s how you explain that.

Asserting is not refuting.

The evidence I gave is overwhelming to anyone with ears to hear.

Try actually reading it.

I know you didn’t.

Ouch! Actually, I’ve read it many times but it does not state what you are reading into it.

Let’s start by you admitting the verses you cite do not explicitly reject soul sleep; that if one already rejects it, these verses seem to ‘support’ it but there are other equally valid interpretations.

And I almost didn’t notice how you COMPLETELY disregarded the only 2 points I made: Jesus quoting sleep and Judgment Day.

 

[BarneyFife]

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:46)

Their “life” will be in everlasting in punishment.

Simple.

How did you miss this scripture?

Did some false teaching or fleshly wisdom blind you to it?

If someone is punished with final death, isn't that everlasting?

 

[BarneyFife]

Amazing the lengths folks will go to make God out as a hideous, loathsome monster.

Not the God of the Bible. NO WAY!!!

Ezekiel 28:16 : By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Destruction is not endless torment.

destroy
dĭ-stroi′
intransitive verb

To break apart the structure of, render physically unusable, or cause to cease to exist as a distinguishable physical entity:


To put an end to; eliminate.

To render useless or ruin.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Amazing the lengths folks will go to make God out as a hideous, loathsome monster.

Putting unrepenting sinners into everlasting punishment does not make God a hideous, loathsome monster.

It makes him a just God.

Just like when God commanded these things to be done didn’t make him a hideous loathsome monster:

“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” (1 Samuel 15:3)

Now go look up the word EVERLASTING since you’re concerned with definitions…

 

[BarneyFife]

Putting unrepenting sinners into everlasting punishment does not make God a hideous, loathsome monster.

It makes him a just God.

Just like when God commanded these things to be done didn’t make him a hideous loathsome monster:

“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” (1 Samuel 15:3)

Now go look up the word EVERLASTING since you’re concerned with definitions…

Comparing killing to endless torture is hardly an answer to the argument.

Words like "forever" and "eternal" are not always literal in the Bible. You might want to look that up. It's been covered in this thread already, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Comparing killing to endless torture is hardly an answer to the argument.

Words like "forever" and "eternal" are not always literal in the Bible. You might want to look that up. It's been covered in this thread already, I'm pretty sure.

This is ridiculous.

If you’re saved and secure in your faith, why do you care what happens to unrepentant sinners?

And why try to explain why “everlasting punishment” isn’t really everlasting punishment if it does not concern you?

I perceive that you have over studied the matter to the point of error.

“Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?” (Ecclesiastes 7:16)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jer. 4:23-26;
This is a depiction of the earth, the entire planet after the plagues, after Christ takes His bride home, after all the wicked are killed by the brightness of Christ's coming. Other confirming texts which also speak to complete destruction of the earth are Jeremiah 25:15-38. That chapter begins with his judgements against Israel, but the prophet escalates the vision to encompass all nations.

Prophesy is of course fulfilled first on ancient Israel and her enemies, but when she herself becomes an enemy of God by her disobedience, then he uses her experiences to teach successive generations about his displeasure and the punishments accordingly meted out to her. Everything then becomes pictorial of the future in the big picture.

I am not sure of your interpretation of “Babylon the great”, but original Babylon is a type for this world’s empire of false worship. Revelation tells us that she is a “great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth”. (Revelation 17:18) A power that holds dominion over other kingdoms is an empire. This is satan’s empire…the means by which he controls the worship of those who dwell on the earth, offering mankind whatever they desire to satisfy their inherent need to worship. It will always be offensive to God, no matter how much they love it or how they try to hide the disgusting origins of their beliefs and practices.

When the Bible speaks of God’s people going into captivity to ancient Babylon, it relates to Christendom and how God’s people today became captives to this part of Babylon the great. Allowing all manner of God-dishonoring doctrines to creep in and make their worship something detestable to God. But like the ancient Jews, God promised that a faithful remnant would come out of Babylon to rebuild the city representing God’s worship on earth, along with its Temple and a restoration of true worship. This promise was fulfilled in ancient times, and will also be fulfilled today.

We both see the same prophesies but interpret them differently.

Ezek. 28:18, 19; speaks of the final destruction of Satan.

Yes, but when will that final destruction come?
Revelation 12:7-12 sees a war in heaven take place and satan and his hordes are cast down to the earth to wreak as much havoc as they can before they are imprisoned. They have a limited time to try and take as many humans down with them as possible, but this is said to take place when Christ is granted his Kingdom authority. This, I believe coincides with the “time of the end” when all the features of the sign that Jesus gave to indicate his “presence” would be in evidence. It’s the very reason for all the woes we are seeing as the “day of Jehovah” draws closer.

There is joy in heaven at being rid of these rebels, but ‘woe for the earth” because now we see an increase in wickedness, leading up to satan’s imprisonment.

