Eternal Security

[Ferris Bueller]

That's the inheritance, but it's good you are looking.

I just can't get over your translation.

It really re-words the passage. It makes me think maybe I understand the cause for confusion . . .

I searched it . . . it looks like you are using the NIV. No wonder!

Much love!

I use different versions.

 

[marks]

But that is a given.

It's a moot point offered as a distraction misleading into a false idea.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You're right.
Once you get off and are determined to stay off, God does not allow you to get back on.

To which I will reply . . .

If you've been raised with Christ, you shall appear with Him.

Not all believe that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What a prime example of the Salvation Security Debate. Simple Scripture with no disagreement over what it says, only, can someone accept that it's true, and then reconcile their view to it?

Or just post opinions and quote Scriptures as if they negated what other Scriptures plainly state. But it just doesn't work that way.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The problem here is, you cannot accept the statement of Colossians

I accept it completely and totally as written. People who are risen with him will in fact appear with him when he comes back. That's why it's important that you let the word remain in you so you remain risen in him.

I know this is hard for you to grasp because OSAS believers simply can not think outside of the OSAS paradigm. You are literally only capable of seeing things one way—your way. In the OSAS paradigm, eternal life can only mean you can't lose it. It can't comprehend that eternal life can also mean the life itself is what is eternal, not your possession of it in this life. And that's what I'm saying is what the Bible actually says is eternal about salvation. It never ends. That doesn't mean you can't lose it. It means it's a life that doesn't peter out, like the life the old covenant priesthood and sacrifices gave the people of God petered out and which had to be reestablished over and over again.

This is in fact what the Bible itself says is eternal about salvation. And it says you have the life that is eternal as long as you keep believing. This alternate understanding of eternal life—which I am showing you is actually the Biblical understanding of it—is literally outside of the capabilities of the average OSASer to grasp (let alone agree with). I have found that the OSAS indoctrination is one of the hardest indoctrinations to root out of a person.

Personally, I don't care if a fellow believer wants to believe that they are always saved and can not stop believing. It's this new Hyper Grace theology that has swept through the church that says you can even stop believing and you are still saved, no matter what. That I firmly resist, and will continue to resist. The scary part has been that people tend to waffle between the versions of OSAS as it suits the argument. They don't seem to know that the original OSAS teaching that came into the church in the 1500's said if you went back to unbelief you were never really saved to begin with. I can live with some in the church believing that. I can not live with or tolerate people telling other Christians that they can go back to unbelief and they are still save because salvation is not by works, as if 'believing' was among the works that Paul said can not make a person righteous. Hyper Grace OSAS is an extremely uneducated theology.

Sorry for the long post but I think at this point in the discussion it is warranted.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What a prime example of the Salvation Security Debate. Simple Scripture with no disagreement over what it says, only, can someone accept that it's true, and then reconcile their view to it?

Much love!

You're the one rejecting the plain scriptures that say you are saved as long as you keep believing.
But I get it...you can't 'see' them. I get it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you've been raised with Christ, you shall appear with Him.

Not all believe that.

I believe that.
What I don't believe is a person remains risen with Christ no matter what. You can not go back to unbelief and still be risen with Christ.

 

[marks]

You're the one rejecting the plain scriptures that say you are saved as long as you keep believing.

Post the passage you think I reject.

 

[marks]

I believe that.
What I don't believe is a person remains risen with Christ no matter what. You can not go back to unbelief and still be risen with Christ.

So then you don't believe that if you've been raised with Him, you will appear with Him.

Don't instead you believe that if you've been raised with Him, maybe you will appear with Him?

Where the Bible speaks certainty, you speak doubt.

So in fact, though you claim to believe that, you post hundreds of posts showing that you do not. Which should I believe? Your claim of belief? Or your many words that deny it?

Much love!

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

To deny OSAS, means to believe in a works based salvation. Salvation is not based on our works.

 

[APAK]

You have the completed action of being risen with Christ as long as you continue to believe:

"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." 1 Corinthians 15:2​

The condition of Colossians 3:1-4 is that you are "risen with Christ".
You are risen in Christ as long as you continue to believe.
We know that from other scripture.
You can't un-rightly divide Colossians 3:1-4 away from the whole counsel of scripture.

