Who can speak to the text?

[face2face]

Not the false teachers . . . the messengers. Maybe revisit my post?

False teachers speak evil against dignities. Messengers do not.
Much love!

The messengers of Numbers 16 did speak evil of dignities.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Numbers 16 you mean?

Of course! You take teh test and reinterpret it based on some idea you hatched!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I find the context of the passage clear and compelling. I don't find any contradictions with other passages, and I find other passages that support the context of this passage.

We don't need imagination, we need submission.

Much love!

I'm confused- are you supporting face2faces's reinterpretation?

 

[face2face]

@marks

I agree with this:

"Two types are named here, these false teachers, who are not afraid to speak evil of dignities, while the angels (human messengers) know better, even being mightier"

Brackets by F2F.

 

[face2face]

Of course! You take teh test and reinterpret it based on some idea you hatched!

Its not some idea Ronald...read Post #17 its all based on Scripture and the context of 2 Peter 2 is screaming at you to take a re-look.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, it's truly a shame you had to waste responses on this guy. I saw it coming so I didn't even bother.

Don't waste your time on people like this. He should not even be replied to.

God bless,
HiH

Hidden, being prompted to respond to present the truth is all that I have done for the others who may read this thread. If people follow my post then I will have fulfilled my purpose in this thread and they will know how to respond and form their own opinion as to how they should also respond.

Shalom

 

[marks]

@marks

I agree with this:

"Two types are named here, these false teachers, who are not afraid to speak evil of dignities, while the angels (human messengers) know better, even being mightier"

Brackets by F2F.

I'm curious, I haven't been able to work out from your posts . . . who exactly do you think these messengers are? Not the false teachers? I thought initially that's who you were saying they were, but now I find I'm confused over what you think.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm confused- are you supporting face2faces's reinterpretation?

No, not at all.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The messengers of Numbers 16 did speak evil of dignities.

Then they must not be the same. What verse in Numbers 16 do you have in mind? Would you post the quote?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Its not some idea Ronald...read Post #17 its all based on Scripture and the context of 2 Peter 2 is screaming at you to take a re-look.

You need to realize . . . you've presented this as, "Celestial Angels can't sin, therefore, these can't be celestial angels."

What makes you say celestial angels can't sin? Especially considering what Jude wrote,

Jude 1:6 KJV
6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

"but left their own habitation," their own 'oiketerion', a word used one other place,

2 Corinthians 5:1-3 KJV
1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Let me ask you . . . what did these "messengers" leave?

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

What do want Hidden? You're not dumb, okay...have we communicated elsewhere in the forum? Have we crossed paths on a subject, or offended you personally somehow? You made it very clear you don't want to engage with the OP, so whats your MO? If you dont care for the OP, move on.

Face2face, it is not what you have said to me. It is what you have said to others who have engaged you politely and respectfully. Running some crack at them in return about their ignorance and how they must be watching Perry Jackson movies is not cool, especially when they were giving you the Orthodox position of the people of God going all the way back through antiquity and all the way through the first three centuries of Christendom. At least have a little more respect for them than to respond like that.

I have nothing against you personally, as strange as that might sound from my posts. But active members here need to be more respectful of each other than that. I'm just saying.

Cool it with the rude remarks to people and even I would like to discuss this with you. Maybe not now, LoL, but this is not the sort of thing I will carry hard feelings over. You just need to cool it with the insulting remarks. Most people who do that as new members don't last long, and I don't want to see a longer-standing member going anywhere. I don't want to see ME going anywhere either because I lost my head and wanted to eat you for dinner, Lol.

God bless, and no hard feelings. Just please watch being insulting to people. I read their responses and they didn't deserve that.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Who is willing to deal with the context of 2 Peter 2:4

Traditional Christians state angels can sin but the Scriptural evidence is far from convincing.

So what is the true context of 2 Peter 2:4?

2 Peter 2:4 is connected with 2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, [OT Israel!] even as there shall be false teachers among you! . . ." 2 Peter 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:3 are a warning of false teachers to come in the future, but verse 4 reverts to verse 1 and illustrates the judgment of God upon false prophets in Israel. In 2 Peter 2:5-7, Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, selects two additional illustrations from Old Testament history to prove his point. The word for angels here is used for those false messengers with whom God judged. The question is what incident in Israels history could it be alluding to?