At the battle of Armageddon, all those whom satan was able to deceive into opposing Jehovah, will be consigned to his final destination…”the lake of fire”. (Matthew 25:41) Never to be seen again. We see the “goats” consigned to the place reserved for satan and his minions, but satan will only go there when God is finished with hm.

Revelation 20:1-3 we see satan bound and thrown into a bottomless pit for 1,000 years. So when does this occur and when does his release take place? I cannot follow your timeline at all.

Mal. 4:1... Of the wicked...

Yes. All those whom the devil is able to mislead…..but not a single one of Jesus’ sheep will be among them. Why? Because he knows those who belong to him, and he has prepared them for these troubled times that we are now experiencing. He told us to “keep on the watch” (Matthew 24:43-44) and that is what we have done, remaining no part of this world that is crumbling before our very eyes.

1 Cor. 6:2, 3; streaks of the 1000 year periods during which the righteous rule with Christ in heaven and they take part, as witnesses in a court case, in the judgement against the fallen angels and against fallen and sinful humanity. All shall be discussed and disclosed until the remains no doubts or questions as to how God handled the great controversy of the rebellion against His government.

I cannot see this at all. Christ has already made that judgment and has consigned Stan and his demons to the abyss during the 1,000 years of the Kingdom’s reign. All precedents have been set already so that the 1000 years will see the restoration of the paradise that mankind originally lost.
The 1000 years is when the general resurrection of the dead takes place and are educated in Jehovah’s ways. The final test, when satan is released, will see only those faithful to God without wavering survive that final destruction of satan and all who follow him into complete and utter annihilation forever.
Then and only then will the issue of Jehovah’s rightful sovereignty be established so as never to be challenged by free willed beings again….not in heaven or on earth.

Rev. 20; 21:1-5.

Those chosen for heavenly rulership will judge those in heaven and on earth during those 1000 years whilst satan is out of commission, unable to interfere with God’s rehabilitation of this earth and mankind. During that time all things will be brought back into alignment with God’s first purpose…to have a perfect race of obedient servants, possessed of his moral attributes to act as caretakers of his precious creation. Is this an unwilling servitude? No way! It is a joy and a privilege to be entrusted with such a joyful task.

Revelation 21 sees the kingdom doing what it was designed to do…..to bring us back to the beginning with all the issues raised by the devil in Eden completely addressed, settled and put away forever. We can then get on with life as it should have been enjoyed all along…..a life we have never experienced because it was taken away before we even had a chance to enjoy it.
There is much I believe to look forward to.

 

[Enoch111]

Words like "forever" and "eternal" are not always literal in the Bible. You might want to look that up.

Finding more excuses to believe unbiblical nonsense. When will the insanity stop? Also, please note that all denials of eternal Hell are ultimately from Satan. So you are simply telling people what Satan wants them to hear.

It is not our job to reinterpret Scripture in order to make it more palatable. WE are to present GOD'S TRUTH unvarnished.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Putting unrepenting sinners into everlasting punishment does not make God a hideous, loathsome monster.

It makes him a just God.

Justice does not involve torture….it never has. Since when did God’s justice demand more than the crime committed required? A short lifetime of sin is not compensated for by everlasting torture in flames.
If God condemned unfaithful Israel for sacrificing their children to Molech, burning them alive, then why would he do that to his own children?
Jeremiah 7:31…
“They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’”

Just like when God commanded these things to be done didn’t make him a hideous loathsome monster:

“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” (1 Samuel 15:3)

Now go look up the word EVERLASTING since you’re concerned with definitions…

Death did not involve endless torture…ever. Israel had as its highest penalty, death. It was administered swiftly with no prolonged torture involved. They did not even have prisons, so incarceration was not even part of God’s punishment. How can you approve of endless cruelty?

God said to his errant people through Ezekiel….
“Tell them, ‘“As surely as I am alive,” declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that someone wicked changes his way and keeps living. Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why should you die, O house of Israel?” (Ezekiel 33:11)
Punishment has to have a purpose…to prompt a person to repent and turn back…..what good thing does hell accomplish if there can be no way to repent? Is punishment for its own sake something God ever did? Wasn’t there always a purpose?

“Everlasting” means without end, so a death without resurrection is an everlasting punishment. Simple.

For those who can love a cruel God such as the one worshipped and emulated by Christendom…that says a lot more about them than it says about the God of love and justice.
This is what prompted the infamous inquisition….torture and murder by burning people alive for daring to question the church…..the god they worship is none other than satan the devil. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Those who misrepresent the God of the Bible and teach blasphemies, will not remain to offend him a moment longer than he permits.

 

[Wrangler]

If someone is punished with final death, isn't that everlasting?

I noticed our opponents do not even attempt to answer your insightful question.

Putting unrepenting sinners into everlasting punishment does not make God a hideous, loathsome monster.

It makes him a just God.

Circular Reasoning.

