The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

I can't figure out what all the hubbub is about. .



Jesus has paved the way for all. whosoever, wants to come, can come. But not all will. But if all would come, no one would be left out.

<<<whosoever, wants to come, can come. >>>

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

@CadyandZoe

Tong
R4791

 

[brightfame52]

Particular Redemption for Israel the Seed of Abraham

Many in false religion have been deceived into thinking that Christ came to die for all mankind without exception, or that He came to redeem all mankind without exception, yet these are delusions, for He came to redeem and die for a particular people without distinction of any particular nation or ethnicity, a Chosen People called Israel, or the Seed of Abraham,

Hear Ye the scripture Ps 25:22

Redeem Israel, O God, out of all his troubles.

Ps 130:8

And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

Gill writes of this verse:

And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. The Lord shall do it; in whom Israel is encouraged to hope; with whom grace and redemption were; or who was appointed to be the Redeemer. Redemption was then future, when these words were said, but certain, by the promise of God and agreement of Christ; and would be of the whole Israel, or elect of God; and that from "all" their iniquities, original and actual; sins, secret and open, of heart, lip, and life: and which is no small encouragement for Israel to hope in the Lord, for the sake of which this is added; as well as for the further illustration of the nature of redemption by Christ; which is complete, and now obtained, and is an eternal one.

Lk 1:68

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

This was according to Promise, Israel is the Only People that God has Promised to Redeem, and to Save Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Paul writes that it was a Particular People that Christ came to Redeem here Gal 4:4-5

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

You see that word THEM ? That is a signal word to indicate a specific People, not all without exception, but to a particular THEM, and that them is Israel that was under the Law. Now were all men under this Law ? No, in fact scripture makes it clear that God showed His Law/Word to One specific People only, Israel Ps 147:19-20

19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.

20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord.

His Law was for no other people , nation but Gods Israel

Again Paul writes of who exactly the Law was given to Rom 9:4

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

And its to these that Christ was made of a women for, made under the Law for, to redeem them that were under the Law that was given them !

 

[CadyandZoe]

I didn't know you were interacting with the validity of his opinion.

I don't know if anyone before St. Anselm taught the "satisfaction theory" of the atonement. The prevailing idea in this thread is the "substitutionary theory" of the atonement, i.e. Christ died instead of us. (You may hear someone talk about the "penal substitution" for instance.) The original post attempts to defend the doctrine known as "limited atonement", that is, Christ died only for the elect. Those who take the other side believe in the doctrine of "prevenient grace," i.e. God's grace takes a person all the way up to the very moment of commitment, but allows for the free-will choice to reject his free gift.

I don't think either side of the debate has properly understood the purpose of the cross. There is another meaning, which the Bible actually intended to convey, which both sides have misunderstood. I can briefly explain if you like, but at this point I leave it up to you to decide which you believe. Hopefully this short summary will help you in your own studies.

 

[CadyandZoe]

<<<whosoever, wants to come, can come. >>>

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

@CadyandZoe

Tong
R4791

As you point out, both ideas are in the Bible and both are valid. On the surface, these two ideas seem contradictory but in reality taken together they help us understand the nature of God better. The question behind Jesus' statement is "since Jesus lays out a clear path to eternal life, why doesn't everyone come to Jesus?" And freedom of the will is not the answer. In fact, Jesus has rendered freedom of the will an irrelevant issue. First, he emphasizes the helplessness of the human will, saying that everyone has this one inability: "no one can come to me." Second, he acknowledges that given divine aide, a person will come to him necessarily. And finally, the set of all those whom the Father draws to Jesus, is equivalent to the set of all those whom Jesus raises up on the last day.

Given Jesus' teaching on this matter, we conclude that the "whosoever" is indicative rather than consequential. All those who came to him were those who wanted to come to him. There aren't any who wanted to come to Jesus who didn't come to Jesus. And there weren't any who didn't want to come to Jesus who came to Jesus. For this reason, we conclude that the "wanting" is predicated on the Father's "drawing". In other words, the "drawing" is much more than an appeal, a plea, or an entreaty. For Jesus was already making an appeal to his own people. Yet, some of them refused to believe him. Without divine intervention, no one can come to him. The "drawing" therefore, must involve a supernatural change in the volition of a person.