The context of 2 Peter 2 is about man's sins and God's judgment on mankind...to which He demonstrated His Sovereignty by describing His judgment on the fallen angels as a comparison.
These 2 scriptures narrate the distinction between 2 groups of angels...the fallen and the obedient.
2 Peter 2 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
The fallen:
⁴ For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The obedient:
¹¹ Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them (the fallen) before the Lord.

So as Satan was cast down he drew a third of the angels with him by his deception...deceiving them to turn against God to overcome Him. (They truly thought God was off His rocker in creating mankind and making man above them when mankind didn't even possess any power).
All of 2 Peter 2 is comparing the consequences man faces by illustrating what God did with Satan and his angels.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Adding that Satan deceived them by his own pride and ignorance...just like false prophets and teachers lead astray God's people through their own self-righteous pride and ignorance of His Truth.

 

[face2face]

I'm curious, I haven't been able to work out from your posts . . . who exactly do you think these messengers are? Not the false teachers? I thought initially that's who you were saying they were, but now I find I'm confused over what you think.

Much love!

Peter uses the term false prophets and false teachers in 2 Peter 2:1 by way of defining the type of false authority being claimed. There is a difference between one who claims they have visions from God (prophet) opposed to those who see themselves as teachers.

In 2 Peter 2:2 Peter bundles these two together by calling them "false teachers", because that is what both groups do - teach falsely.

He then goes on to provide OT examples of "false teachers" ie 2 Peter 2: 4 & Number 16 having set the context in 2 Peter 2:1

What he doesn't do is go off script to some fallen divine angel story which is not found anywhere in the Bible. No, he stays on script by introducing:

1. Numbers 16 - 2 Peter 2:4 (Left their first estate)
2. Gen 6 - 2 Peter 2:5 (ungodly world)
3. Gen 19 - 2 Peter 2:7 (lawless men)

So only Human Messengers are the subject matter for 2 Peter 2 - There is nowhere found in 2 Peter 2 that speaks to divine angels falling or rebelling in Heaven.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[face2face]

Then they must not be the same. What verse in Numbers 16 do you have in mind? Would you post the quote?

Much love!

So if you read Number 16 you will find evidence that the human angels were the 250 princes in the Israelite congregation (see Numbers 16:2) which were led in rebellion by Korah, Dathan and Abiram.

1. They were "aggeloi" (angels) since their office was to "minister" to the congregation. (see Numbers 16:9).
2. Their "first estate" or "principality" (2 Peter 2:4 Jude 1:6) was the "princes" or "leaders" (see Numbers 16:2).
3. They left this "former estate" when they sought the priesthood. (Numbers 16:10).
4. They were delivered into "chains of darkness" when they were swallowed alive by the earth. ( see Numbers 16:31-33).
5. They were "sinners" in claiming to themselves the priesthood. ( see Numbers 16:10 & Numbers 16:38).
6. The judgment will be administered by Christ (see 2 Timothy 4:1).
7. Those who opposed Moses in the rebellion of Korah were called the "sons of Levi" ( see Numbers 16:8). In Malachi 2:7 we see the levitical priests were also called "messengers ("aggeloi") of the LORD.

Now if a believer here is able to provide this type of detail to their fallen angel story, I would be more than willing to examine but these above 7 points more than convince me the messengers in 2 Peter 2:4 are Korah, Dathan & Abiram and all those number with them.

 

[face2face]

The context of 2 Peter 2 is about man's sins and God's judgment on mankind...to which He demonstrated His Sovereignty by describing His judgment on the fallen angels as a comparison.
These 2 scriptures narrate the distinction between 2 groups of angels...the fallen and the obedient.
2 Peter 2 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
The fallen:
⁴ For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The obedient:
¹¹ Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them (the fallen) before the Lord.

So as Satan was cast down he drew a third of the angels with him by his deception...deceiving them to turn against God to overcome Him. (They truly thought God was off His rocker in creating mankind and making man above them when mankind didn't even possess any power).
All of 2 Peter 2 is comparing the consequences man faces by illustrating what God did with Satan and his angels.