In the end, if an all loving, all merciful God is indistinguishable from a purely evil devil - even to unrepentant sinners - something is wrong with your theology, definition or both.

 

[Brakelite]

In the end, if an all loving, all merciful God is indistinguishable from a purely evil devil - even to unrepentant sinners - something is wrong with your theology, definition or both.

Indistinguishable from those whose humanity we despise, yet praise because God expresses it so sublimely through eternal torment. As if the worst of us fell short in expressing godly justice in allowing criminals to actually die.

 

[Brakelite]

Revelation 20:1-3 we see satan bound and thrown into a bottomless pit for 1,000 years. So when does this occur and when does his release take place? I cannot follow your timeline at all.

The answer to the above is found in the OT sanctuary service in the events peculiar to the day of Atonement. The DoA is the type of the coming final days. Christ as High Priest is now officiating in the heavenly sanctuary, the anti -type to the final solemn day of the Jewish calendar. When He leaves the sanctuary, His mediatorial role finishes and He returns to take His redeemed people home. The earth is left desolate, empty, and uninhabitable. This constitutes the final 1000 years... The Sabbath for the earth after the first 6 days/ 6X1000 years, of work. The earth is now tired and it's dying. It will receive it's rest. It's only occupants will be the devil and his angels. They are bound by those circumstances having no where to go and no-one to tempt. A 1000 years to contemplate their impending destruction. This is the abyss, the empty dark void, the same word that described the earth in Genesis 1... The earth was empty and void.

At the end of this 1000 years the wicked dead from all ages are raised from their sleep to meet God face to face and to hear the judgement declared against them. Just like any court of law instituted by God, there is evidence presented, witnesses called, and an execution of sentence. This all takes place after the New Jerusalem descends from heaven housing all the redeemed who during that preceding 1000 years have gone over all the evidence, studied all the times God called the wicked to repentance, had all their questions answered as to whether God was just and fair in all His ways. The wicked surround the city and Satan, knowing there is only one final opportunity to overthrow God's government, spurs the lost to attack the city. Then fire destroys them. That same fire destroys everything else on the planet. The last of the pollution, the old remains of destruction from the plagues, the environmental disasters that spread across the earth during the wars of the last days, the nuclear fallout and poisons and wreckage that litters the earth everywhere... All is destroyed.
This mirrors the the DoA in that as the High Priest killed the clean goat and used the blood of the Lord's goat to cleanse the sanctuary of all the sins of the children of Israel from the previous year, so Christ Himself, the Lord's goat upon whom was clean and sinless, cleanses the sanctuary of all the records of all the sins of those who confessed and accepted Christ as Savior and looked to Him for redemption. The scapegoat is the one led into the wilderness to die. He wasn't sacrificed. But he did bear responsibility for his temptations and all the destruction and evil he caused. This of course represents Satan.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I noticed our opponents do not even attempt to answer your insightful question

The Bible is truth.

I find it quite bizarre that a question from a heretical point of view is “insightful” to you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Because the question is faulty.

No, it is relevant....because death can be eternal......it simply means that "the second death" is not going to release its captives.
Gehenna is the "lake of fire" but it is not a place where people and immaterial things like "death and hades" are tortured...it is a place where things are "destroyed". (Matthew 10:28; Revelation 20:13-15)

@BarnyFife said that everlasting death is final… WELL DUH!

The first death, caused by Adam's sin is forgivable, but the second death is not. The second death is permanent and merited.

The Bible does not say “everlasting death”, it says EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT!

Why would God give the wicked everlasting life, only to torment them and make them suffer punishment forever? Why would he need to? Does that satisfy God's justice, or is it completely contrary to it? Everlasting life is granted only to the righteous. He has no reason to keep the wicked alive. Death is all that is necessary for their punishment.....life is a gift, so when it is abused, the gift is withdrawn. Simple.

Dead people cannot be punished!

Its not the dead who are punished forever because they cease to exist....but it is the punishment itself that is everlasting.....

And you are wondering if we are deaf and blind....?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

@Aunty Jane

Can you see these words and hear them?

 

[BarneyFife]

If you’re saved and secure in your faith, why do you care what happens to unrepentant sinners?

I think this statement speaks for itself.

 

[BarneyFife]

When will the insanity stop? Also, please note that all denials of eternal Hell are ultimately from Satan. So you are simply telling people what Satan wants them to hear.

We are Satan's insane tools. Nice.

It's kind of depressing that you can't discuss disagreements on doctrine without hostility and insults.

Just sayin'.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I think this statement speaks for itself.

How about this statement:

“And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.” (Jeremiah 13:14)

 

[BarneyFife]

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

@Aunty Jane

Can you see these words and hear them?

What makes the above verse any more authoritative on the subject of final punishment than the following:

Revelation 20:9 : And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[BarneyFife]

How about this statement:

“And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.” (Jeremiah 13:14)

Comparing death with torture again?