Eternal Security

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Ferris Bueller

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You've skipped over much of the NT where works are clearly stated to be necessary.
They are necessary to be saved when Jesus comes back to judge the world.
But they are not necessary to make one righteous (Romans 4:6). Abraham did no work to have God's righteousness imputed to him. That happened entirely through his faith in the promises of God.
Works are only necessary toward showing that one has faith in God (James 2:24). Abraham showed that he believed God by what he did in offering Isaac in sacrifice.

This is confusing to people because, both, being made righteous, and being shown to be righteous are both referred to as 'being justified'. A genuine believer is, both, justified by faith apart from works, and, justified by works. IOW, the genuine believer is made righteous by faith apart from works, and is shown to be righteous by his works. Just as Abraham, our example, was. Paul and James are not in disagreement about this matter of justification.
 

Ferris Bueller

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The passage says, if you've been raised with Him, you will appear with Him. You say, if you've been raised with Him, maybe you will appear with Him.
...if you keep believing. That is the argument. And it comes right from the whole counsel of scripture. Unlike your argument which is clinging to an un-rightly divided verse of scripture.
 

marks

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Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
 
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APAK

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Either that or he's into watching old '60s TV shows.

The Prisoner - Wikipedia
and more...the symbol of the current state of temporary imprisonment on this dark fading earth.....

and then to reveal the desires of the heart and spirit to experience them in the moment, the simplicities in life. The freedom to think, to believe, to create, to perform, without fear, pressure and coercion, living in the many colors of the light of the truth.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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You introduce doubt where God gives certainty.
I'm only saying what the Bible says. So you are saying the Bible introduces doubt...

"you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." 1 Corinthians 15:2

"Whoever remains in His teaching has both the Father and the Son." 2 John 1:9

"we are His house, if we hold firmlyc to our confidence and the hope of which we boast." Hebrews 3:6

"14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first." Hebrews 3:14

"to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard" Colossians 1:22-23

"3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard—and keep it and repent. If therefore you shall not watch, I will come like a thief, and you shall not know at what hour I will come upon you." Revelation 3:3
 

GodsGrace

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So you don't believe it. And round and round we go.

You assert that some who are raised with Him won't appear with Him because they stop being raised with Him. Such violence against the grammar!

The passage says, if you've been raised with Him, you will appear with Him. You say, if you've been raised with Him, maybe you will appear with Him.

You introduce doubt where God gives certainty. My trust is in God.

Much love!
Marks....

You can't base all your theological beliefs on one scripture.
Those who are raised with Him will appear with Him IF they are still raised at the end of their life.

Not ALL those that come to believe in Jesus and follow Him will still be doing this at the end of their life...
although I do believe the majority will because, as Peter says:

John 6:68
Lord, to whom shall we go? Only You have the words of eternal life.

We cannot overlook all the IF's in the N.T.

2 Peter 2:20-22
Romans 11:19-22
James 5:19-20
Hebrews 3:14 and many more...

They all state that we will be saved IF we hold firm till the end.

 

GodsGrace

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Into this group I put anything that you think you have to do to "remain saved".

We shouldn't be trying to stay saved, we should be rejoicing that we are saved, and if we've firmly stabilized our calling and election, and aren't being blown about wondering if we're really reborn, we can settle our minds on a walk of faith, because it's HIM we trust, we do not accept Any Burden to "keep ourselves saved", God does that, and we are not God.

Will I stop being saved? What must I do to stay saved? These questions are the opposite of faith, and have the opposite effect from faith.

You know that I write generally, not always directed personally to you? So if anything I say offends, that was meant for someone else.

Much love!
Persons that do not believe in OSAS do NOT go around worrying about their salvation and wondering if they're doing works or not.

I'd say that the ideal of OSAS is very destructive to the Christian faith.
It's also very dangerous since some may believe they could live as they want to and still be saved...
I've encountered this on these forums.

Because you walk down an isle and "accept" Jesus at one time or other, does not mean you will be saved forever.
Even Calvin, who believed in this idea and upon whose teachings it is based, calling it Perseverance of the Saints did not believe everyone who thought they were saved would reach final salvation.

(I don't care for calvinism, BTW).
 

Lifelong_sinner

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Persons that do not believe in OSAS do NOT go around worrying about their salvation and wondering if they're doing works or not.

I'd say that the ideal of OSAS is very destructive to the Christian faith.
It's also very dangerous since some may believe they could live as they want to and still be saved...
I've encountered this on these forums.

Because you walk down an isle and "accept" Jesus at one time or other, does not mean you will be saved forever.
Even Calvin, who believed in this idea and upon whose teachings it is based, calling it Perseverance of the Saints did not believe everyone who thought they were saved would reach final salvation.

(I don't care for calvinism, BTW).

one thing i have noticed about you arminians, is you dont believe in false converts. Why is that?
You said; “Not ALL those that come to believe in Jesus and follow Him will still be doing this at the end of their life...
although I do believe the majority will because, as Peter says.”