As with this verse you quoted and others with similar meaning, there is something to be said that is often ignored by both opposing camps of this topic.

Take this verse for example, how does one hold firmly to the words that comprise the gospel for salvation.

It means that to guarantee salvation that one is truly saved, one has to meditate and digest the gospel completely over time, for it to become second nature, a way of living in heart and mind. It becomes us, a true part of ourselves!

So what is the take way?
1. Those that think they are saved may not be saved at all, even if they understand and can recite different level of the words of the gospel, any time and to anyone. And use it as a handy device to memorized and recite. Eventhough they say I believe....at all costs
2. Those that do not eat and drink the gospel can easily lose its taste and will be absent from their daily diet. They can easily let go of it and make it only a part of their top 10 areas of personal interest. And so they are not really saved, as Paul would agree
3. Those that believe a truly saved person can easily drop the gospel as their primal direction in life are very much mistaken. If this did occur, these were never truly saved in the first place. We assume that they are saved and place this verse in their face to say you can lose it if you want! They never really gained it in the first place.

Paul is emphasizing the 'harder' requirement in life, to become genuinely saved!!!

I just had to throw these ideas in, because folks really need to examine if they are truly saved or not.
There is nothing wrong with the verse you quoted indicating a loss of fake salvation. And this is true. However, this verse does not apply to the genuinely saved. It can never happen ..it is already woven into the fabric of their soul...it cannot be loosened or not be 'held firmly.'

This is Paul's message to his audience if you read it again with verses before it and after it to get the context.

Paul was bent on folks being really and genuinely saved...not fair-weather believers who were not saved.

And hence the reason for I Corinthians 15:2

 

[Ferris Bueller]

To deny OSAS, means to believe in a works based salvation. Salvation is not based on our works.

Yes, Calvinism says 'believing', if you do it, is you trying to save yourself. And which is why you have to be picked by God and made a believing person entirely at the discretion of God without any input from you whatsoever and no consideration of what you would choose on your own. Well, the problem with that is the Bible says 'believing' is NOT a boast of personal work...

"27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. " Romans 3:27
​

So there's no need to invent a theology that makes it so not even the 'work' of believing is to be performed by a person to be saved.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

To deny OSAS, means to believe in a works based salvation. Salvation is not based on our works.

So, just so you understand...Paul himself says 'believing' is not included in what a person does that would be him trying to earn his own justification as a reward of work, rather than a reward of grace.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As with this verse you quoted and others with similar meaning, there is something to be said that is often ignored by both opposing camps of this topic.

Take this verse for example, how does one hold firmly to the words that comprise the gospel for salvation.

It means that to guarantee salvation that one is truly saved, one has to meditate and digest the gospel completely over time, for it to become second nature, a way of living in heart and mind. It becomes us, a true part of ourselves!

So what is the take way?
1. Those that think they are saved may not be saved at all, even if they understand and can recite different level of the words of the gospel, any time and to anyone. And use it as a handy device to memorized and recite. Eventhough they say I believe....at all costs
2. Those that do not eat and drink the gospel can easily lose its taste and will be absent from their daily diet. They can easily let go of it and make it only a part of their top 10 areas of personal interest. And so they are not really saved, as Paul would agree
3. Those that believe a truly saved person can easily drop the gospel as their primal direction in life are very much mistaken. If this did occur, these were never truly saved in the first place. We assume that they are saved and place this verse in their face to say you can lose it if you want! They never really gained it in the first place.

Paul is emphasizing the 'harder' requirement in life, to become genuinely saved!!!

I just had to throw these ideas in, because folks really need to examine if they are truly saved or not.
There is nothing wrong with the verse you quoted indicating a loss of fake salvation. And this is true. However, this verse does not apply to the genuinely saved. It can never happen ..it is already woven into the fabric of their soul...it cannot be loosened or not be 'held firmly.'

This is Paul's message to his audience if you read it again with verses before it and after it to get the context.

Paul was bent on folks being really and genuinely saved...not fair-weather believers who were not saved.

And hence the reason for I Corinthians 15:2

I believe a person can grow and mature to the point where he will not go back to the world in unbelief. What I resist is the suggestion that no true believer will go back to the world, no matter how immature they are.

