Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Do you guys even understand this verse and understand what was going on in Eden?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Ummmmm.....yep...loud and clear.....the devil is cast into "the lake of fire".....read it again....can you cast the invisible devil into a literal lake? The lake of fire is called “the second death”, so it is not a literal place where literal things are literally tormented...it is the second place where the dead go if they mess up their relationship with God and abandon him.
Who is the "beast" and the "false prophet"? Because the devil joins them in that lake....What is the fire a symbol of in the Bible?
Why does Jesus say that what goes into Gehenna is "destroyed" (Matthew 10:28)....look up the meaning of that word.
In Greek it is "apollymi" which means....
"to destroy
- to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
- render useless
- to kill".
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I am beginning to wonder what on earth you think it means?
Was there any other cause of death in Eden except disobedience? Where did God tell Adam that he would go if he disobeyed?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
There is that word again....."DESTROY"...the death penalty does not need to have suffering attached to it, in fact in most cases of capital punishment, death is swift.....stoning, beheading, hanging, firing squad, lethal injection....all are a lot kinder than illnesses that leave people suffering for sometimes years. The good people suffer that kind of suffering along with the wicked, so how is it that God is only punishing bad people with suffering? For some, life in this world is a punishment all by itself....But God did not cause it. This is the devil's world and he is its ruler. (1 John 5:19)
Put the blame where it lies.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Oh, I see now.
Sooo….
Is heaven a “literal” place? Keep in mind, you cannot SEE heaven. So in your logic is heaven just a symbol too?
If you deny the lake of fire as a literal place you must deny heaven as well! Be consistent!
Take this verse and call me in the morning:
“While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)
The lake a fire is an eternal place (you cannot see it now).
Heaven is an eternal place (you cannot see it now).
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It is apparent from the scriptures that living beings inhabit heaven...we have that on good authority...even Jesus said “Our Father who art in heaven”....and he said that he had “come down from heaven”....but I have yet to see anything alive in Gehenna. Whatever is in there is DESTROYED......
See definition of “DESTROYED”....
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Heresy is only a view that opposes your own.
While the Bible is true, it is not truth for there are truths not contained in the Bible. @BarnyFife's question reveals the truth the heretics attempt to hide by not answering but instead engage in personal attacks and call names like heretical.
If you want to call me and others who have different views of Scripture, it changes nothing. I've been called worse by others more self-righteous than you.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” (Mark 9:43-44)
“Different views”?
Truth is the same. Those who refuse the truth are the ones with a heretical view which you call “different”.
It’s best if a faithful Bible reader stay away from “Christians” lest he be corrupted by them these last days:
“many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.” (Matthew 24:11)
INDEED!
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting quote. I presume that the highlighted bit are those that you wish to bring to our attention, so let us deal with them shall we.
First, I assume the reason you quoted that particular verse is because you think it defends your position that God is
A. intending to torment living creatures forever in fire or
B. Has already begun.
To that highlighted portion of scripture...
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.. That says two things.
A. There's a worm that doesn't die.
B. No-one can put the fire out.
What it doesn't say is that I or anyone else is a worm, nor does it explain what that worm is and why it's there. Do you know what it is and why it's there... From scripture?
Second thing it doesn't say is that the fire doesn't eventually go out. I could build a beautiful big fire in my back yard, stand at the gate with an M16 and shoot every fireman and potential hose man so that the fire cannot be quenched. But that doesn't mean the fire won't go out of its own accord once it runs out of fuel.
You are reading into that verse a heck of a lot of stuff that ain't there, and making some mighty assumptions based on half understood presumptions and only superficial reading. That verse simply does not say what you think it says... What you want it to say. Like I said earlier, I cannot understand why Christians who profess to love God are so intent on defaming His character with so little evidence.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Yes, different views. And you sadly equate yourself with the almighty in referencing who is offended so as to cut off your arm, etc.
I don’t think God is the least bit offended at my embrace of doctrines like Soul Sleep.
Steve Ciocolanti, from Discovery Ministries of Australia, said Christians should be more tolerant of fellow believers and stop categorizing all doctrinal differences as Heresy.
He said Heresy should be reserved for a teaching that prevents one from obtaining salvation. I agree with this.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Yet in this case (quoted below) Paul taught to get away from those who would dispute his teaching on masters and servants, and he even describes them with words that this delicate and weak generation would characterize as “insulting”:
“Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.” (1 Timothy 6:1-5)
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Allow me to hazard a guess. Advocating endless torture encourages the masses to be easier to control due to fear.
We are seeing the same thing with vaccines ... A little logic:
1. if the vaccines work, the unvaccinated pose no danger.
2. If the vaccines don’t work, why is the push for them?
3. The answer is money and control/power.
Likewise, if you don’t believe in what we say is orthoxy, we will huff and we will puff and coerce you with stories of being tortured by fire for all eternity.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No you didn’t!
You didn’t just compare AS EQUAL Scriptures directive on how we should interact with one another in our SOCIAL roles to your heretical view on Soul Sleep?!
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
It also pairs very nicely with the eternal security doctrine.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Soul sleep???
What are you talking about?!
Got the right thread?
We’ve been debating the lake of fire and everlasting punishment.
HELLO?
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Okay, so the thread’s OP is regarding Soul Sleep (which I agree with), but my latest postings were about everlasting punishment.
Excuse me.
Excuse me.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Oh. In that case, your heretical views on the lake of fire and everlasting punishment.
Neither are EQUAL to Scriptures directive on how we should treat each other in our SOCIAL roles.
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