This is simple to understand, there are many false converts. Also, i do not agree with you about the majority being saved. There will be BILLIONS who end up in hell. When Jesus said few will be saved, He was speaking truthfully. In todays world, it is said that only about 5-10% of church goers are actually saved. I believe that. False converts are dime a dozen, i should know, im one of them.
(BTW, im a presbyterian and extreme calvinist)
 

APAK

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Wow...@APAK is one old dude.
Not young like you and I are!!!

LOL
Thanks for the wikipedia update.
Rollo is a few years older than me...remember him.. I guess he's on another site these days....he was/is a fun person who made me laugh
 

amadeus

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Such violence against the grammar!
The grammar is a problem because men speak languages which are formed according to the way men are... thinking of yesterday, today and tomorrow and being worried about all of them even though the first one [to us] is gone and beyond help and the last of them may never arrive for us. You should get hold of @ScottA on this subject. He has been around again lately. Men want God to be subject to time and because they are they presume that He must be as well they treat Him that way. Are we to be like Him or not?
 
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amadeus

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...if you keep believing. That is the argument. And it comes right from the whole counsel of scripture. Unlike your argument which is clinging to an un-rightly divided verse of scripture.
Can a person move backward from God instead of moving forward toward Him? Can a "good" [even as men understand the word] person ever become bad [worse or evil]? People will say that once you really get to know God that they cannot lose the "good" ["salvation"?] they have received, ... but what happened to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? Did they improve when they disobeyed God? Did they not backslide?

How many people today, believers, have a relationship with God like Adam had with Him before he disobeyed?


Too many people want to disregard the message from God to us also in the OT. God has not changed. God's consideration of individuals has not changed! How well do we understand Him? Do we love Him more than the blessings He offers us?
 
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marks

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You can't base all your theological beliefs on one scripture.
Those who are raised with Him will appear with Him IF they are still raised at the end of their life.
I see a great many Scriptures which either teach this very thing, or agree with that understanding.

And even so, just that one passage is not wrong.

You're assertion is that we should introduce a condition to be met that does not appear in the verse. It sounds good, and it seems to make sense, but the net result is to introduce doubt where God gives certainty.

It seems that your presupposition is that somehow, some who are raised with Him will not in fact appear with Him, and therefore, this additional condition is required.

And it equally seems that this passage carries it's own supposition, that your additional condition is not needed, and in fact, this is a thing that won't happen.

And many other Scriptures agree. Peter tells us it's God Who is keeping us by His power through faith. This is to say that the faith in us that carries us through this life is God's power. He will not fail us.

They all state that we will be saved IF we hold firm till the end.

This is of course true! If you hold you confidence stedfast to the end, this means that you had become a partaker of Christ. If you do not, that means you had not actually become a partaker of Christ, even if you, or someone else thought you had.

Why is this important? The true children know. The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God. And the true children need to understand that all our concerns over all our problems will be addressed with Jesus comes, when we see Him, because we will become like Him.

And knowing that this is our new future, knowing that, he who has This Hope purifies himself, even as He is pure.

Knowing . . . not wondering . . . knowing that we will be like Him then means we purify ourselves now. If you do the one, you do the other.

And so I want to point people to a full trust in Jesus to accomplish all that is needed in your life, and you can just focus on enjoying His fellowship in this moment. If you are doing that, whatever else comes in your life, you will respond from the position of, I'm here, my Creator is here, and He loves me so much! Thinking about this passage, listening to that hymn, talking to Him, listening to that still voice, as we move through our day together. I love Him so much! Any issue, any question, difficulty, whatever, Jesus? What do we do? And the answer is there, or the answer waits. And either it goes the way I think I want, or it goes some other way, but Jesus is here, and He loves me so much!!

This doesn't come when yo are concerned that your eternal life could be ripped away from you - call it what you want, but the net result is fear.

Fear that maybe one day I'll just go too far.

Fear has torment, and the one who fears has not been matured in love. If our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our heart. He's not bound by our limitations, instead, He knows all things. He knows what we don't know, what He's going to do for us, but He's told us, so we can know, if we will only believe it's real.

Much love!
 

marks

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The grammar is a problem because men speak languages which are formed according to the way men are... thinking of yesterday, today and tomorrow and being worried about all of them even though the first one [to us] is gone and beyond help and the last of them may never arrive for us. You should get hold of @ScottA on this subject. He has been around again lately. Men want God to subject to time and because they are they presume that He must be as well treat Him that way. Are we to be like Him or not?
This is language, and that's how language works, and I'm thinking God picked out the words to say this the way He meant it.

I have no notion to "subject God to time", but I do think He is accurately communicating.

Much love!
 

marks

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It's also very dangerous since some may believe they could live as they want to and still be saved...
If you are a child of God, how do you want to live? I want to live a righteous and holy life, though sometimes I am deficient in faith, and find sin, the works of the flesh, still present with me. I pretty much figure its that way for all true Christians. If you've been born again, you are different.

Much love!