So I say no mature true believer will go back to the world. That's as close to a OSAS teaching that I will go. That kind of mature believer is represented in the 4th type of soil in the Parable of the Sower. That is the goal we are to be striving for in the church. We are to have the word of God so firmly planted in us and bearing fruit that it simply won't be uprooted. That's where the security of always being saved comes from. Instead the church takes a false comfort of always being saved in a OSAS doctrine.

 

[APAK]

I believe a person can grow and mature to the point where he will not go back to the world in unbelief. What I resist is the suggestion that no true believer will go back to the world, no matter how immature they are.

So I say no mature true believer will go back to the world. That's as close to a OSAS teaching that I will go. That kind of mature believer is represented in the 4th type of soil in the Parable of the Sower. That is the goal we are to be striving for in the church. We are to have the word of God so firmly planted in us and bearing fruit that it simply won't be uprooted. That's where the security of always being saved comes from. Instead the church takes a false comfort of always being saved in a OSAS doctrine.

I agree with it....the 4th type of soil indeed...thanks for your candid reply.

It just makes us want to stay in the word and the gospel for salvation... and Paul was the example of the extreme genuine article of faith...

 

[marks]

This is Paul's message to his audience if you read it again with verses before it and after it to get the context.

Paul was bent on folks being really and genuinely saved...not fair-weather believers who were not saved.

And hence the reason for I Corinthians 15:2

Well said!

Yes, this passage is descriptive, and not an alternate method for salvation.

Much love!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

To deny OSAS, means to believe in a works based salvation. Salvation is not based on our works.

You do not work to obtain the forgiveness of sins as a newcomer to the faith.

But you do work to maintain the salvation brought about by the forgiveness of your old sins.

This is why the full volume of the New Testament exists; that you may be perfect in the faith.

You cannot refute this with any scripture.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

You do not work to obtain the forgiveness of sins as a newcomer to the faith.

But you do work to maintain the salvation brought about by the forgiveness of your old sins.

This is why the full volume of the New Testament exists; that you may be perfect in the faith.

You cannot refute this with any scripture.

hogwash!!! You dont work for anything pertaining to salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I accept it completely and totally as written. People who are risen with him will in fact appear with him when he comes back. That's why it's important that you let the word remain in you so you remain risen in him.

I know this is hard for you to grasp because OSAS believers simply can not think outside of the OSAS paradigm. You are literally only capable of seeing things one way—your way. In the OSAS paradigm, eternal life can only mean you can't lose it. It can't comprehend that eternal life can also mean the life itself is what is eternal, not your possession of it in this life. And that's what I'm saying is what the Bible actually says is eternal about salvation. It never ends. That doesn't mean you can't lose it. It means it's a life that doesn't peter out, like the life the old covenant priesthood and sacrifices gave the people of God petered out and which had to be reestablished over and over again.

This is in fact what the Bible itself says is eternal about salvation. And it says you have the life that is eternal as long as you keep believing. This alternate understanding of eternal life—which I am showing you is actually the Biblical understanding of it—is literally outside of the capabilities of the average OSASer to grasp (let alone agree with). I have found that the OSAS indoctrination is one of the hardest indoctrinations to root out of a person.

Personally, I don't care if a fellow believe wants to believe that they are always saved and can not stop believing. It's this new Hyper Grace theology that has swept through the church that says you can even stop believing and you are still saved, no matter what. That I firmly resist, and will continue to resist. The scary part has been that people tend to waffle between the versions of OSAS as it suits the argument. They don't seem to know that the original OSAS teaching that came into the church in the 1500's said if you went back to unbelief you were never really saved to begin with. I can live with some in the church believing that. I can not live with or tolerate people telling other Christians that they can go back to unbelief and they are still save because salvation is not by works, as if 'believing' was among the works that Paul said can not make a person righteous. Hyper Grace OSAS is an extremely uneducated theology.

Sorry for the long post but I think at this point in the discussion it is warranted.

Nice post, covering all !

 

[GodsGrace]

hogwash!!! You dont work for anything pertaining to salvation.

LOL lifelong...
Hogwash does not a doctrine make.

You've skipped over much of the NT where works are clearly stated to be necessary.

This was the primary teaching of Jesus.