Can explain how fallen angels is a comparison to those false prophets and teachers who were in Israel and in Christianity today? Not said sarcastically but have you seen a fallen angel? And if they are chained and cast into darkness being ineffective whats the point?

 

[face2face]

Face2face, it is not what you have said to me. It is what you have said to others who have engaged you politely and respectfully. Running some crack at them in return about their ignorance and how they must be watching Perry Jackson movies is not cool, especially when they were giving you the Orthodox position of the people of God going all the way back through antiquity and all the way through the first three centuries of Christendom. At least have a little more respect for them than to respond like that.

I have nothing against you personally, as strange as that might sound from my posts. But active members here need to be more respectful of each other than that. I'm just saying.

Cool it with the rude remarks to people and even I would like to discuss this with you. Maybe not now, LoL, but this is not the sort of thing I will carry hard feelings over. You just need to cool it with the insulting remarks. Most people who do that as new members don't last long, and I don't want to see a longer-standing member going anywhere. I don't want to see ME going anywhere either because I lost my head and wanted to eat you for dinner, Lol.

God bless, and no hard feelings. Just please watch being insulting to people. I read their responses and they didn't deserve that.

I admit my patience before this thread was at an all-time low and its clear now I held very high expectations, unrealistically so. What you must appreciate is Christians (of which I am one) make bold claims about certain doctrines but rarely do they engage with the Scriptural text. They talk at it, and around it, but rarely in it. Take @marks approach who has opened the record and, in some instances, made me reconsider the context that I am so passionate about opening. I'll take your rebuke in its current form and respect it. Some perspective...I spent 6 weeks speaking to Roman Catholics on Mariology, some here came across from that thread and that hasn't bode well. BTW, I am not wanting people to drop their beliefs and accept mine...be good if they tested their beliefs and found for themselves what they thought was a convincing verse, isn’t as lock tight as they thought. I think some will hold to what they have been taught while others will go away and consider the evidence for themselves. That's iron sharpening iron - and yeah there are sparks but in the end its for edification. God bless.

 

[face2face]

You need to realize . . . you've presented this as, "Celestial Angels can't sin, therefore, these can't be celestial angels."

What makes you say celestial angels can't sin? Especially considering what Jude wrote,

Jude 1:6 KJV
6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

"but left their own habitation," their own 'oiketerion', a word used one other place,

2 Corinthians 5:1-3 KJV
1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Let me ask you . . . what did these "messengers" leave?

Much love!

Their "first estate" or "principality" (2 Peter 2:4 Jude 1:6) was the "princes" or "leaders" (see Numbers 16:2).

Gk “who did not keep their own domain.”

Numbers 16:2 and rebelled against Moses, along with some of the Israelites, 250 leaders of the community, chosen from the assembly, famous men.

AND

16:10 He has brought you near and all your brothers, the sons of Levi, with you. Do you now seek the priesthood also?

They were not happy to remain in their allotted position in the body of Israel, so sought to usurp Moses and Aaron and take the leadership to themselves.

The earth opened and swallowed them and their families whole.

F2F

 

[Heart2Soul]

Can explain how fallen angels is a comparison to those false prophets and teachers who were in Israel and in Christianity today? Not said sarcastically but have you seen a fallen angel? And if they are chained and cast into darkness being ineffective whats the point?

Satan: deceived the fallen angels
False teachers/prophets: deceive man through false doctrine and prophesies...
Note: I was in Utah on a job and I remember seeing billboards warning people that Jesus would return May 2011...the leader and followers invest thousands of dollars getting the message out...

His 2011 prophecy got widespread attention, including “Rapture Parties” hosted by atheists who wanted to “ridicule and poke fun at the fools.” It gave one man the opportunity to create a fake business that offered to care for the pets of believers swept up by the Rapture.

His March 2012 statement, which in many ways amounted to the final time many people heard from Camping, expressed regret for the predictions, which had led many followers to sell all their possessions in anticipation of the end of the world.

 

[face2face]

Satan: deceived the fallen angels
False teachers/prophets:

Where do you get this from?