 

[Truman]

I wish people would learn to use "I" statements.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I wish people would learn to use "I" statements.

I was taught early, all the way from grade school forward, to avoid using "I" statements.

What do you have in mind? What do you need?

 

[Truman]

I was taught early, all the way from grade school forward, to avoid using "I" statements.

What do you have in mind? What do you need?

I was commenting on the opening post.
When one begins a statement with, " I believe, I see, I understand," I feel that I am given the freedom have my own opinion about something, while considering what was said. I find it helpful.
When a statement is put forth that essentially says, "This is how it is" (even if it is so), I have a natural tendency to get defensive, if I haven't thought it through and agree.
In reality, saying "the myth of saying..." is no more, no less, than one person's opinion.
I'm not trying to criticize here, just suggesting a way to communicate that reduces friction among members.

 

[Tong2020]

As you point out, both ideas are in the Bible and both are valid. On the surface, these two ideas seem contradictory but in reality taken together they help us understand the nature of God better. The question behind Jesus' statement is "since Jesus lays out a clear path to eternal life, why doesn't everyone come to Jesus?" And freedom of the will is not the answer. In fact, Jesus has rendered freedom of the will an irrelevant issue. First, he emphasizes the helplessness of the human will, saying that everyone has this one inability: "no one can come to me." Second, he acknowledges that given divine aide, a person will come to him necessarily. And finally, the set of all those whom the Father draws to Jesus, is equivalent to the set of all those whom Jesus raises up on the last day.

Given Jesus' teaching on this matter, we conclude that the "whosoever" is indicative rather than consequential. All those who came to him were those who wanted to come to him. There aren't any who wanted to come to Jesus who didn't come to Jesus. And there weren't any who didn't want to come to Jesus who came to Jesus. For this reason, we conclude that the "wanting" is predicated on the Father's "drawing". In other words, the "drawing" is much more than an appeal, a plea, or an entreaty. For Jesus was already making an appeal to his own people. Yet, some of them refused to believe him. Without divine intervention, no one can come to him. The "drawing" therefore, must involve a supernatural change in the volition of a person.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who
comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Tong
R4800

 

[CadyandZoe]

I was commenting on the opening post.
When one begins a statement with, " I believe, I see, I understand," I feel that I am given the freedom have my own opinion about something, while considering what was said. I find it helpful.
When a statement is put forth that essentially says, "This is how it is" (even if it is so), I have a natural tendency to get defensive, if I haven't thought it through and agree.
In reality, saying "the myth of saying..." is no more, no less, than one person's opinion.
I'm not trying to criticize here, just suggesting a way to communicate that reduces friction among members.

Of course, you are right. Freedom of the mind is very important, especially for believers in Jesus. In my opinion, a couple of reasons exist to account for the friction. First, some people affirm religious dogma in order to remain a member in good standing with the church or the denomination that they attend. Such people seek out others who might give them affirmation. And they resent those who don't. (This practice is seen also in the broader culture world wide.) By contrast, those who seek the truth for its own sake, affirming what they have learned convinced by sound reason and personal inquiry, are comfortable with what they know to be true and have no reason to seek affirmation or confirmation from others.

Second, other folks become angry when strong, persuasive arguments in favor of some idea -- true or not -- are dismissed or ignored. Frustration builds from a sense of inadequacy, thinking that if they were better at explaining things, the other person would be compelled to agree. Since we don't like to feel inadequate, we get mad. I hope I don't do this today, but I can tell you that I was that kind of person a few short years ago.

 

[Truman]

Of course, you are right. Freedom of the mind is very important, especially for believers in Jesus. In my opinion, a couple of reasons exist to account for the friction. First, some people affirm religious dogma in order to remain a member in good standing with the church or the denomination that they attend. Such people seek out others who might give them affirmation. And they resent those who don't. (This practice is seen also in the broader culture world wide.) By contrast, those who seek the truth for its own sake, affirming what they have learned convinced by sound reason and personal inquiry, are comfortable with what they know to be true and have no reason to seek affirmation or confirmation from others.

Second, other folks become angry when strong, persuasive arguments in favor of some idea -- true or not -- are dismissed or ignored. Frustration builds from a sense of inadequacy, thinking that if they were better at explaining things, the other person would be compelled to agree. Since we don't like to feel inadequate, we get mad. I hope I don't do this today, but I can tell you that I was that kind of person a few short years ago.

He makes progress with us...even me! Lol

 

[Kermos]

* John 15:16: Here the Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples:-
'Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.'
(Joh 15:15)

* These were the twelve, chosen indeed by God the Father, through the Son.

* John 15:19:
'If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you.'
(Joh 15:18-19)

* These are the twelve, many who would go on to know martyrdom for His Name.

This is more about the recorded Word of God in John 15:16 and John 15:19 as mentioned in post #2283 which shows that you try to limit the audience to exclusively the apostles for the supper covered in John chapters 14 to 17.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

Thus, belief in Jesus through the Apostle John's words includes the Lord Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19which are all part of the "through" John's "word" (John 17:20) which Jesus referred to in His prayer.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)

Related post 4: Lord Jesus says "what I say to you I say to all" believers in Jesus Mark 13:37)

Related post 5: Lord Jesus Prophesies And Declares The Holy Spirit Indwelling Believers In Jesus Thus "You" In John 14-17 Includes All Believers In Jesus In All Time

 

[charity]

'For whom He did foreknow,
.. He also did predestinate
.... to be conformed to the image of His Son,
...... that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate,
.. them He also called:
.... and whom He called,
...... them He also justified:
........ and whom He justified,
.......... them He also glorified.'
(Romans 8:29-30)

Hello @Kermos

We must not forget that God has foreknowledge, and that foreknowledge comes before predestination. God foreknows who will believe on Him, so He is able, as in the verses above, to pre-destinate them. To what? - 'To be conformed to the image of His Son' (in the context of Romans 8:29-30). Those Whom He so predestinates, He also calls and whom He calls He justifies, and also glorifies.

Pre-destination can be done because of foreknowledge.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Tong2020]

'For whom He did foreknow,
.. He also did predestinate
.... to be conformed to the image of His Son,
...... that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate,
.. them He also called:
.... and whom He called,
...... them He also justified:
........ and whom He justified,
.......... them He also glorified.'
(Romans 8:29-30)

Hello @Kermos

We must not forget that God has foreknowledge, and that foreknowledge comes before predestination. God knows who will believe in Him, so He is able, as in the verses above, to pre-destinate them. What to? To be conformed to the image of His Son. Those Whom He so knows, He also calls and whom He calls He also justifies, and glorifies.

Pre-destination can be made because of foreknowledge.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

<<<foreknowledge comes before predestination>>>

Hi Chris,

Interesting thought you got there.

My thoughts: I don’t think there are such things in the creation of God that comes into being randomly or arbitrarily, nor are there events planned and determined by God to happen, that happens randomly or arbitrarily.

It could be the other way around. And I am inclined to believe it to be the other way around.

But who can really know and tell for sure?

Tong
R4817

 

[Taken]

John 6:
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

So the Question IS;
"HOW" does the Father "DRAW MEN" to Him?

Drag? No. That is FORCE.
So HOW?

Temptations, Enticements...Yes.
HOW?

* Expressly By SENDING His WORD into the World...

John 6:
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me (Jesus) draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Every man, WHO, has received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit...
Becomes "a Friend of Gods Word"...
Becomes "a son of God"...
Becomes "qualified" to REPEAT "Gods Word"...
That the World, will hear, be curious, be tempted to listen, be enticed to hear more, learn, continue hearing.

The wonderment is, a man can NOT "unhear" what he has heard.
* Men simply repeat Gods Word...which IS Gods WAY, to draw men TO HIM.

* Men continue to be naturally born...Holy Spirit baptized men Continue to Speak the Word of God...the Drawing continues.

 

[brightfame52]

Particular Redemption for Israel the Seed of Abraham 2

Now when Christ came to redeem His People, the Seed of Abraham, them He was specifically made under the Law, born of a women for as Per Gal 4:3-5

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we[Not all] might receive the adoption of sons.

Again this is a specific seed being referred to here, not all mankind without exception, in fact its the exact same thing being stated here under more specific and particular language Heb 2:14

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The Children here are the same ones as in Gal 4:3

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Heb 2:15-17

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

So when He was made of a women, under the Law, it was for the Seed of Abraham specifically, not all mankind, and this was in line with His Redemptive Purpose 1 Pet 1:18-20


18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest[Born of a Woman] in these last times for you[The Seed of Abraham],

 

[Taken]

Particular Redemption for Israel the Seed of Abraham

Many in false religion have been deceived into thinking that Christ came to die for all mankind without exception, or that He came to redeem all mankind without exception, yet these are delusions, for He came to redeem and die for a particular people without distinction of any particular nation or ethnicity, a Chosen People called Israel, or the Seed of Abraham,

Teaching OUT of ORDER obscures the Facts.

 

[charity]

'My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ the righteous:
And He is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world.'
(1 John 2:1)

Hello there,

'For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only Begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.'

Eternal life is God's gift to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The gift is available to all, but not all will avail themselves of it, for not all will believe God concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[brightfame52]

Teaching OUT of ORDER obscures the Facts.

I'm witnessing the truth.

 

[brightfame52]

Particular Redemption for Israel the Seed of Abraham 3

Now again, for the Purpose of Redemption, He was made or Born of a women, made under the Law, to Identify with the Children [of God]

Heb 2:14

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

But now the Children are Identified specifically as who in Vs 16 ? Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

The Children are the Seed of Abraham, as so is their Head Christ Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

And they are Identified once again in Vs 17 Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

They are called His Brethren, not all men without exception are His Brethren, and they are called the People, or His People Matt 1:21. His People are the Seed of Abraham, not Abraham's carnal seed either, for Jesus told some of them Jn 8:38,41-42

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

1 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Yes, though they were carnally Abraham's seed or children, gleaned from Jn 8:37

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Yet they were not His Brethren Spiritually as was these were Heb 2:14-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Because these brethren had God as their Father as He did !

And these are the Brethren of the Seed of Abraham that He came to redeem, not all men without exception !

To deny Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement is to deny it altogether, for the scripture knows of no other !

 

[charity]

Particular Redemption for Israel the Seed of Abraham 3

Now again, for the Purpose of Redemption, He was made or Born of a women, made under the Law, to Identify with the Children [of God]

Heb 2:14

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

But now the Children are Identified specifically as who in Vs 16 ? Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

The Children are the Seed of Abraham, as so is their Head Christ Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

And they are Identified once again in Vs 17 Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

They are called His Brethren, not all men without exception are His Brethren, and they are called the People, or His People Matt 1:21. His People are the Seed of Abraham, not Abraham's carnal seed either, for Jesus told some of them Jn 8:38,41-42

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

1 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Yes, though they were carnally Abraham's seed or children, gleaned from Jn 8:37

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Yet they were not His Brethren Spiritually as was these were Heb 2:14-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Because these brethren had God as their Father as He did !

And these are the Brethren of the Seed of Abraham that He came to redeem, not all men without exception !

To deny Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement is to deny it altogether, for the scripture knows of no other !

'I exhort therefore, that, first of all,
supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks,
be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority;
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life
in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave Himself a ransom for all,
to be testified in due time.'
(1 Timothy 2:1-6)

Hello @brightfame52.

With respect, in using the verses you have quoted to maintain that the Lord Jesus Christ did not die for all without exception, you are falling into error.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris